Isn't it about time they release the civ2 source code?

DarthVeda · May 30, 2003, 21:49

It's been a looooong time since civ first came out. A lot of games from that time period have released their source out under the GPL. For instance: Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, and even Quake 2. I think it's about time Atari/Microprose do the same for Civ2/MGE/ToT ... if it's even on a hard drive anywhere anymore. Only we hardcore fans play it any more and I seriously doubt it's a major seller anymore for Atari.

What do you guys think?

Cruddy · May 31, 2003, 02:23

Whether or not source code is released is entirely at the discretion of the copyright holder - I'm not sure who that is, but I can see one snag.

There was a Playstation version of Civ. Persuading Sony to release would be a major, major headache. Not impossible - but they hate setting precedents (a lot of other people ask for source for other games then, "because you released Civ".

Don't hold your breath.

Ming · May 31, 2003, 04:21

Yeah... don't hold your breath is probably true.

But it would be nice at this stage

DrSpike · May 31, 2003, 07:35

What could be done with the source code that can't be done now?

Shaka Naldur · May 31, 2003, 14:46

we could do something, massive emails or something like that

Panag · May 31, 2003, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
What could be done with the source code that can't be done now?

hi ,

indeed , ...... what

look at the countless excellent scen's and tools , maps , etc , .... poly has in its download chapter

we should ask some-one like capt nemo what he would do with it , ......

have a nice day

Mercator · May 31, 2003, 14:57

Everything!

"bugs" can be fixed (e.g. the goto bug, or even rewrite the AI), hard-coded limits can be changed (like that of the number of units, cities, civilizations, or map size). You name it... Of course, while some of that could be easy, most things would be harder to change.

I don't think it will ever be released though. You say more games have had their source code released, but has Microprose ever done that?

Panag · May 31, 2003, 15:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
Everything!

"bugs" can be fixed (e.g. the goto bug, or even rewrite the AI), hard-coded limits can be changed (like that of the number of units, cities, civilizations, or map size). You name it... Of course, while some of that could be easy, most things would be harder to change.

I don't think it will ever be released though. You say more games have had their source code released, but has Microprose ever done that?

hi ,

wait a min , ( civ2 is while ago ) but what about the "tweak" then , ..... and arent there a couple other tools around also , ....

who has problems with limits , they never where a problem in any of the scen's , ....

have a nice day

Mercator · May 31, 2003, 15:49

Sure, civ2 is pretty decent as it is... And the limits weren't really problems with any scenarios, but that's mostly because the scenario creators have been so inventive in trying to bend the rules and use and abuse all of civ2's features and bugs.

And wouldn't all Deity players like a civ2 with a more challenging AI, better diplomacy, non-stupid automated settlers, a working goto function.

And wouldn't scenarios makers and players like a vastly extended events language, scenarios-specific AI, more possible civs, improved editors, 24-bit graphics, larger tiles...

Of course, doing all this would take a tremendous amount of work. But out of the civ2 source code we could make Civ3 as it should have been. And the FreeCiv'ers would sure be happy too, since they could make it entirely civ2 compatible much easier.

DrSpike · May 31, 2003, 16:12

Ok you convinced me.

H Tower · June 2, 2003, 02:44

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

wait a min , ( civ2 is while ago ) but what about the "tweak" then , ..... and arent there a couple other tools around also , ....

yeah, we can do more still

Quote:

who has problems with limits , they never where a problem in any of the scen's , ....

Red Front for units and Age of War for cities.

lord of the mark · June 3, 2003, 15:06

id wager there are more scenarios that are unrealistic due to the number of civs limit, then there are scenarios that arent. Think of all the scens that have a "neutrals" or "others" or "independent cities" civ, which make no sense because of those groupings.

JJJ · June 3, 2003, 16:52

If this happened I might just die. We'd have to set up some system for plugins though, we wouldn't want it to be that you could only have one tweak at a time. Plugins... yes, that could work somehow.

If only they would ever actually release it. The point about Sony is a good one.

SlowThinker · June 3, 2003, 19:20

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike
What could be done with the source code that can't be done now?

There is many design flaws, especially the black hat bug is a big problem.

Also I would like a replay (for PBEM), bookmarks associated with squares, cities, units, maybe undo for some situations.

Scouse Gits · June 4, 2003, 03:19

It would be nice - but it ain't going to happen...

SG[1]

Gatekeeper · June 4, 2003, 04:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
... But out of the civ2 source code we could make Civ3 as it should have been. ...

Which, IMO, is precisely why TPTB will *not* release the source code for Civ II. Seriously. If we can simply remake Civ II into what we think Civ III (or any of its successors or XPs) should have been, what's the point of buying Civ III, et al.?

But I wish they would release the Civ II source code. Alas, it will never happen.

Gatekeeper

Mercator · June 4, 2003, 15:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
If we can simply remake Civ II into what we think Civ III (or any of its successors or XPs) should have been, what's the point of buying Civ III, et al.?

Even if it were released now, the first thing that will happen is everyone jumps on it and "releases" his own civ2 "hack"... With only a variable or two changed, because the vast majority will be people who wouldn't know a C++ program if it bit them in the ass.

