AU208: Total Eternal Forever War - Reports and Comments

[mimi]

I did manage to squeeze in a few turns last night - wiped out the English, actually. My riders had a hard time on the first town they came across in England, but once that fell, flipped, fell, flipped and finally fell (I wanted to keep it as a toe-hold on this new continent since I hadn't looked at the map so didn't know how big it was) I was all set to take the rest of England. (next time I'm bringing my own settler but... can't build riders and settlers...)

Nice bonus in England too - they had the Hanging Gardens and the wonder that increases all your cathedrals (can never remember which one it is). I just had time to get rid of the English and keep the other civs from building among my lands (I have no idea why they have to send a settler-defender team to the landmass of a country they're at war with). I can never get to them before they plant though 'cause I couldn't get roads everywhere 'cause of the barbs so I don't get anything out of it.

Got a second leader too - used it to rush Smiths though perhaps I should've built an army so I can get those victorious army wonders... but I like not having to pay for things and figure I'll need my moola for researching. I should get another army when I head over to the next island which looks like India - most of my riders are elites now!

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Entertaining report, too bad you did not have a few horsemen roving around to stomp out any camps.
I set a few to prevent respawns.

I did have a few up there, but they kept losing to the barbs. I ended up sending several Immortals up there and they handled everything with nary a loss. The only barbs that ended up getting close to one of my towns was the horde in the screenshot. And they attacked a fortified spearman in a town with walls settled on a hill.

[mimi]

Perhaps I should show more bravery, but I have again packed in this game. I can't land in India. I just got caravels and they are running around with ironclads, lots and lots and lots of them so even if I live long enough to land (very rare), my 3 units are dead before I can get more over there to help. And baby is sending 4 calvary a turn to my original continent shores. Can't keep up if I can't get to them to kill them! I'm researching pretty fast but...

I think that's my weakest point - knowing what to research and when. Normally I trade so it doesn't really matter since I'll get all the techs from a civ for a flat price. When I have to research on my own, I don't know which techs would give me the best bang at the moment.

So I have to admit defeat again!

[Catt]

Nice report Rhothearill And special kudos to Nathan who looks to have this one beat

Originally posted by mimi
Can't keep up if I can't get to them to kill them! I'm researching pretty fast but...

I think that's my weakest point - knowing what to research and when. Normally I trade so it doesn't really matter since I'll get all the techs from a civ for a flat price . . .

I wonder if others who made it into the Industrial Age could comment on what I believed early in the game would be the most difficult challenge but that I didn't make it far enough to verify -- that researching, and keeping up / leading in science, would make for a formiddable end-game. Although I hadn't played Total War before, I had played a No-Trading Game in which trades were prohibited. The inability to trade techs, particularly once into the Industrial Age, was a serious handicap, and in that game the player at least had the luxury of employing a representative government (for the commerce bonus). My expectation in this game was that the meat grinder would really kick in around the end of the Middle Ages: (1) contact is made overseas; (2) war is declared; and (3) lonesome researching goes forward for the remainder of the game at a time when giant military leaps can be made (infantry, tanks, mech infantry). Add the possibility of a spurt by one or more scientific civs upon entry into the new age, and I anticipated that dealing with that challenge in Monarchy or Communism would be very, very tough . . . but of course didn't have to face it

Catt

[Rhothaerill]

Thanks Catt. I hope to have another report up by the end of the day. This one will take me through my current spot in the game. I haven't made it to the end of the Middle Ages yet, but I've been on par with all the other civs.

Hopefully I'll have more of a chance to play AU208 tonight. Haven't had much time this past week because of real life and trying to keep up with the democracy games.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Catt
I wonder if others who made it into the Industrial Age could comment on what I believed early in the game would be the most difficult challenge but that I didn't make it far enough to verify -- that researching, and keeping up / leading in science, would make for a formiddable end-game.

I think this may already have been commented on. Just a bit.

The other hurdles in this game can be overcome if you do the right thing.

I entered the Industrial age roughly level with the other civs but am now far enough behind that I wouldn't have a chance of getting the UN even if I could have skipped all the optional techs without disadvantage and got the ToE.

