Affirmative action..for Men.

[GePap]

This is generally based on todays 60minutes, but given the general sex ration of this board, it will do nicely.

Currently in the US, womne outpreform men academically at all levesl, from Kindergarden to Graduate school. Many top universities have a 40-60 male-female ratio. Soon, law schools and medical schools will be predominatly female, leaving men only the tecnical fields, but perhaps not for long even then.

This leads to several questions: Should universiites allow in less qualified men over womne to insure that they do not have rations akin to 70-30 female male, or they should simply say: best person gets in, period?

Second: is the fault of this difference Feminisim, as many conservatives say, or is it that male academic achievement is seen as inferior to male atheltic achievement in schools, and thus if your boy is a C student, well good, as long as he lays good football?

or perhaps is it that , even while females are outperforming men academically at all levels, they will still get paid less than men when they join the workforce, so who cares, cause even if you can compete with the women academically, as a man you will get more money? And so who cares?

[Shi Huangdi]

"This leads to several questions: Should universiites allow in less qualified men over womne to insure that they do not have rations akin to 70-30 female male, or they should simply say: best person gets in, period?"

Best person gets in, period. I don't think women are intrinsically smarter then men, if men don't work as hard as women do then too bad for them.

[DinoDoc]

Fuel for the thread

[Kuciwalker]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being lazy. I love being lazy.

[Shi Huangdi]

Here is the CBS piece Gepap menitoned:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in527678.shtml

(CBS) Remember when girls became nurses and not doctors? Stenographers, not CEOs? Teachers, not principals?

Well, that's not the way it is any more. Thirty years after the passage of equal opportunity laws, girls are graduating from high school and college and going into professions and businesses in record numbers.

Now, it's the boys who could use a little help in school, where they're falling behind their female counterparts.

And if you think it's just boys from the inner cities, think again. It's happening in all segments of society, in all 50 states. That's why more and more educators are calling for a new national effort to put boys on an equal footing with their sisters. Lesley Stahl reports.

At graduation ceremonies last June at Hanover High School in Massachusetts, it was the ninth year in a row that a girl was on the podium as school valedictorian. Girls also took home nearly all the honors, including the science prize, says principal Peter Badalament.

“[Girls] tend to dominate the landscape academically right now,” he says, even in math and science.

The school's advanced placement classes, which admit only the most qualified students, are often 70 percent to 80 percent girls. This includes calculus. And in AP biology, there was not a single boy.

According to Badalment, three out of four of the class leadership positions, including the class presidents, are girls. In the National Honor Society, almost all of the officers are girls. The yearbook editor is a girl.

While there are statistically more boy geniuses than girl geniuses, far more boys than girls are found at the very bottom of the academic ranks. School districts from Massachusetts to Minnesota to California report that boys are withdrawing from the life of schools, and girls are taking over.

“Girls outperform boys in elementary school, middle school, high school, and college, and graduate school,” says Dr. Michael Thompson, a school psychologist who writes about the academic problems of boys in his book, "Raising Cain." He says that after decades of special attention, girls are soaring, while boys are stagnating.

“Girls are being told, 'Go for it, you can do it. Go for it, you can do it.' They are getting an immense amount of support,” he says. “Boys hear that the way to shine is athletically. And boys get a lot of mixed messages about what it means to be masculine and what it means to be a student. Does being a good student make you a real man? I don't think so… It is not cool.”

“Girls don't necessarily get teased as much if they do well,” says Meredith, a graduating senior at Hanover High.

“I think that boys are more, you know, expected to be the star athletes, to bring home the football title,” says Tom, another graduating senior.

Their classmate Colby agrees: “I think maybe girls are a little more goal-oriented, where guys, in general, are more apt to go with the flow, like, 'Well, if I do well in high school, that's great. If I don't, hey, that's fine.'”

The picture doesn't get much brighter for young men when they get to college. Campuses are now nearly 60 percent female, with women earning 170,000 more bachelor degrees each year than men. Women are streaming into business schools and medical schools, and will be the majority at the nation's law schools. At some colleges, they're getting so many more qualified women applicants than men applicants that the schools are doing something that might shock you.

“To make a class that's 50/50, they're practicing affirmative action on behalf of boys,” says Thompson. “Girls are so outperforming boys in school right now, one statistician said he took it out to its absurd endpoint and said at the present trend, the last man to get his bachelor's degree will do so in 2068.”

Even if that never happens, the trend is ominous. Boys are falling further behind girls in reading and writing, and still, there's no public outcry the way there was for girls, and we wanted to find out why.

“All the rhetoric in the gender equity movement is about how schools shortchange girls. There was almost nothing about how we could reach out to boys,” says Christina Hoff Sommers, a former college professor, now at the American Enterprise Institute. She blames the lack of attention to boys' problems on feminists.