When the initial rush is over, people will start wondering what they could do with it. Several teams will be set up to decide what needs to be changed (for only a thoroughly fixed civ2) and then programming starts. By the time that is done and we really start thinking about going beyond civ2, civ4 will be announced.

Even with existing code it takes a long time to make a good program... Just like it will take some time yet before the "ultimate" FreeCiv will finally be done.

Quote:

Alas, it will never happen.

Yep... Oh well, we can all dream about it instead.

Straybow · June 4, 2003, 23:20

/me dreams

Gatekeeper · June 5, 2003, 04:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator
Even if it were released now, the first thing that will happen is everyone jumps on it and "releases" his own civ2 "hack"... With only a variable or two changed, because the vast majority will be people who wouldn't know a C++ program if it bit them in the ass.

Ouch! What the hell just bit me in the ass?!

Quote:

When the initial rush is over, people will start wondering what they could do with it. Several teams will be set up to decide what needs to be changed (for only a thoroughly fixed civ2) and then programming starts. By the time that is done and we really start thinking about going beyond civ2, civ4 will be announced.

Well, knowing TPTB, it would actually be Civ 3.5, and only reach Civ IV status with three or four patches, plus an XP or two. OK, so maybe I'm being a bit *too* harsh ...

Quote:

Even with existing code it takes a long time to make a good program... Just like it will take some time yet before the "ultimate" FreeCiv will finally be done.

Hmm ... I wonder how much of a difference in coding there is between the PC and Macintosh versions of Civ II. Would one be easier to recode and/or tweak than the other? I've heard conflicting reports on this.

Quote:

Yep... Oh well, we can all dream about it instead.

I'm with ya on that! Dreaming the night away ...

Gatekeeper

ottok · June 12, 2003, 03:08

CivilizationI,Civilization2,Civilization3

Same sourcelangugue??

Mercator · June 12, 2003, 07:45

I think so... All in C++ I think.

CapTVK · June 13, 2003, 16:12

I agree, even if Civ2 is dated by now the Freeciv project would still gain something from this. Insight into the actual game algorithms/mechanisms always is a good thing. If the original graphics/sound could also be placed in the public domain it would be even better. We wouldn't need to rely on the civ2gfx-utility any more for legal reasons. From then on the graphics could be included in the official binaries.

However, I find this debate about what you could with the civ source code, "if we had it", rather ironic. Why? Simple: We already have a Civ source code at hand!.

And improving the original Civ2? Freeciv has already moved beyond the original Civ1/Civ2 goals. Just take a look at some of Mercator's suggestions: more challenging AI (you need to go full out as a pro to beat the AI), better diplomacy (coming in 1.15), non-stupid automated settlers (already in), a working goto (already in, and a very good goto at that I might add).

Add to that a lotter of other features like, micro management support, playable nearly every local language (...Spanish, German, Japanese, Portugese, Polish, Russian, French...Dutch. Yes, even Dutch! "Give 'em hell!" - "Geef ze van katoen!" ) SMAC-style borders (with luck in 1.16 or even 1.15)....the list goes on and the more people play it, the better it becomes.

Wake up to smell the coffee people. We've already got the Civ source code!

Mercator · June 13, 2003, 17:20

Quote:

Originally posted by CapTVK
However, I find this debate about what you could with the civ source code, "if we had it", rather ironic. Why? Simple: We already have a Civ source code at hand!.

With the emphasis on a. No matter how admirable the FreeCiv project is, it's NOT civ2 (e.g. the map, scenario support, and compatibility in whichever other way).

Quote:

And improving the original Civ2? Freeciv has already moved beyond the original Civ1/Civ2 goals

True again, but FC will always be a distinctly different game... Well, perhaps unless we get the Civ2 source. Since then FC can actually become an extension of civ2.

Quote:

Yes, even Dutch! "Give 'em hell!" - "Geef ze van katoen!"

I hate games in Dutch, so that's not gonna cut it for me.

Quote:

Wake up to smell the coffee people. We've already got the Civ source code!

But not many civ2 people are interested, are they?

CapTVK · June 13, 2003, 19:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercator

With the emphasis on a. No matter how admirable the FreeCiv project is, it's NOT civ2 (e.g. the map, scenario support, and compatibility in whichever other way).

The same can be said for any other Civ game out there. Why isn't ToT compatible with standard Civ2 scenarios? No, Freeciv is NOT Civ2. Ctp isn't Civ2, Ctp2 isn't Civ2, Cevo isn't Civ2, Civ 2 is Civ2. Freeciv is a Civ game that you can happen to play with the Civ2 ruleset.

The reason that Civ2 is still here hasn't so much to do with the actual program but with the game concepts employed in Civ 1&2. Apart from a few incremental changes that concept remained the same from Civ1 to Civ2. A few tweaks to the combat system and trade, a few techs and units here. Presto, Civ 2 was born! For its time Civ2 was perfect, today Civ2 the program is no longer perfect. Years later the concept still stands. Civ3 came, but the concept was changed to the dismay of some. Doesn't matter, as we still have Civ2 to enjoy.