[vmxa1]

That about sums it up. You have a hard time getting to Monarchy and can not afford to switch to Republic at all.
Depending on when you get Communism, it is likely to not matter.
IMO you must get to India's land quickly after capturing England to get enough land to match them in research.
The lack of trading at all is very restraining on your ability to get tech.
Their lack of inter civ fighting makes them more robust.
The good news is that the ai is very poor at invading from over seas. This is why you need to get to India to prevent them from having strong units to counter attack you in a tag team.
Once you get a few cities form India and Hammy, they will not be able to resist and the others will soon be looking at your railed lands and not have any shot.
No need to invade the other two island at all.

[Rhothaerill]

Well, it's good to know that my future-planning strategy of building up to take on India was on the mark. I thought about taking the Americans on as the first oversea civ, but the Indians are smaller and appear to be less of a power. I want to be able to take and hold an area and the Indians appeared to be the best bet for that option.

[vmxa1]

Not to mention that IIRC they were a bit closer, so you need not be out on the ocean tiles an extra turn.
As it was, I lost a bunch of ships trying to land 4 caravels.
I sit the ones that got across on the coast until I had 4 and then dropped the troops on one city.

[Theseus]

I'm gonna get back to this over the weekend... Berserkers might help me get through it.

[Rhothaerill]

“Lord Xerxes our war with England fares poorly. We have lost many of our forces. And now we have raving barbarians pillaging our Northern front. What are we to do?”
“Train more forces do you hear me! NOW!”

With that declaration our great empire continued to produce many finely trained Immortals and horsemen. Deciding that the threat of the English overwhelming our remaining forces we sent a token force of our superior Immortals to deal with the barbarian incursion. Much of our fighting force was ferried to our base on the English continent to begin terrorizing the countryside and taking back what was ours. Persians reign supreme!

Game notes: As noted on my last AAR/DAR several barbarian hordes began to attack me, but not a single one proved detrimental. The horde near Sardis completely wasted itself attacking the city. My spearman lost only one hp and advanced to elite after being attacked by nine straight horsemen. I lost some horseman units, but the five Immortals I sent north to deal with the other hordes did the trick. During this time my research continued apace and I entered the Middle Ages only ten or so turns after the second of the AI civs did. Being a scientific civ I also received monotheism as my free tech (bummer, I wanted Feudalism ).

“Our war effort has been righted Lord Xerxes. The English offensive has been thrown down and utterly destroyed. We are again preparing an assault on their cities.”
“Good, good. We will strike quickly and hold the cities this time. And what of our people’s desires? They are intelligent and have realized there must be more to this world of ours.”
“We are working on that your excellency. We have sent ships out to roam the world and see what they can see.”

Excellent news. The faith of our people that there was more to this world was correct. We have contacted a tribe called the Americans and their leader Abraham Lincoln. And what luck…for a mere few gold they will direct us to three other tribes!

Personal note: I have had a tremendous amount of luck in this game. First taking Rome with but one lone warrior, and now having a galley spend three turns in the ocean without sinking. As this is my first AU course and no one knows me or my principles too well yet I wanted to state for the record that I have followed the spirit of the AU courses completely and have not reloaded a single save if something didn’t go the way I wanted it to go (my march on London for example). I used to do that when I started civ3, but I have since learned that it ruins the fun of “climbing out of the hole”.

Game notes: I had a desire to contact the other civs for a variety of reasons. I felt fairly safe on my own continent as I had the English locked down on their own continent and none of the other civs knew where we were. I wanted first of all to acquire the maps of the world, second to plunge all the other civs into my total war to slow down their research, and third to find out exactly where they were in the tech race and activate my Great Library to catch up. Imagine my surprise when the only tech they had that I didn’t was the Republic, which I wasn’t going to bother with. Thanks to my high research rate and free tech I’d kept up with all of them. But now I decided to slow it down a bit. I set my research to 0% with one scientist for a 40 turn rate for Engineering. I needed gold in a bad way for upgrades and rush-builds on the English continent and the Great Library would keep me competitive in the tech race until education now that I knew the other civs.