“In order to advance girls, they exaggerated how vulnerable girls were, and they understated the needs of boys. They depicted boys as ... the privileged beneficiaries of a patriarchal society that oppresses women, demeans them and trains young men to be sexist, misogynists,” she says.

Sommers targets groups like the AAUW, the American Association of University Women, and feminist scholars. She says they published a blitz of studies and popular books depicting girls in crisis at precisely the moment when statistics showed girls were catching up to boys or moving past them in most academic areas. Sommers says the efforts on behalf of girls turned into what she calls a war against boys.

“I don't have a war. I am not in favor of saying that girls ought to get anything over boys,” says Jacqueline Woods, president of the AAUW.

Sommers calls the AAUW and other similar organizations the "gender bias industry.” Woods disagrees: “Most people understand that gender equity is about making sure that both boys and girls have equal access to educational opportunities.”

Sommers also accuses women teachers of favoring girls over boys. She says they reward classroom behavior that girls find easier, like sitting still, and punish boys for being, well, boys.

“If boys are obstreperous and high-spirited and competitive, which most of them are, this is seen as behavior which is not tolerated. They see that as an expression of a toxic masculinity,” she says.

Thompson disagrees with this: “I do not think that feminism has ruined the lives of boys.” He blames fathers.

“Where are the men? Why aren't men advocating for boys? We know that boys who have fathers who go to PTA meetings, those boys get better grades," says Thompson, who believes there is a clear correlation when a father's involved.

“If your father only shows up for town soccer and town football and never goes to PTA meetings, well, duh, doesn't take too much to figure out what your father values.”

“Every small town in Texas turns out on Friday night to watch boys play football, and it's lacrosse in Maryland, and it's ice hockey in Minnesota and Massachusetts. Boys are demagogued, but not for their academic work.”

He says that could be fixed in large part if schools recruited more male teachers.

“I had a teacher at my school, and this teacher said, you know, 'I'm the first man they've ever known who liked poetry and taught poetry,' and this man is also their coach,” Thompson says.

At Jefferson Academy in Long Beach, Calif., Franklin Goodman fits this bill. He coaches, and also teaches seventh grade math and science, where the ratio of male to female teachers is 50/50. That's unusual enough, but there's another big difference. During academic periods, the genders are separated, boys in one room and girls in another.

“First of all, there aren't any female distractions for them,” Goodman says. The boys told Stahl that other kids call them 'gay' for going to class with all boys, but they admit it's been good for them. They learn more, they told her, without girls.

The teachers use more physical activity and competition in the all-boy classrooms and tailor the courses to boys' tastes, with more books on topics like war and science fiction.

The school must be doing something right. Test scores for boys have jumped dramatically.

Why aren’t boys’ academic problems a bigger issue? “There's a little cultural secret at work here. Boys go out in the work world and earn more money,” says Thompson. “Nobody wants to admit what's happening, which is, 'You girls work very hard, but sorry, ladies, when you get out there, we're not going to pay you equally. And you boys, it's OK. You can loaf through school. You'll get good jobs afterwards.'”

But, Thompson says, there's going to be a cold shower when the country realizes that women are completely dominating the numbers in professional schools. “We can't have a country of women in white-collar jobs and men in blue-collar jobs. That's not going to be good for this society."

[St Leo]

The problem is that an effort has been put into suppressing the culture of non-achievement among girls but not among boys. I think.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by GePap
or perhaps is it that , even while females are outperforming men academically at all levels, they will still get paid less than men when they join the workforce, so who cares, cause even if you can compete with the women academically, as a man you will get more money? And so who cares?

perhaps women have to work harder in order to be successfull, so they do.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Another theory (kind of the Feminism argument, I guess) is that the way schools run today tie directly into the strengths females have in learning, ie, sitting still and paying attention. Boys are more creative and better at spacial awareness. So some argue that teaching should be focused on boys' strengths as well.

[TCO]

I read somewhere that women with similar academic backgrounds who are childless and unmarried do as well in dollar compensation as men who are childless and unmarried. I think a lot of the difference in pay comes from natural decisions that couples make to have children or to let the man concentrate on his career and the women act in more of a support role.

I really haven't noticed women getting slighted on pay in the work world. If anything there is a minor amount of affirmative action benmefit to women in male dominated companies. Women Ph.D. chemists were way more likely to get company visits at job time. And a black guy? They really got interested. Not sure that it really converted over to a big benefit for them. But you could see the interest.

[St Leo]

Another theory (kind of the Feminism argument, I guess) is that the way schools run today tie directly into the strengths females have in learning, ie, sitting still and paying attention. Boys are more creative and better at spacial awareness. So some argue that teaching should be focused on boys' strengths as well.

Of course, schools have been run this way for quite a long time and predate significant female enrollment.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GePap
.... but given the general sex ration of this board, it will do nicely.

