China Cracks Down on TwentySomethings

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Seeker
Hey UR and Mindseye:

Any idea when the CCP is going to let their money float so we foreign language teachers can flood in to steal the women and drink the beer?

Right now the RMB they are offering is so low that you have to be crazy to choose china over taiwan. korea, or japan (32-34 k CAD p.a.)

Isn't mindseye teaching in Shanghai?

Anyway, I think they will probably do it in 5 years. Maybe in 2005, depending on how things go.

[DinoDoc]

Lee Wen Ho was acquited. These people were sentenced to 10 years in jail. I'm curious if you can see any difference in the two examples.

[mindseye]

It depends. Unless you're talking about the really poor areas, it shouldn't be bad at all. For example, Chungching looks rather lively, and it has 30m pop.

A lot of foreigners (and even some Chinese) find Guangzhou, for instance, to be a filthy, polluted depressing city. I haven't been there, but I've heard this so many times that I've scratched it off my list of places to see. Funny you mention Chongching, I've heard some similar complaints about it. According to some, Chengdu is also so badly polluted as to obliterate its other charms.

Then there are also a lot of mid-sized cities that are ugly and boring, e.g. Wuhan. Would you like to spend a few months working in Wuhan?

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Seeker
Hey UR and Mindseye:

Any idea when the CCP is going to let their money float so we foreign language teachers can flood in to steal the women and drink the beer?

Right now the RMB they are offering is so low that you have to be crazy to choose china over taiwan. korea, or japan (32-34 k CAD p.a.)

Huh? Right now China is a veritable goldmine for teaching! The pay is really high, and the demand is so great that even East Europeans who speak crappy English can easily find work. (Yes, UR, I am teaching!)

I think you must be making the common mistake of converting rmb into your local currency and comparing on that basis. You have to compare with what you can buy on the local market. In Shanghai, a good freelance teacher working 15 - 20 hours per week can afford to own a decent home! HOWEVER: if you are only planning on staying a short time, and hoping to return home with a big stash of savings, China might not be the best choice, for the reason you noted.

Don't worry about the beer here, it's hilariously cheap. At the corner store you can buy a liter of QingDao or other Chinese beer for under 3 rmb (compare: freelance teaching often pays 150 rmb per hour).

[mindseye]

IIRC, no mainstream newspaper was anywhere being critical of this, not even after the fact. Yes, there were some contrary voices, but they were few and far between, and most went along with the official story.

Hmm, I seem to recall a lot of controversy over the case, during and after. Not to mention, as DinoDoc pointed out, Wen Ho Lee eventually walked away a free man. Not so for the lads who ran afoul of the Chinese authorities - or the many others suffering similar fates.

Anyway, as for "no mainstream newspaper", here's a few examples:

ABC news:

“I don’t think that you can justify, in retrospect, keeping a person in jail without bail when you’re prepared to make that kind of agreement [re: subsequent plea bargain and reduction of charges]. It just can’t be justified,” Clinton said, adding that he’s been troubled by the case for some time.
(...)
U.S. District Judge James Parker in Albuquerque, N.M., scolded the “top decision-makers” in the departments of Justice and Energy as he sentenced Lee to 278 days — one day less than time served. “I sincerely apologize to you, Dr. Lee, for the unfair manner in which you were held in custody by the executive branch,” Parker told him. “The executive branch has enormous power, the abuse of which can be devastating to citizens. … They have embarrassed our entire nation and each of us who is a citizen of it.”

USA Today:

The Justice Department released on Wednesday a massive review of the FBI's bungled espionage investigation of former nuclear scientist Wen Ho Lee.

CNN:

But the fact that the agreement comes after a number of courtroom setbacks for the government -- the most disturbing of which was the recent admission by an FBI agent that he'd provided false testimony in Lee's bail hearing -- and shortly before the deadline by which the feds would have been compelled to hand Judge James A. Parker documents that would allow him to pursue the claim that Lee was singled out because of his ethnicity leaves the government facing a banquet of crow.

Indeed, Americans may well find some cause for disquiet at the spectacle of the nation's leading law enforcement agency, in the eye of a political firestorm over China's apparent access to blueprints of some U.S. nuclear warhead designs, appearing to rush a man into court for allegedly helping a foreign power steal the "crown jewels" of the nation's nuclear secrets, only to recant nine months later and concede that the accused was guilty only of something even a former CIA director has admitted doing -- mishandling classified information.

New York Times

Justice Dept report criticizes FBI's investigation of Wen Ho Lee, nuclear weapons scientist suspected of spying for China; calls probe 'deeply and fundamentally flawed'

LA Times

The report, most of which was leaked earlier, criticizes the FBI for never considering the [Wen Ho Lee] investigation a priority; failing to allot it proper resources or properly supervise agents on the case; and moving too slowly.