On the war front my newly landed Immortals and horseman units were finally able to punch through the swordsman forces and cut the English iron off. No more swordsmen for them. As soon as London fell to me again I also made a push to cut off their lone supply of horses to keep them from building anything but archers and spearmen. All of the rest of their cities fell to me relatively quickly, though York cost me about a third of my forces. England was mine!

More to come later…

[vmxa1]

Sweet

[Rhothaerill]

My AAR/DARs have now caught up the point in the game where I currently am. As it stands now I only have about three cities to build to completely fill my main continent and the islands off of it. Plus I hold the entire English continent now. My current tech research is Invention and I have received from the Great Library both Chivalry and Theology. Education will most likely come soon so I have started my research back up after gaining a significant amount of gold. I am at nearly the cap on my “free” units under Monarchy, but I need a lot more if I’m going to take another continent soon. I lost a lot of my attack units taking the last few English cities. Looking to the future, I intend to completely ignore most of the unnecessary techs in the Middle Ages. The only two I might go after are Economics if I have a shot at Adam Smith’s, and Military Tradition for an upgrade to cavalry. But that’s in the future and might change depending on future events. For now I intend to upgrade my horseman units and build hordes of knights. The Immortals have served their purpose in getting me to this point and I will now need a more mobile army.

After looking over the other four civs I have set my sights on the Indians as noted in a post above. They appear to be the smallest and weakest and I intend to hit them full steam ahead as soon as possible. I haven’t upgraded many of my units yet as I’ve been pre-building Sun-Tzu’s for Leonardo’s workshop. I have several horseman units that I built specifically for upgrade and that will save me much production power later. There are currently three wonders that I can build (Sun Tzu, Leo’s in a few turns, and the Sistine Chapel). I received a great leader on the second to last city battle against the English so I have a decision to make now. Sistine Chapel is basically worthless to me right now. My citizens are just happy enough under martial law and I have not built nor do I intend to build any cathedrals in the near future. It would only affect my main continent anyway. The same goes for Sun Tzu’s. I already have barracks in my important cities, plus a few that will be producing units soon, so that would save me around 15-20gpt, but since it’s effects are only for my main continent, that would be as much as it gets. I believe Leonardo’s will save me much more gold in the long run, but because I have a GL I can build two wonders. My last option is a palace jump to the English continent. There is much corruption and not much production down there, whereas my main continent could handle the palace loss because of a centralized Forbidden Palace. As I write this I’m currently leaning toward the latter route. I had fully planned on a palace jump at some point and this one will kickstart the English cities before an eventual palace jump to the other continent (through hopefully gaining a GL against the Indians). I will wait until I’m near completion of Leo’s though.

For the AAR/DARs to come I don’t intend to write any more "Xerxes’ advisor" dialogue. There is too much going on in the game now to continue it, and the posts were quite long with it added in.

More to come later…

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
Well, it's good to know that my future-planning strategy of building up to take on India was on the mark. I thought about taking the Americans on as the first oversea civ, but the Indians are smaller and appear to be less of a power.

That's exactly why I picked America as my target.

Several things worked together to keep me in shouting distance in the tech race.

1) I got a huge amount of tech in aborted gpt deals. The situation with England worked out especially well since I'd been stockpiling cash doing 40-turn research and could almost catch up getting England's techs without eating into that stockpile. That gave me the gold reserves to get the early medieval techs in time to get Sun Tsu's, Sistine, and Leo's, all three. Later, my medieval rip-offs gave me everything I could have gotten with the Great Library (although if I'd had the Great Library, I might have leveraged things better from a gold perspective).

2) I used a city build pattern targeted to very nearly max out my potential at size 12. Not only did that enhance my position through the medieval era, but it made Sanitation close enough to irrelevant for me that I felt comfortable skipping it. (I also skipped Communism, since diverting production away from military use for police stations would have been a bit problematic evem of I had the tech for them.)

