Hypothetical: Divinity directly revealed to you

[Ben Kenobi]

At least your position as a believer makes things much more simple than for an atheist.

It helps when UR does not get into specifics as to the 'revelation' received.

Rufus:

Then, technically, aren't all religions part of God's creation? An dthen, techically, aren't those Jews, Christians, and Muslims who declare their religion the One True Religion actually blasphemers?

Christians rely partially on Jewish revelation, Muslims on Jews and Christians. On this aspect each religion should assert their interdependency.

The only reason we think we've got scripture more right that the rest is because of the resurrection. Jews and Moslems have less credible explanations for the resurrection than Christians do.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by obiwan18
It helps when UR does not get into specifics as to the 'revelation' received.

Big Crunch didn't go into specifics either, but that didn't stop the usual suspects from rolling their eyes in disgust at the stubborn atheists who refuse to see the truth...

I'm genuinely curious to see how the usual suspects respond to UR's hypothetical -- my hand's poised over the "rolleyes" button.

[Dauphin]

The responses are pretty much what I expected. No-one has said they will change their views or actions in any meaningful way. It seems that both sides will just interpret things in whatever way is necessary to retain the status quo of their worldview and lifestyle.

For those who gave response like "well I don't know what he wants so I will not really change", would you try to conform to the wishes of a deity, no matter how logical/illogical difficult/easy moral/immoral they may seem to you.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
would you try to conform to the wishes of a deity, no matter how logical/illogical difficult/easy moral/immoral they may seem to you.

I don't know. But it is possible that I reject something clearly immoral a deity demands to me. I'm not Abraham (was it him who nearly sacrificed his son ? )

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
For those who gave response like "well I don't know what he wants so I will not really change", would you try to conform to the wishes of a deity, no matter how logical/illogical difficult/easy moral/immoral they may seem to you.

I'd first require proof that this deity is entirely benevolent. If there's a chance that the deity might order me to do something immoral (that the deity knows to be immoral) then I'd take anything that the deity said/wished with a hefty grain of salt.

BTW, it's customary that the person who gives a hypothetical eventually answers his own hypothetical, if for no other reason than that comments on our responses tend to come off as self-righteous twattery otherwise.

[Az]

For those who gave response like "well I don't know what he wants so I will not really change", would you try to conform to the wishes of a deity, no matter how logical/illogical difficult/easy moral/immoral they may seem to you.

It depends.

I probably won't. If he created me, and knows what will I do, he shouldn't be too surprised and/or enraged. Knowing the future is and then being pissed off about it, Esp. when you can change it is pretty ****ing stupid. Even a mere mortal like me knows it.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Big Crunch

For those who gave response like "well I don't know what he wants so I will not really change", would you try to conform to the wishes of a deity, no matter how logical/illogical difficult/easy moral/immoral they may seem to you.

I would seek for help, that is pretty much one can do, as you have no chance of being not even close to perfect in traditional Judeo/Christian style... anyway what does trying mean? Trying to be an actetic guy for example... giving this up giving that up... when in the end you finish like a lunatic? No point is there? If there is some divine presence than they have some responisbilities too - namely help if they expect you to be one way or another...

[Az]

Now, if heaven would exist, THEN, we could start talking.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Azazel
Now, if heaven would exist, THEN, we could start talking.

The only questions are "What is heaven" , and can I make it - what is on the "terms and conditions" page

[Az]

Yeah, heaven changes things. If heaven is everything I ever wanted, and everyone will have his own personal heaven, I am prepared to walk quite the mileage for god.

[Mercator]

Rufus

I'm an atheist, but there really are only two moments I could think of when God could possibly want to finally "reveal" himself. Either the Apocalypse is upon us, or he finally decides to set things straight and gets rid of all the bad in us.

In the first case, there's not much to do except hope for a ticket to paradise.

As for the second case, I can't really imagine how that could be done, except by "resetting the Matrix" so to speak, a global brainwash. Because in any other case, people are going to get disappointed. What about all the non Judeo-Christians? Had they all been living a lie? And even among Judeo-Christians. Just about every single person has a different view on what God is supposed to represent. What about the different views on homosexuality, abortion, birth-control, evolution, or even just the idea of the need to go to church etc. How can they possibly be reconciled? If God lets us know what he intended, will all of humanity suddenly bow to him and live according to his views (even those that would have opposing views)? God could only peacefully achieve that by making us nothing more than willing puppets without any free will, I think (not exactly the sign of a benign God). If he doesn't do that there would be massive uprisings. People who have been "speaking to God" will feel betrayed and perhaps even claim it's not God, but the Devil who has shown himself and is tempting us.

