Success, the Indians and You

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 2, 2003, 09:55

How the hell do I make it as the Indians?

In playing out each and every civilization to some sort of victory on a huge world with continents/16 civs, I thought for sure that the Indians would be a cakewalk. They're religious, making cultural expansion a snap. And they're commercial, making early tech research and - eventually - giant empire maintenance a breeze.

Well, boy was I wrong. After a fitful weekend of being outexpanded or outresearched by all my neighbors, or losing out the tech race overseas, I must turn to Apolyton for some advice.

My predicament so far is this: if I start with plentiful neighbors, the Mongols and/or other expansionists will quickly outstrip my research efforts. The Koreans will be hestitant to trade with me, and all my neighbors - no one in particular - will crowd the map so much that REXing loses almost all meaning.

Or, assuming I start on an "Asian-only" continent, I can outexpand the passive Chinese, Japanese, Mongols and Koreans, perhaps even keeping them from a single source of iron - only to find that overseas, my competitors have been trading so agressively that I and my neighbors are now well behind in terms of tech.

So, what do I do? Typical REXing isn't working out... sometimes even researching Mysticism-Polytheism is yielding negligible results in trades... should I consider some form of archer rush? Swordsmen war perhaps? India isn't necessarily geared towards this tactic, but I see little other way.

Please help!

CerberusIV · June 2, 2003, 10:32

I have never played very far into a game as the Indians for the reasons you describe, although I do quite like the Spanish who have the same civ traits.

The way I would do it is to start building a combined arms force towards the end of the REX phase and pick on a neighbour. If you can gain four or five cities that will boost your empire enough to progressively overrun a big enough area of land to go for whichever victory type you choose.

The difficulty with the Indians is that they don't have a killer UU (unless you delete iron from the available resources using the editor

) so you will need swordsmen, horsies and catapults together.

Arrian · June 2, 2003, 11:15

I haven't played the Indians in a long time. They will shine in the mid-to-late game. In other words, they're slow starters. Commerical, though it does provide some extra cash, is really about lower corruption, which isn't an issue if your early expansion isn't good and/or you don't conquer anybody. To get the best use out of that trait, you need to big empire.

As for research, the polytheism route usually works pretty well (though I'd research a few other important techs at maximum first - like BW - so they're out of the way when you go to trade). The other option is Writing (embassies + good trading opportunities) and then mathematics. Being commercial, you have a head start on those techs. You also should have a decent shot at the GL.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 2, 2003, 11:26

I think I will give the writing route a shot... With many neighbors, I found myself in such heavy wonder competition, and with techs flying about like underwear in a college freshman's slumber party, I often lost the Great Library or HG (the only two I care about) by 1 or 2 turns to some other suckers... perhaps if I just get started earlier...

...and hints on REXing?

And yes, I do want many neighbors... I want to conquer them all later! And I don't want to be on the continent that "falls behind"...

Arrian · June 2, 2003, 12:06

Well, an early granary can be a big help.

So can a quick swordsman war (IMO, the quickest force to put together. Barracks = 40 shields. Warrior = 10 shields. Warrior -> Swordsman = 40 gold + iron) with a neighbor. It depends on the situation.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 2, 2003, 12:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Well, an early granary can be a big help.

I've had mixed success with this approach (as the Indians).

Quote:

So can a quick swordsman war (IMO, the quickest force to put together. Barracks = 40 shields. Warrior = 10 shields. Warrior -> Swordsman = 40 gold + iron) with a neighbor. It depends on the situation.

I guess you're right. How many "core" cities would you go with before starting this war? Who would you pick on first? Any civs to avoid (other than militaritists, obviously)

Arrian · June 2, 2003, 12:28

How many cities? Not a hard number. It's more like "ok, I'm running out of room for peaceful REX... let's get a barracks or two up and start building warriors."

Obviously, this means you need IW, and Iron. This causes problems for the GL route. But since you are going to do most of your REXing before getting the barracks up & starting on vet warriors, you should have time to trade for or even research IW. Obviously, it's best to have it before you actually build vet warriors, since they're a waste w/o Iron.