3) I felt comfortable enough with my military position to invade America. It was closer to my core than India, and I figured removing one of the two biggest researchers from the equation would be a big help in my efforts to keep up. As things turned out, invading America worked out a lot better than I'd hoped. They'd just built ToE and were raking in gold like crazy. As I took America's cities, I captured huge amounts of gold to help fuel my research.

4) The AIs in my game did at least some fighting against each other. I wasn't watching closely at the time, but Egypt controlled one American city in northern Egypt when I met America and two others a few turns later. So America and Egypt may have been at war when I first met America. India had four cities on the Egyptian continent when we met, and those became Egyptian somewhere along the way. There was also apparently fighting between Babylon and India at at least one point in the game (and likely more than one given a respite I had from Indian and Babylonian efforts to attack me). I may find out more when I get around to finishing the game and get to see the replay, but I don't think wars in which no cities changed hands show up.

Even with all of that, the race for the U.N. was close enough to be a bit scary. Fortunately, I did hold two trump cards: the ability to capture an Egyptian city to disrupt their construction effort and a leader of my own to rush the wonder the moment I got the tech.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
I'm gonna get back to this over the weekend... Berserkers might help me get through it.

Theseus, are you picking the Vikings because you think they're a good civ for this map, or in spite of knowing they aren't? To get much use out of the Expansionist trait, you have to risk meeting the other civs earlier, and even then, scouts who stumble across military units on their second move would have their careers cut short. Militaristic is worth something, but the lack of Industrious is extremely costly with all the forests around. And while Berserks pack the same punch as cavalry, their lack of retreat makes them a lot less survivable even though they cost almost as much. Further, their best attack mode - coastal invasions - becomes a bit more problematic when AIs beat you to frigates and ironclads. The Vikings certainly aren't the worst civ I can possibly imagine for this map, but I think they're a long way from the best.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by nbarclay


Theseus, are you picking the Vikings because you think they're a good civ for this map, or in spite of knowing they aren't? To get much use out of the Expansionist trait, you have to risk meeting the other civs earlier, and even then, scouts who stumble across military units on their second move would have their careers cut short. Militaristic is worth something, but the lack of Industrious is extremely costly with all the forests around. And while Berserks pack the same punch as cavalry, their lack of retreat makes them a lot less survivable even though they cost almost as much. Further, their best attack mode - coastal invasions - becomes a bit more problematic when AIs beat you to frigates and ironclads. The Vikings certainly aren't the worst civ I can possibly imagine for this map, but I think they're a long way from the best.

I'd have to agree with that. I tried the Mongols with the same traits and my behind was handed to me (but by my own admission I played it poorly to start and the start is the key). Militaristic is good for all the fighting this AU takes (wish I had more elites ), but expansionist just doesn't give you enough of an edge. At least it didn't for me.

[vmxa1]

Rhothaerill do not waste any effort to make England productive, it is too small to sweat. Just let it provide resources and units. Corruption in those cities is irrelavant.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Rhothaerill do not waste any effort to make England productive, it is too small to sweat. Just let it provide resources and units. Corruption in those cities is irrelavant.

I just finally had some time to actually play again this week and decided at the last minute that making England productive wasn't worth losing a wonder and some of the production in the lower half of my main continent. Consider your advice heeded.

[nbarclay]

Sistine is one of few wonders that has global rather than merely continental effect, and I regard it as very much worthwhile in this game. With only two luxuries available in the home hemisphere, even on Chieftain, a size 12 city needs six happy faces from some combination of MPs, city improvements, and wonders to avoid rioting. A temple, cathedral, and Sistine can provide that. Without Sistine, two MPs, a coliseum, or some use of the luxury slider would also be needed until another luxury can be secured, and two MPs in every city would eat up quite a bit of free unit support (not to mention units that can be used as MPs in captured foreign cities). On higher levels, the advantage of Sistine is, of course, even greater.

[Theseus]

Nathan, I picked Scandinavia when I found I couldn't be Rome. I haven't really played it much before, and figured having such a bad-ass UU might come in handy.