I'd estimate the sex ration of this board at somewhere around once a year on average.

[Spiffor]

I am generally cautious towards affirmative action and all kinds of postive discriminations. I think affirmative action for men should be used only if there is a really significant unbalance in college, and if there are real social factors that make the boys negatively discriminated upon.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I am generally cautious towards affirmative action and all kinds of postive discriminations. I think affirmative action for men should be used only if there is a really significant unbalance in college, and if there are real social factors that make the boys negatively discriminated upon.

I say no. Cane the little weeners. I mean the weeners. Not their weeners.

[Timexwatch]

UP WITH THE AMAZON NATION!

[Spiffor]

Cane the little weeners.

Now this is purely evil

[Sikander]

Originally posted by GP
I read somewhere that women with similar academic backgrounds who are childless and unmarried do as well in dollar compensation as men who are childless and unmarried. I think a lot of the difference in pay comes from natural decisions that couples make to have children or to let the man concentrate on his career and the women act in more of a support role.

I really haven't noticed women getting slighted on pay in the work world. If anything there is a minor amount of affirmative action benmefit to women in male dominated companies. Women Ph.D. chemists were way more likely to get company visits at job time. And a black guy? They really got interested. Not sure that it really converted over to a big benefit for them. But you could see the interest.

The difference in pay (aka "the gender gap") comes almost entirely from decisions to multi-task career and family (ie leaving work for a few years to spend time with the baby) and the fact that men do almost all of the really dangerous work in this country, racking up something like 97% of all work-related fatalities. If someone is merely being a bigot there are a number of simple legal remedies for women. I have never seen a woman slighted in this way in all of my years in the working world.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Another theory (kind of the Feminism argument, I guess) is that the way schools run today tie directly into the strengths females have in learning, ie, sitting still and paying attention. Boys are more creative and better at spacial awareness. So some argue that teaching should be focused on boys' strengths as well.

We have to teach both genders well, that is a point well worth making. That may mean that we have to seperate the genders for some classes, or track people into the sorts of learning environments that they function well in regardless of their gender. Certainly we have a lot of work to do in early childhood education where the gender differences are most prominent and educational attitudes are easiest to form for better or worse. This will not be easy or cheap, but if we want schools to be more than just elaborate daycare centers then we have to take a look at the big picture and make some changes.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yeah, very true, Sikander. A lot of times boy's are just passed over as being naturally disruptive and just 'bad learners' when they shouldn't be dismissed, but instead helped along.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yeah, very true, Sikander. A lot of times boy's are just passed over as being naturally disruptive and just 'bad learners' when they shouldn't be dismissed, but instead helped along.

I'm a great example of someone who has been both helped and harmed by the education system. On the one hand I have a high IQ and educated parents, which meant that I could already read a bit before I went to school. On the other I was young developmentally and didn't have the advantage of attending kindergarten. I could barely scrawl my name in ugly block letters as we were learning to write in cursive. To this day my handwriting sucks, in part because I developed a bad attitude about it from frustration.

When I was in elementary school tracking was a very popular tool. At that time this meant that they would often form a class of the best students from one or two different ages. We moved a lot back then, and it was my luck that I got into three of these situations in different school systems, always the youngest of a two year spread advanced class. This was great for me as it offered the most challenge and excitement. When I got dumped into a regular classroom later on though (another system) the difference was so depressing that my interest in school never really recovered. By that time I had learned enough to study stuff on my own, and I did so to the neglect of the things we were learning at a snail's pace in class.

Gender wise things were better for boys back then. Recess was regular and physical education was stressed much more then than now. I always looked forward to both, as my energy was sometimes an impediment that led to frequent trips to the vice principal for punishment / counseling. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been without the physical outlet provided by recess and phys. ed.

In many ways I think that given the environment in schools today I would have never gone to college had I experienced it first-hand. I barely got through high school as it was, and only got into a halfway decent University due to high test scores. By the time I got to college my study habits were so bad that it was an ordeal to get through a lot of the coursework, unless it was a language class, economics, social science, history or biology I probably was marginal at best.

Interestingly, the best schools I ever attended were in the military. Those schools obviously could never afford to cater to a feminine learning style, quite the opposite. But dammit they managed to teach their lessons to a wide variety of people, men and women, from different classes and ethnic backgrounds, with often very different IQs and educational histories, and the results were astoundingly good in comparison to the public schools or university system. The method they used was very effective. Namely, they would teach the skill and immediately test it. No one slipped through the cracks. Students who quickly absorbed the material were sent to tutor those who had trouble, which reinforced the lesson for one while it gave another perspective and individual attention. It's simple and effective.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Very interesting take on things. I also agree with your last paragraph in that we need more schools that have different styles of learning. The problem is that kids learn in different ways (especially the genders), but there is one cookie cutter way of learning in the public school system. It's a major problem. Not everyone is the same, and they shouldn't be treated that way.