Civs to avoid? Greece, Carthage, Rome w/iron. Anybody with a 3 defender. Don't fear militarists.

Depending on how many swordsmen you muster up, and how the RNG treates you, you can do quite a bit of damage with them against standard units.

I left Persia off the "avoid" list. I did this because though they're scary, that's precisely the reason why you shouldn't avoid them. Persia w/iron close to you? KILL THEM, for goodness sake, and do it ASAP. Otherwise those Immortals will probably come knockin'. Plus, even if they don't, Persia has a tendancy of "building up" well.

-Arrian

monkspider · June 2, 2003, 23:29

Listen well to Arrian. In my experience, the Indians do indeed start of slow, but boom around the time you start cranking out war elephants. Have patience with them, they are one of my favorite civs.

Tassadar500 · June 3, 2003, 00:18

Haha. I remember when I was playing the indians once. Pretty much behind in the tech race so I was dragging behind in the military. All of a sudden the super power Germany sent their Panzer deep into my territory. I asked them to leave which they didnt so thus I had to declare war. I was sure I would lose and need to make peace but I quickly thought to make trade embargo's with nations that could make tanks. So Germany couldnt make the Panzers because they relied on other civs to make the Panzers. I had just recovered from a war against the Zulus so I had a few Great Leaders. And the German army was dependant on their Panzers. So I won the war

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 3, 2003, 17:52

This is not really an India-specific question, but as it deals with one strategy the India player could use, I'll ask it: say I want to start a swordsmen war against one of my neighbors. When do I build the barracks? How many barracks do I build? How many veteran warriors do I build before the upgrade? How many swordsmen do I use to attack each city?

As a militaristic civ, at this point in the game, and on Regent level, I'd feel comfortable attacking with 4, give or take a few depending on circumstances, and augmenting my forces later.

What force would y'all use?

Nakar Gabab · June 3, 2003, 18:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
This is not really an India-specific question, but as it deals with one strategy the India player could use, I'll ask it: say I want to start a swordsmen war against one of my neighbors. When do I build the barracks? How many barracks do I build? How many veteran warriors do I build before the upgrade? How many swordsmen do I use to attack each city?

1) When you can, perhaps building an early one in a city that will become a 'military camp.'

2) As many as you need. One in every city that's going to be making units and one in any border towns where you plan to station the forces pre-upgrade, then attack.

3) As many as you can afford to upgrade. Any more is essentially a waste.

4) Obviously it depends, but 4-5 per city against non-Greek/Carthaginian civs is a near-certain victory.

Tassadar500 · June 3, 2003, 18:10

Being a war monger that really doesnt use much thought in rushes I would say build a barracks before the war. And build them in your prime production cities. Well the number to attack each city depends so I cant answer you on this one.

Arrian · June 4, 2003, 10:24

On a standard map (Monarch) I tend to use 10-12 swordsmen plus a couple of spears. I will most likely concentrate them in 1 or 2 big stacks. Overwhelming force.

Take city, quell resistance, poprush spearman, move on.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 4, 2003, 10:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
On a standard map (Monarch) I tend to use 10-12 swordsmen plus a couple of spears. I will most likely concentrate them in 1 or 2 big stacks. Overwhelming force.

So, you'd be building a barracks or two at some point, and then saving about how much gold?

Arrian · June 4, 2003, 10:39

Probably 2 barracks, then each city pumps out 5-6 vet warriors.

The money usually isn't an issue, because by this point I've probably researched 2 techs at 40 turn pace (IW, Polytheism) and/or nailed some barb encampments.

But 10 warrior -> sword upgrades will cost you 400 gold.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 4, 2003, 10:40

Hmmm, yes, that's not so bad, especially if you've got MapMaking by that point... not necessary either, I suppose.

Theseus · June 4, 2003, 20:53

Don;t forget that commercial helps with NOC corruption as well... I'd go for a 3-tile spaced empire, or even better yet I'd ralph.

I'd go with Writing in a big way... opens up the extortion floodgates.

Barracks are a must, unless you have a convenient and protected barb farming zone.