It condemns a communication breakdown between the FBI and the Energy Department and chastises investigators for not immediately searching Lee's computer files when suspicions

Washington Post (sorry, can't link to full article):

Back Channels: The Intelligence Community
Justice Dept. Slammed on Lee Prosecution

The Justice Department's prosecution of former Los Alamos physicist Wen Ho Lee was beset by poor investigative techniques, inflated charges and weak leadership, making it a "case study in how an espionage case should not proceed," according to the latest critique.

If a hostile intelligence service had launched a covert operation against the United States, it could not have been more successful in discrediting the criminal justice system.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Lee Wen Ho was acquited. These people were sentenced to 10 years in jail. I'm curious if you can see any difference in the two examples.

First of all, Lee wasn't acquited. FBI dropped 58 of the 59 charges, and Lee was found guilty on the last one. However, since he had been held in jail for more than the sentenced prison term, Lee was immediately released.

Secondly, I have no idea if those 4 people failed to do what is required deliberately. If so, that's called civil disobediance, and people doing that are expecting (or should be expecting) to be punished according to the law. If you are protesting against the law against marijuana by carrying the stuff around publicly, you'd expect the authority to do something against you.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
At the corner store you can buy a liter of QingDao or other Chinese beer for under 3 rmb (compare: freelance teaching often pays 150 rmb per hour).

150!! Great scott, most tutors and freelance teachers don't get pay that much here.

And buying a home? Hahaha, nice dream. The truth is real estate is out of reach for most people here.

As for the Lee Wen Ho case, what I was saying was not a lot of mainstream media went against DoJ/FBI during the trial. After Judge Parker slammed the FBI, it's a different story.

P.S. You are right, Wuhan is boring.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

150!! Great scott, most tutors and freelance teachers don't get pay that much here.

And buying a home? Hahaha, nice dream. The truth is real estate is out of reach for most people here.

As for the Lee Wen Ho case, what I was saying was not a lot of mainstream media went against DoJ/FBI during the trial. After Judge Parker slammed the FBI, it's a different story.

P.S. You are right, Wuhan is boring.

To be fair to the media, they weren't exactly privy to any information other than the FBI's leaks, and Lee was rather egregiously guilty of the "mishandling" of classified information. It seems likely that he was a spy, or planning on becoming one given the way that he treated classified information. I have held a high security clearance in the past, and I know that he was briefed about not only the rules, but how he could get the death penalty for breaking them.

[mindseye]

150!! Great scott, most tutors and freelance teachers don't get pay that much here.

That's just the average rate for typical oral English courses.

For qualified, experienced teachers, specialized classes (e.g. IELTS preparation) or on-site classes for private companies can win rates of 200 and even 250 rmb/hr.

My disposable income working as a part-time English teacher in Shanghai is greater than when I worked as a full-time corporate IT project manager in California. Not to mention, the work is far more enjoyable and rewarding.

[mindseye]

Lee was rather egregiously guilty of the "mishandling" of classified information.

A point often overlooked in this case.

Some of his actions were highly suspicious, and hard to explain under any other circumstances but deliberate espionage. IMHO he was lucky the FBI performed so poorly.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye

Quote:

150!! Great scott, most tutors and freelance teachers don't get pay that much here.

That's just the average rate for typical oral English courses.

For qualified, experienced teachers, specialized classes (e.g. IELTS preparation) or on-site classes for private companies can win rates of 200 and even 250 rmb/hr.

Yeesh!!

I guess you don't have to be a native speaker either, considering your privous comment about Eastern Europeans?

Why would anybody want to slave away here for long hours with little pay?

/me finally goes postal

[Seeker]

I'm getting contradictory signals here.

Mindseye says 250 RMB/ hour, which is damn good (41 CAD)

But many of the jobs posted on eslcafe.com offer only 5000-8000 RMB a month, which is about 1000 CAD a month. Yeah, the local prices are cheap but korea, taiwan, and japan offer 2200-2500, even 2800 CAD a month.

Are you talking about private tutoring Mindseye? Is it legal in China?

Here in Korea it's illegal, I'd hate to see what they do to someone breaking a real law if they throw internet chatters in jail.

[mindseye]

Seeker,

The discrepancy is due to the difference between salaried full-time contract jobs and freelancing.

Salaried jobs are usually connected with some sort of actual school (i.e. not a business). They usually provide room, board, basic medical care, plus a nominal salary (the range you quoted is accurate), and handle all red tape such as visa issues.

Freelancers live on their own, and line up jobs of various sorts including work at schools, training centers (private businesses), corporate work, and private tutoring. The pay range is usually 130-170 rmb/hr depending on experience & qualifications, more for specialized teaching as I mentioned above.

Contract jobs are easier for foreigners who just want to come over for a few months or a year, mainly for the experience of spending time in China (not for making money). It's easier, but you have to work a lot of hours, and you usually live in a campus somewhere outside of a city. The accomodations and food are all over the map, from quite comfortable to miserable.