[Kidicious]

I was a disruptive student also. In elementary I got plenty of spankings. For some reason I did well in 9th and 10th grade. Then in 11th grade I just dropped out and took the GED. I figured correctly that I wouldn't be able to handle college yet. So I joined the Navy (had to get my diploma first). When I did go to college I got straight As. Maybe the military taught me discipline. Or it could be that I was just older.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Kidicious
I was a disruptive student also. In elementary I got plenty of spankings. For some reason I did well in 9th and 10th grade. Then in 11th grade I just dropped out and took the GED. I figured correctly that I wouldn't be able to handle college yet. So I joined the Navy (had to get my diploma first). When I did go to college I got straight As. Maybe the military taught me discipline. Or it could be that I was just older.

Every time I hear a story like this I get jealous. I knew for a fact that I wanted to be in the Army when I was younger, but my parents and school counselors were unanimously against it. My parents in particular exerted a strong influence, I guess in part because my mother was a physician and my father was a college professor. Not having enough self-confidence to go my own way, I puttered through high school and enrolled in college. I wasted 5 years there before I decided to quit and join the Army. It was one of the best things I ever did, albeit a little late. When I got out of the service I no longer had the patience to screw around in school. I took courses that would directly benefit my employability, and went to work. It has paid off handsomely. I'm not rich, but I am in a financial situation that most people in this country would be envious of, no debt, a fair amount of equity, and a decent salary of which I save about 25%. And I got there by doing what I wanted to do, not my parents or counselors.

[Nubclear]

Finally, Americans realizing the flaws of their current educational system.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sikander
In many ways I think that given the environment in schools today I would have never gone to college had I experienced it first-hand. I barely got through high school as it was, and only got into a halfway decent University due to high test scores. By the time I got to college my study habits were so bad that it was an ordeal to get through a lot of the coursework, unless it was a language class, economics, social science, history or biology I probably was marginal at best.

This is me.

[TCO]

My problem is I am lazy. I respond best to an in your face drill sergeant method of learning. Somebody who tells me that I can't possibly learn this **** and that I'm an idiot will get my attention.

I wish school was more like sports. Actually once I played football in last part of High School, I started seeing how practice leads to performance and that doing math problems is analagous to doing ball-stripping drills as a d-back.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Finally, Americans realizing the flaws of their current educational system

Cause you would love it so if American males got military type training .

And we've always realized the flaws. You must be blind not to notice that .

[Shi Huangdi]

I don't see why you are so quick to blame the system here in this case. I say it is the boy's own fault if they aren't learning here. So it's the schools fault if these boys can't sit down through class, do their homework, study? What these boys who are failing to perform need here is discipline, so they can catch up with the boys and girls who can do well academically.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
I say it is the boy's own fault if they aren't learning here.

I wouldn't go quite that far -- it's certainly the boys' fault to some extent, but it's also the system's fault for imposing an artificially disciplinarian environment on them. School was hell for me right up until high school, since the entire point of elementary school and jr. high was to teach me to learn how to behave. **** that, I was behaving just fine right up until they forced me to be bored out of my mind in a stuffy classroom, learning at a snail's pace. Half the time I'd get in trouble just for asking too many questions (aka "disrupting class" or "making the teacher feel intellectually inadequate"), which in turn spurred me on to get in trouble the other half of the time out of a need for revenge on my idiot teachers.

And what was the point of all of this unnecessary discipline? As soon as I got to high school, and especially when I got to college, I was suddenly encouraged to ask questions. It was as though my fairy godmother waved her wand, and I suddenly went from "being disruptive" to "showing initiative." Every job I've ever had has been the same way -- my bosses like the fact that I don't just sit there like a bump on a log. Looking back, I can see why the first nine years of my education were utter shite -- they had absolutely nothing to do with real life, at all. They should have just pumped me full of sedatives for six hours a day for nine years -- it would have made their jobs a lot easier.

Is it my fault that I was a disruptive student? Sure, it's my fault to some extent, I could have just kept my mouth shut for nine years. Do I regret being a disruptive student? Hell no. Those first nine years of learning to be disruptive have certainly paid off. I pity my brother to some extent -- he learned how to behave too well.

[Oerdin]

As a male I rather liked the 40-60 splite at our universities. It meant that even a bastard like myself could get laid on a friday night.

[Shi Huangdi]

I think you misunderstood what I meant by discipline, loinburger. I don't mean students shouldn't be able to ask questions, in fact every HS teacher and professor I have come across encourages students to participate in class. There is a distinction here though between active learning and class participation, and genuinely disruptive behavior that just interefers with the class. If you have been to HS you should know what I am talking about...