Lastly, really polish up your early game... as always, cracker's thread on CFC is a must. If you can get to feudalism and beyond with a good position, India (and Carthage and France) really shines.

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 5, 2003, 10:03

Yes, I've been a big fan of commercial empires in the past... but with India, I've had difficulty getting to the acceptable route (mid-sized by feudalism, with a tech LEAD, however slight, not tech parity...)

Also, forgive my ignorance, but where is Cracker's thread, and what does CFC refer to?

Arrian · June 5, 2003, 10:08

Civilization Fanatics Center - another Civ site. Check it out.

I fired up a couple of games as India last night to just try them out again, and they really are slow starters... my aggressive opening just doesn't work very well with them. I think they have to build up for a while before busting out.

-Arrian

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 5, 2003, 10:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
I fired up a couple of games as India last night to just try them out again, and they really are slow starters... my aggressive opening just doesn't work very well with them. I think they have to build up for a while before busting out.

Oh yes, CFC, I am fond of the site actually.

So, how would you recommend building up before the busting out? That's where I'm stuck. Especially since Korea (a frequent neighbor) seems so good at doing the same thing... and the Mongols seem likely to just "trade away the world," erasing any tech edge you might get.

On the other hand, I haven't tried the writing-first route yet (haven't played all week). Perhaps that will yield better results in terms of keeping up with the Joneses than would the mysiticism-polytheism route...

Arrian · June 5, 2003, 11:12

I guess you could try going for the Great Library (while trading for or researching some military stuff... at least BW & the Wheel) while REXing and building a few barracks here and there. Then build Horsemen. Lots of 'em. Beeline for Leo's. Make damn sure you get it. Upgrade a shitload of horsemen to War Elephants.

Kill.

-Arrian

p.s. Or, perhaps you could try playing peacefully... since India is set up to be a peaceful type civ. But that doesn't really occur to me anymore...

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 5, 2003, 11:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
p.s. Or, perhaps you could try playing peacefully... since India is set up to be a peaceful type civ. But that doesn't really occur to me anymore...

Were I playing against fewer civs, this is probably the approach I'd take. But yes, against 16 civs, I don't think peaceful is really an option. I think commercial translates more to "huge" empire than "trading" empire, although it's handy for both.

Konquest02 · June 5, 2003, 16:31

Attention all you Indians players...
MZO has created a series of comparison games called The Boot Camp. The first game is played as the Indians on Monarch. Come try your strategies!

http://central.masterzen.net/index.p...=ST&f=62&t=379

--Kon--

UnOrthOdOx · June 6, 2003, 14:07

Speaking of...get the spoiler thread up already, I have my victory ready to submit.

IF YOU ARE PLAYING THE ABOVE GAME, POSSIBLE SPOILERS LAY AHEAD

Consider yourself warned.

UnOrthOdOx · June 6, 2003, 14:35

This was a standard size map on Monarch, but only 8 opponents. And, I am not saying this is the smartest way to play them either.

I really had allot of success in VERY aggressive REXing followed up by culture bombing. I moved the capitol around a few times, eventually ending up back home, just to aid in the culture bomb, and it was as effective, if not as quick, as an early archer rush and left me in a position where nearly anything was possible at one point there. I could have conquered, I could have played nice...

[editted just in case you guys decide to try it out]

UnOrthOdOx · June 6, 2003, 15:07

I do think you are best to avoid the archer rush, and go sword rush if the map allows, otherwise prepare for knights. Not bad timing for a GA either.

Arrian · June 10, 2003, 09:30

Quote:

I guess you could try going for the Great Library (while trading for or researching some military stuff... at least BW & the Wheel) while REXing and building a few barracks here and there. Then build Horsemen. Lots of 'em. Beeline for Leo's. Make damn sure you get it. Upgrade a shitload of horsemen to War Elephants.

Kill.

-Arrian

Well, I started another Indian game and followed my advice. Monarch, standard across the board. I ended up on a 6-civ continent (me, Zulu, Japan, Persia, China, Carthage).