[Rhothaerill]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Sistine is one of few wonders that has global rather than merely continental effect, and I regard it as very much worthwhile in this game. With only two luxuries available in the home hemisphere, even on Chieftain, a size 12 city needs six happy faces from some combination of MPs, city improvements, and wonders to avoid rioting. A temple, cathedral, and Sistine can provide that. Without Sistine, two MPs, a coliseum, or some use of the luxury slider would also be needed until another luxury can be secured, and two MPs in every city would eat up quite a bit of free unit support (not to mention units that can be used as MPs in captured foreign cities). On higher levels, the advantage of Sistine is, of course, even greater.

Really?

Wow, all this time I thought it was continental only. I'm going to have to go back and read up on this when I have the chance.

EDIT: I'm a dope. I never knew that Sistine wasn't continental. I don't often do many other-continent invasions unless it's for a city and resource that I want. So I never checked it.

[Rhothaerill]

After the fall of England I immediately set to work getting ready to take over India. I positioned my five galleys in Susa (with harbor) to get ready to upgrade to caravels once I hit Astronomy. All the rest of my units that I intended to send to the Indian front were sent to Susa as well. So, Astronomy is finished and off go my caravels across the ocean. I expected to lose one or two caravels. I didn't expect to lose four! My intention had been to land my units and take two cities at once and dig in for reinforcements. After the loss of the caravels I was only able to take Bengal on the tip of the Indian continent (where the spices are). For the next several turns I started beelining toward Magnetism as fast as possible, but also sending my units out to die in the ocean. All told I lost 12 full caravel loads and only three more caravel loads made it to the Indian continent. I finally decided that enough was enough as I was having phenomenally bad luck crossing. My cities continued to mass produce units in preparation, but I kept them in Susa along with several caravels waiting for upgrade. I was hoping that my remaining units in Bengal would be able to hold out.

But as the AI is wont to do, they sent hordes of units after me at once. And because of total war, I had units from the Indians, Babylonians (who have a ROP with the Indians), and Egyptians coming at me all at once. The Americans have landed twice on my continent and twice on the English continent but all their units were swiftly dealt with. Just as I finished Magnetism though, my forces finally fell. But I wasn't too worried. I now had six galleon loads of units to send back and retake my city. Just before Bengal fell to the Babylonians I had taken my Great Leader (from defense) out on my lone caravel still in the city to wait for the reinforcing galleons. I didn't want to trust him to a caravel crossing. In short order Bengal returned to my hands (and the walls and barracks I had built were still intact, I just had to rebuild the harbor to send the spices off and running) I returned my galleons to pick up another five full loads to return to Bengal while the AI continues to batter at me. I've lost many units, but the AI civs are losing three for every one of mine (roughly). And I've gained another Great Leader (see below where the first went) which I immediately used for an army. As soon as my next wave of units hits the Indian shores I intend to start an offensive of my own.

On the research front, I still appear to be holding my own. 3 of the AI civs are in Democracy (after 1,000 years of war ) and one in Republic. I'm roughly on par with them. I know they have Magnetism because I just saw an Egyptian galleon. They also have all the unnecessary techs because one of the four built the wonders for them. But I believe I'll be able to beat them to Newton's University. I had a prebuild going for Adam Smith, but my first leader built that so I could continue building for Newton. All I have left in the Middle Ages is a few turns for Theory of Gravity, Metallurgy, and Printing Press (I'm playing it on the AU mod ). I also intend to take a run through Military Tradition, because I really need Cavalry. It could swing the Indian nation to me because they don't have saltpeter (barring a trade) and I do.

Looking ahead from here I see much more war on the horizon. Now that I have a firm foothold on the Indian continent and have sliced up all their attacking forces I can begin to actually look at conquering more cities. My forces are still stronger than any individual AI civ, but my knight force was decimated in the crossing and subsequent defense of Bengal. I'm only now starting to get it back up to speed. With a little RNG luck heading back my way I might even flatten the Indians by 1500. Only 3 civs left after that. We'll see how it goes.

More to come later...

[Rhothaerill]

Sigh!