But Civ2 has aged, really aged. It can't evolve. Freeciv does, and it's refreshing to see incremental changes. Is it fully Civ2 compatible? Heck no, but I know there's always something new coming around the corner. If it's a feature i don't like I can turn it off, simple isn't it? If a feature hasn't been implemented (yet) I'll probably have to wait until someone does. Or try and do something about it myself or help out in another way.

Even the point about the map topology (iso-maps) is a problem that's being settled right now by one of the developers (Raimar Falke). I think you're referring to this problem, is it not?

http://www.freeciv.org/~rfalke/grid_pics2/iso_maps.html

Quote:

And improving the original Civ2? Freeciv has already moved beyond the original Civ1/Civ2 goals

True again, but FC will always be a distinctly different game... Well, perhaps unless we get the Civ2 source. Since then FC can actually become an extension of civ2.

Once again that can be said for any Civ game. How many Civ games offer Civ2 compatibility? Not even ToT can play Civ2 scenarios (unless you painstakingly convert them).

Quote:

Yes, even Dutch! "Give 'em hell!" - "Geef ze van katoen!"

I hate games in Dutch, so that's not gonna cut it for me.

Go tell that to the Russians, Germans, French, Spanish, Portuges and various other nationalities. The fact that people can play a game in their own language is strong point for people to try it out. It might explain why Freeciv is more popular in the non-english community.

Quote:

But not many civ2 people are interested, are they?

Actually there are not that many Civ2 fans left. I hate to say it but the people who visit this forum (plus some at Civfanatics) don't represent the Civ2 public. They are the entire public! I don't think many more people will get interested in Civ2, will they?

H Tower · June 13, 2003, 19:59

Quote:

Originally posted by CapTVK
Actually there are not that many Civ2 fans left. I hate to say it but the people who visit this forum (plus some at Civfanatics) don't represent the Civ2 public. They are the entire public! I don't think many more people will get interested in Civ2, will they?

all the more reason to release the code then, don't you think?

DrSpike · June 13, 2003, 20:15

Quote:

Originally posted by CapTVK

But Civ2 has aged, really aged. It can't evolve.

And this............I don't really see why your valid points about Freeciv lead to any civ2 source code release being redundant.

Henrik · June 14, 2003, 02:44

What they did in Freeciv to expand the AI was to make it ICS and act more agressively. So rather than solving the problem of ICS and the allready too agressive AI to be more realistic they did the oposite.
Also in Freeciv there is no AI diplomacy, leaving you at constant war and with a very boring game that is just about building cities faster than the computer controlled players.
Believe it or not, while MP is popular and that is said to have diplomacy, SP is far more so and allways will be even though MP is more fun as people won't be online to play with you all the time.

IMHO freeciv looks nice but plays awefull, things people where asking to get fixed from civ2 to civ 3 (not that it happened but atleast people where asking for it

) has been made features in freeciv. ICS has gone from something that people wants to make harder to something that is expected to of everyone and is deemed quite normal.

It also has nothing on civ 2 scenario editing...

Your claims that there are no civ 2ers around seems a bit strange as we actually get new people every now and then, sure not as often as a new game but people do arrive at the forums from time to time.
Also more scenarios are under development now than has been in a long while. How many freeciv scenarios are under development currently?

Believe it or not, civ2 is alive and well, and your attempts to claim the contrary is probably not helping to bring us over to Freeciv

That said I love the idea of the freeciv project, I just think they took the wrong path when building the game. I realize ofcourse this has a lot to do with my personal tastes, I merely meant to point out that not everyone might feel that freeciv is an evolved version of civ2...

Mercator · June 14, 2003, 10:43

The scenario editing possibilitie are where civ2 blows just about all of its competition out of the water.

So you may be correct that converting scenarios to ToT is a painstaking process. converting civ2 scenarios to FreeCiv is impossible. Even if some sort of scenario support will eventually be introduced, conversion will still be nearly impossible, because the completely different AI would not be able to deal with all the civ2 tweaks.

So you're correct that civ2 can't evolve, but the scenarios still provide plenty of variation, and new things are still being discovered and used...
And with the civ2 source, it obviously could evolve. Especially if that meant civ2 would be integrated into freeciv, so we'd have the best of both worlds.

Quote:

Even the point about the map topology (iso-maps) is a problem that's being settled right now by one of the developers (Raimar Falke).

I could add freeciv map support for MapEdit once that's done.

CapTVK · June 14, 2003, 10:57

Quote:

Originally posted by DrSpike

And this............I don't really see why your valid points about Freeciv lead to any civ2 source code release being redundant.

Didn't I say in the first point that I agree that the release of the Civ source code would be a good thing. I pointed out some of the benefits in the first paragraph!

DrSpike · June 14, 2003, 11:06

Quote:

Originally posted by CapTVK

However, I find this debate about what you could with the civ source code, "if we had it", rather ironic. Why? Simple: We already have a Civ source code at hand!.

Ok this was the bit that confused me.............but now (in the day, completely sober) I see you said 'a' civ source code not 'the' civ source code.