It worked. I got a nice starting spot - though being coastal it wasn't gonna be good long-term. I built a granary & REXed like mad, caving into a demand or two to avoid attack. Luckily for me, the Japanese & Zulu (my Eastern & Northern neighbors, respectively) decided to fight a loooooooong war throughout the ancient age. That left me to build up. I managed to culture flip a Persian city (Persia is my SE neighbor) that controls a bunch of dyes, then my 3rd luxury.

I built the FP one city east of my capitol, and have every intention of moving the palace at some point. I nabbed the GL. Meanwhile, when I had enough horsies & swords, I took out Japan and grabbed some nice land, as well as ivory (lux #4).

Build up, build up, build up. Persia was really giving me a run for my money in the tech race, routinely popping ahead of me here and there. But then I completed Adam Smith's. *BLAM* Golden Age (I also got the Sistine, Leo's, Bachs, Copernicus, and am poised to grab Magellan & Newton). I turned some of my 39 War Elephants on pitiful Zululand and have just about crushed them (2 turns of war, 3 cities captured, 3 cities to go). I will be gaining furs, luxury #5. 2 turns until Military Tradition.

Believe me, I didn't want to go to bed.

Persopolis has the Pyramids, Sun Tzu & the Hanging Gardens. Think I want it? Oh, just a bit. Persia's land is beautiful. It will make an excellent 2nd core.

Oh, and the other 2 civs in the game? Spain & Azteca. They're weak, and give me luxuries for tech. They can live. For now.

-Arrian

dexters · June 10, 2003, 10:13

Arrian, I've been following a lot of your posts and I particularly enjoy your description of your games. Do you have a chronicles webpage somewhere?

Yahweh Sabaoth · June 10, 2003, 10:14

Well, sounds like Arrian's on point, but little Regent boy here just got his butt whupped again this morning. Well, not exactly... just didn't achieve UP, that's all. However, I did learn a few things... (I've also been on a Civ hiatus for over a week, so I'm a bit behind)

Who's India's most dreaded neighbor?

IMHO, Japan. Of course, that depends on the hand Japan is dealt, but in general, no other civ will counteract India's cultural growth like Japan will, while simultaneously building plenty of ground troops and making lots of demands. I have yet to learn the fine art of giving into demands selectively, so often I end up at war with the Japanese too early to make it out big. The Japanese seem pretty levelheaded in terms of realizing when you've over-REXed and it's time for them to attack weak frontier towns that might be connected to your only horsies, iron, etc.

Who's India's most irritating neighbor?

Once again, it depends, but I'd say the Mongols. Often they're just pathetic, but about half the time I'd say they end up with a grotesque tech lead which they're fond of trading away - except to India.

Korea is also quite irritating, as they are good at developing infrastructure, keeping up with tech, REXing and defending themselves - even attacking occassionally.

What should India research first?

Without question (in my mind), WRITING. Good lord. What a difference a tech makes. Compared to the Mysticism-Polytheism route I was following, writing is pure gold. Trade it away for basically any tech you need, and go for Mys.-Poly. next. You'll be a trading master and "keep up with the Joneses" nicely.

Should the Indian player play an "Asia only" game?

NO! At least, not IMO. The Asians for some reason seem to fall far behind in tech and culture, losing out to the overseas. Sure, India can come to dominate Asia, but it'll be far behind the other continents. India often starts with only the Mongols, Japanese, Koreans and Chinese as neighbors. As far as I can tell, it behooves the Indian player to restart and play on the largest continent, as India stands poised to gain from trading... especially if one follows the writing route.

As for as conquest goes, I'm still experimenting, but I'd say that it's worth waging at least one ancient war. India seems to often start with beautiful REXing land, but despite my best efforts, I often get out-REXed, or at least equally REXed, by my neighbors (and no, please don't redirect me to some "how to REX" thread, I've read 99% of 'em).

UnOrthOdOx · June 10, 2003, 10:23

Ive put up my AAR on the MZO game. Played out much similar to Arrian's, though I stayed peacefull throughout (I had never played builder before, and was just messing around, and made many a mistake). There definately was a point where there could have been a nice build-up and conquering. If you're not going to play the MZO game (Monarch, continents, 8 civs), you can have a read here:

http://central.masterzen.net/index.p...=ST&f=62&t=389