Freelancers have to line up their own gigs, which takes a little time and discipline. The ratio of travel time to work hours is often high (can easily be 1:1). On the other hand, you have much more spare time and make more money. Most freelancers spend the rest of their time on things like starting their own businesses, writing, editing, acting, dubbing, etc - this kind of work is all pretty easy to find for the enterprising foreigner with a bit of gumption. Freelancers also need to exit and re-enter the country once per year, which usually consists of a quick overnight dash to Hong Kong (technically outside the country for visa purposes).

Many freelancers are folks who originally came over on contract (or as students or tourists), fell in love with China, and switched over. Most freelancers are on business-type visas, which, like private tutoring, may or may not be legal - it depends on the city and official you talk to. However, in general officials will not bother anyone who appears to be a legitimate and respectful teacher. They realize that we are providing a very valuable service necessary for China's continued development. In fact, I would say that problems with officials are virtually unheard of, unless you do something stupid like overstay your visa or get arrested for something.

Be careful about multiplying the rates I quote by 40 hours/week. It's almost impossible for a freelancer to line up forty hours of classes or tutoring without time conflicts. More importantly, few have the stamina to teach more than 30 or so hours per week (teaching is a high-energy job, at least if you are a good teacher). Most freelancers I know would not want to work that much anyway. Why bother if you can make a comfortable living working part-time? Besides, with the multitude of other opportunities, not to mention the fun of exploring life in China, who wants to work every day and night? Freelancers more typically work 15 to 25 hours per week.

When comparing salaries with Korea and Japan, be careful about the cost of living. What does a typical dinner in a Japanese neighborhood restaurant cost? US$75? Here, it's about US$3. I live in a spacious, beautiful new high-rise apartment, with two bedrooms, large bay windows, and a balconey with a stunning view. This costs about US$400/mo. You can easily find a decent place closer to US$250/mo (these are Shanghai rates, rent is cheaper in most other Chinese cities except Beijing or Hong Kong).

Let me know if I can provide any other details.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
I live in a spacious, beautiful new high-rise apartment, with two bedrooms, large bay windows, and a balconey with a stunning view. This costs about US$400/mo. You can easily find a decent place closer to US$250/mo (these are Shanghai rates, rent is cheaper in most other Chinese cities except Beijing or Hong Kong).

Most definitely Hong Kong. Starting from 5x the price, then go up.

[Mao]

mindseye, I'm curious, are you fluent in Mandarin as well?

[mindseye]

mindseye, I'm curious, are you fluent in Mandarin as well?

I wish! I'd say that now I am lurking somewhere around "conversational", whatever that is. My reading/writing vocabulary lags far behind my spoken, but I keep chipping away at it. I think "fluency" is at least two years away for me yet, but at least I can handle most everyday situations now, including those two most important fuctions, swearing and flirting.

[Lord Merciless]

Most stuffs are cheap in China:
For only $50, you can have a full course dinner for 8 in a relatively up-scale restaurant.

A copy of Heroes of Might & Magic IV, English version and non-pirated, costs $6.

The Chinese Civ3 costs $4.

The Cambridge History of China, sold in the US for $150 per volume, costs only $9 in China.

A 30 kilometer taxi drive costs only $4.


But the official version of MS Office costs $1100! The price is completely out of reach of most consumers. No wonder Chinese are buying Linux or committing software piracy en masse!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
But the official version of MS Office costs $1100!

In US dollars?!

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


In US dollars?!

Or 9000 yuan, which translates into 1100 US dollars.

[Urban Ranger]

They are completely and utterly out of their collective skull. What kind of morons would do such a thing?

[Seeker]

"More importantly, few have the stamina to teach more than 30 or so hours per week (teaching is a high-energy job, at least if you are a good teacher)."

Tell that to my boss (wang ja neem).

I just got finished 8 40 minute classes, and I work 6 days a week. This is 11th month of my 12 month contract.

$1100: Apparently, they've given up on the idea of Asians buying software legally...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Seeker
$1100: Apparently, they've given up on the idea of Asians buying software legally...

I bet that if they sell MS Office at USD$1100 in the US, not that many people will buy it legally, either.

[mindseye]

I just got finished 8 40 minute classes, and I work 6 days a week.

You have my sympathy.

A lot of contract jobs are like this. Don't tell me, let me guess - they don't care what you teach, never ask for lesson plans, never monitor your work, etc. All they care about is having that white face in front of the classrom for x hours per week, right?

And let me guess about the class size: fifty students during each forty minute class maybe?

I know that score. I found two private language training centers that actually do care about the quality of the teaching, I do most of my work for them. I often teach courses that have five hour sessions with class sizes of about 18. In that kind of situation, you can actually do some real training.

GOOD LUCK, SEEKER!