Well, there's also a third option. God doesn't do either of the above, but simply show his face and say hello (whether he then also reveals his true intentions won't make much difference, I guess). Again, I think this will only result in utter chaos.

In other words, even if there is a God, I don't expect he'd ever reveal himself... If he would, it would mean the end of civilization as we know it. So the question you're asking would be moot.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by loinburger
BTW, it's customary that the person who gives a hypothetical eventually answers his own hypothetical, if for no other reason than that comments on our responses tend to come off as self-righteous twattery otherwise.

I'm asking the questions here.

I'm just interested in views of people with different starting beliefs, there is obviously no right or wrong answer.

If I were somehow made 100% aware of a God I really don't know how I would (re)act. The only thing I could say for certain is that I would try to find out as much about Him as possible. I would probably treat the God like I would a parent - trust Him, respect Him, but be willing to question Him.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Mercator
God could only peacefully achieve that by making us nothing more than willing puppets without any free will, I think (not exactly the sign of a benign God).

Ooooh, free will, that is a good topic point for the existence of evil. But that's for another thread.

[Soul Survivor]

none of us could possibly comprehend God's will

anyway, eternity gets pretty lonely - God could have created the universe so that he could watch it unfold, like a play albeit on a much larger stage. even the omnipotent need something to do.

I also doubt that good people will be punished simply for believing in the wrong religion.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by obiwan18


Without further clarification, I would conclude that these were demons.

An interesting take on things, Obi-Wan, old friend. I will just say this, I tend to strongly agree with the great naturalist, Audobon, "If the book and the bird disagree, trust the bird". :

[Sava]

I've had many things happen that most would consider to be "fateful", but I still am skepticle. I'd need a direct revelation to believe in a deity. Even with such revelation, I'd no doubt get into an argument with God.

= Soul Survivor!

DL!!!

[Spiffor]

I think we should congratulate Obiwan, because only him had the nads to answer UR's question :

Assume the divinity is not of a Judeo-Christianity leaning.

How would that knowledge affect your life, esp. when you are a Christian?

Obviously, that's because the question was unnoticed, so I think it is good to repeat it to know the reactions of other Christians.

[Jon Miller]

it would depend on what the revelation was

however, beleiving in nonhuman beings who are against God (sure, call them devils), I would be careful of (basically my inital assumption would be in life with Obiwan's)

Jon Miller

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I think we should congratulate Obiwan, because only him had the nads to answer UR's question

I took monkspider's post as an implicit response to the question.

[Spiffor]

you're right. I wonder how I could overlook that.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
Isn't that the very definition of 'omnipotent'?

Interestingly enough, there are a number of problems associated with the various "omni-" business.

First of all, the Christian god is never described as being omnipotent, omniscient, or omnibenevolent in the bible. These doctrines were added by the Church later. However, most Protestants accepted them without a critical examination.

Secondly, even the theologicans themselves cannot agree upon what they mean.

Thirdly, they lead to all sorts of interesting problems and paradoxes. For example, can an omnipotent being make a rock so heavy that even it can't lift?

Forthly, if these "omni-" business is beyond human comprehension, it makes the Christian god totally unknowable to us. Thus, it makes no sense whatsoever to have any relevations or evidence wrt such an entity.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by obiwan18
Without further clarification, I would conclude that these were demons.

Okay, how would that affect your life as a whole? How would that affect your view that the foundation of your religion is shown to be a myth - in fact, very much like the rest of them?

[monkspider]

UR: God is quite knowable, although I wouldn't quite label him a Christian God, Muslim God, Hindu God, etc. He is all of these things, and yet none of them at the same time.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Big Crunch
For those who gave response like "well I don't know what he wants so I will not really change", would you try to conform to the wishes of a deity, no matter how logical/illogical difficult/easy moral/immoral they may seem to you.

I'll ask him, "Do you throw tantrums like it said in the bible?"

In all likihood, even if the Judeo-Christian god exists, I'd reckon he/she/it wouldn't be something like what it is said in the bible.

Even Christians differ on the nature of their own god, so we could of course use our own interpretations.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by monkspider
UR: God is quite knowable, although I wouldn't quite label him a Christian God, Muslim God, Hindu God, etc. He is all of these things, and yet none of them at the same time.