Everything has now gone wrong for me. I used up all my luck in the early game. After finally going on the offensive, pretty much my entire invasion force has been wiped out. Between the constant attacks from the Indians, Babylonians, and Egyptians, and the fact that I've lost almost every battle (even the elite knight attacking an unfortified warrior on grassland lost ), my forces in Bengal are all but nonexistent. And the Americans are starting to land on my continent before my frigates can take them out (I've even lost a few frigates to galleys ).

On the tech research front I'm suddenly way behind. All the other civs have now entered the Industrial Age while I'm still a good eight turns away. And because the Babs get a free tech, I'm probably at least five techs behind by now. And the gap is growing.

So it's sad to say, but I'm packing it in. My production capacity can't keep up with the amount of units I'm losing on a turn by turn basis. I could probably hold onto my two continents, but I'd be in for a long holding pattern until eventually losing in the end (to a UN resolution if nothing else). I think I prefer to go onto another game.

Kudos to Nathan for his almost-to-victory-game.

Thanks to all of you for reading my posts. I'm looking forward to the next course. Hopefully it isn't another total war.

[nbarclay]

1790 AD. Victory. Details later.

[Rhothaerill]

Good job Nathan. After knowing what I just went through it's all the more . The first three civs I took on one at a time, but after landing on the Indian continent the other four all ganged up on me at once.

[lmtoops]

So it goes Rhothaerill; you did much better than I (all 3 of my attempts). I truely enjoyed your narrative, along with the game notes.

I may give this game a 4th try. I enjoy pain, suffering, and ultimate death.

[Theseus]

I am having a b*tch of a time.... but I refuse to give up.

That said, I can only take this game in relatively small doses, and would like the pleasure of a relatively normal game concurrently. I tried MZO's Boot Camp #1, but it was too easy.

Time to start hatching plans for the next AU game. I'd like to try focusing on inter-continental invasions... how can we:

1) Make them tougher for the player. A lot tougher. MEAN tougher.

Actual risk of getting sunk on the way... no mountains or hills to land on... huge counter-attacking SODs... sh*tloads of defending Cannon / Arty (that actually get used)... radar towers three tiles in from shore...

Not quite sure how to accomplish this.

2) Harder to defend against.

How friggin' happy would it make me to see a true AI civ IC invasion, 30-40 units minimum.

Ideas?

[Dominae]

I have some ideas on how to make human-led IC invasions more difficult/fun, but getting the AI to actually attack the human's island effectively is certainly a project that is out of our hands (with the tools available in the editor, at least).

I'll ruminate on this as I get some exercise...a sketch of my idea to come later.


Dominae

[vulture]

Originally posted by Theseus
I
1) Make them tougher for the player. A lot tougher. MEAN tougher.

Actual risk of getting sunk on the way... no mountains or hills to land on... huge counter-attacking SODs... sh*tloads of defending Cannon / Arty (that actually get used)... radar towers three tiles in from shore...

Not quite sure how to accomplish this.

2) Harder to defend against.

How friggin' happy would it make me to see a true AI civ IC invasion, 30-40 units minimum.

Ideas?

We could always redo the isolation AU, but make it tougher. That one came out to easy because the starting island was rather nice and the AI were isolated into three small groups. A standard map game with the human on a smaller island and all 7 AI in contact with each other (maybe get fewer aggressive civs to keep war to a minimum early on) and conctact with the human impossible until magnetism or navigation (as before, make galleys and caravels arrive with magnetism, when they become obsolete). This would leave the human languishing behind in tech at the point of contact in all likelihood (could mod out the Great Library to make sure), and we'd end up facing the challenge of an IC invasion against a technologically superior enemy - it'd be very hard to get any offense at all going before ther AI had railroads and riflemen, and the usual AI swarm of ironclads roaming the seas. But it wouldn't be as difficult as this scenario since diplo moves are also available. Plus it will be a lot quicker to play the first 200 turns or so...

Might want to play with UN (and possibly spaceship) off.

Anyone interested in a game like that?

[Rhothaerill]

Just played almost that same exact situation on a random map on Emperor (see my starting location in the general forum). I was stuck on a tiny island and by the time I got off of it I was way behind in tech and had almost nothing to offer the others for their tech (they were all annoyed with me too even though they just met me).