How could we know a being if it cannot be bounded by logic, which is the foundation of our knowledge? It's like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


How could we know a being if it cannot be bounded by logic, which is the foundation of our knowledge? It's like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

A reasonable question of course, my science-minded friend. But there is a logic that exists that is beyond our comprehension, the logic of the real world which we are all from. I have been around these parts long enough to know that you like to have everything to be able to be explained within currently existing scientific theories, and that's very admirable, such a perspective to life is not without it's advantages. But ultimately, you will end up here with me.
But hey, don't take my word for it, in fact, don't even spare it a thought. Just enjoy the ride. You're doing just fine.

[Ben Kenobi]

How would that affect your view that the foundation of your religion is shown to be a myth - in fact, very much like the rest of them?

UR:

You think that I grew up in Christianity? If you want, I'll PM some of the stuff I used to do.

Now I don't desire these things. I like my life with God, having a much better relationship with Him then before. I talk to Him and a few times He answers my prayers.
So what do I need of my old life?

It's like trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

Thirdly, they lead to all sorts of interesting problems and paradoxes. For example, can an omnipotent being make a rock so heavy that even it can't lift?

Awesome! One down and I don't have to do any heavy lifting. Thanks UR. The problem is not in that God is not omnipotent, but in our conception of omnipotence. We cannot grasp the concept because we are limited beings.

First of all, the Christian god is never described as being omnipotent, omniscient, or omnibenevolent in the bible. These doctrines were added by the Church later. However, most Protestants accepted them without a critical examination.

*ahem*
Pulls out dog-eared Bible.

To start, here's the passage at the end of Job 40:9-14

God tries to put His omnipotence in ways we can understand.


"Do you have an arm like God's, and can your voice thunder like his? Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor, and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.

Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low, look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand.

Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave. Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you."

If you want, read to chapter 41 after the end of the lengthly description of God's power.

2 Chronicles 20:6

This testimony and prayer God answers faithfully.

"O LORD , God of our fathers, are you not the God who is in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. Power and might are in your hand, and no one can withstand you."

Romans 4:20-21

Abraham held up as an example for both Christians and Jews.


"Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised."

And this is just a start. For God's omnipotence is expressed differently then the formula theologians use, which is a tool of men to help them to understand.

Please continue your exposition on what the bible teaches without reading the bible.

[Ben Kenobi]

2. I dispose of without evidence of contradictions between theologians, and examples of how they differ.

Finally,

Forthly, if these "omni-" business is beyond human comprehension, it makes the Christian god totally unknowable to us.

A problem indeed! If God is omnipotent, then unless He wants us to, we have no possibility of knowing Him.

Exodus 8:9-15

Moses said to Pharaoh, "I leave to you the honor of setting the time for me to pray for you and your officials and your people that you and your houses may be rid of the frogs, except for those that remain in the Nile."

"Tomorrow," Pharaoh said.
Moses replied, "It will be as you say, so that you may know there is no one like the LORD our God. The frogs will leave you and your houses, your officials and your people; they will remain only in the Nile."

After Moses and Aaron left Pharaoh, Moses cried out to the LORD about the frogs he had brought on Pharaoh. And the LORD did what Moses asked. The frogs died in the houses, in the courtyards and in the fields. They were piled into heaps, and the land reeked of them. But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.

Just one example, among many in the OT where God says, I will do this so that you know I am God."


As for a personal relationship with God,

Read all of Psalm 139, which begins with these words,
in verses 1-4.


O LORD , you have searched me
and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.


God understands this feeling, so this is why we see Jesus sent, from John 1:16-18

"From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[5] ,[6] who is at the Father's side, has made him known."

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
First of all, the Christian god is never described as being omnipotent, omniscient, or omnibenevolent in the bible. These doctrines were added by the Church later. However, most Protestants accepted them without a critical examination.

It does make sense for a creator being who make the universe to be ominpotent - after all, creating the universe can't be that easy. I would rather say He is omnipotent, but with self-imposed restrictions based apon his character.

Secondly, even the theologicans themselves cannot agree upon what they mean.

Being a theologian foes not automatically make one right. I am sure plenty of atheists disagree too.

Thirdly, they lead to all sorts of interesting problems and paradoxes. For example, can an omnipotent being make a rock so heavy that even it can't lift?

These are entirely bogus arguments, because they are based on our perception of the world - not God's. Why chouldn't an omnipotent being be able to lift such a rock? Traditional logic does not apply.

Forthly, if these "omni-" business is beyond human comprehension, it makes the Christian god totally unknowable to us. Thus, it makes no sense whatsoever to have any relevations or evidence wrt such an entity.

I disagree. One doesn't have to understand everything about someone in order to have a meaning ful relationship with them. Do you know everything there is to know about all your friends? Do you understand them all competely?