PRAVDA SPECIAL EDITION #6 - 3rd June 2003 - A NEW CONSTITUTION ! - Page 2

Corellion · June 8, 2003, 19:26

The whole self-interest versus altruism debate, though an interesting one, ultimately becomes a moot point IMHO. The reasons for doing something don't matter so much as the end result. Besides, anything you do can somehow be traced back to self-interest, but it doesn't matter, and can't really be used to prove anything.
To use Prime Function Drogue's example of giving to charity, why does it matter if you did it because it made you "feel good" to improve the lives of the less fortunate (as it should)? Your intention was to help the less fortunate (if it was solely to make yourself feel good, then you could have probably found some less expensive ways!), and if you yourself derived some benefit from that, all the better.

(Sorry if this post is a little disjointed, but I'm in a hurry).

Drogue · June 9, 2003, 08:26

It would be a moot point on it's own, but it helps us to combat many things. If we admit that humans are selfish, and they do what they do because of their own perceived gain, then we can set up rules and regulations as such. It is very important with regards to game theory, and lets the government set things up so that what is in the interest of the individual is also in the interest of society.

But this isn't the time or the place. Obviously the CyCon have no need of such a system, being a perfectly rational society already

Cedayon · June 9, 2003, 08:32

(note: I'm very very tired right now, so this may make even less sense than it would otherwise, and it also wound up a lot longer)

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Cedayon: But is not the reason that you want to do God's will because that is what you want to do.

The basic question about any act I'm considering or doing is "Am I doing this for God, or for myself?". If I'm doing it for myself (or for anyone other than God) it is sin because I would be making an idol of myself (or whoever else). "for God" could be put as "for God's glory" or "because it's God's will" ... the point is that God is more important to me than I am.

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Not only are their the everlasting benefits from an eternity in heaven, but because you believe that that is what is best for the world, and the reward of that "feel good" feeling. You don't have to choose, it is in your self-interest to accept God. If it wasn't, you would not do it.

Part of what was so surprising to me was that I realized that God's glory/His will being done is more important to me than my eternal fate. The idea of someone with such a mindset going to hell is somewhat paradoxical, so in a sense I "don't have to choose", but I don't do things for the purpose of securing my eternal soul, I do them for God's glory (some things I do for neither, because I'm not perfect, but they are abberations that shall eventually stop rather than part of my nature).

As for the "feel good" feeling, that's the common (and often correct) argument... but I've found that basic sense of wanting whatever God wants (or wanting to know what that is, at least) to be there even in intense suffering, and often more strongly at those times (during some of which I assure you I felt anything but "good"). Paul puts it into words rather well before and in 2 Corinthians 12:10.

Quote:

Take the example of giving to charity. If you give to charity, the feeling you get of doing a good deed, of helping someone who needs that help, is worth more to you than that money does. If it didn't, then you would not give to charity.

Some who give to charity are motivated by that feeling, but not all.

From Maniac's:

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many sociologists would say altruism is just another form of self-interest

Sociologists say lots of things

... there are definately cases where altruism is another form of self-interest, though. I put altruism in quotes in my original post because it wasn't really the word I was looking for but it was the best I could do at the time. I think "selflessness" might be more accurate, but I'm sure sociologists have beaten that one to death too.

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the "at any cost" kinda scares me.

"At any cost" as in even at the cost of my happiness, joy, life, eternal soul, existence, etc... (though, to my knowledge, He would not ask either of the latter two). An example of why this is important: Hezekiah, one of the kings of Judah, got rather ill at one point and God told him (through the prophet Isaiah) that his time had come to die. Hezekiah prayed that God let him live, and God gave him 15 more years. I'm sure Hezekiah thought this was just great at the time, but a number of terrible things happened later that would have been averted if Hezekiah had died when God said it was time (this is from 2 Kings 20 & 21). The point is that we should pray and hope for "God's will; nothing more; nothing less; nothing else; at any cost" ... I'm not sure that's the perfect way of putting it, but it seems accurate.

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What is God's will according to you, and how did you get to know that will?

I only know what He lets me know, of course, and I don't know the details of His will for everything (it's all for His glory, but that's rather broad) ... but as for knowing His will for me and what He wants me to do it's a rather simple matter of knowing His commandments (of which Matthew 22:37-40 is a good summary). "Simple" doesn't mean "easy", of course, but He takes care of it if we let Him.

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I guess we both know each other's opinion about that from previous posts on the matter.

I think we do, no need to debate anything. I obviously enjoy the topic and could go on about it until my Lord gets back, but this really isn't the best way and I do realize it makes most of you folks cringe.

/me looks back over the post at this point, looking for something to cut out because it's so huge... doesn't find anything appropriately non-essential.

Hmm, it'll just be long, then... and just a bit more:

Before God made me a Christian, I essentially felt that the point of my existence was my own enjoyment (or self-interest, if you prefer the term). This was somewhat problematic because I didn't actually enjoy existing (it's really quite a lot of trouble). My desire was thus to simply not be (not death, just simply not being in the first place, but impossible in any event). Living for myself seemed pointless, so I didn't do it very well, and living for another like myself was similarly pointless. Then God stepped in, and to make a long story short I now live for Him because that's what I was designed to do in the first place... and I think my coherency has officially left the building, so I'm stopping here

Jamski · June 9, 2003, 10:03

Wow Cedayon, you're really brave posting this.

Quote:

Before God made me a Christian....

Why hasn't he made me a Christian yet? I tryed hard enough between 14 and 21 years of age, but I didn't become one. I gave up, realising the whole thing was pointless, and I've been a lot happier since.

-Jam

Drogue · June 9, 2003, 11:18

I believe in GooglieGod, for He is the master of all

However you will never find the CyCon succumbing to the belief of Fundy ~~because we cannot~~

Jamski · June 9, 2003, 11:35

Is anyone else amused by the fact that in a Demo Game, one team cannot take the Democratic SE choice? (You know we would if we could

Really we would, everyone like to get +5 growth

)

-Jam

Snowflake · June 9, 2003, 11:35

I've heard people who are happier after they become a Christian. I've heard people who are happier after they become a non-Christian. I guess a common point is that being happy is at least one of the goals that everybody is searching in their lives, right? Or being happy is one of the proofs that one is living his life well?

Anyway, on this note I think one would be perhaps happier not to think too deep. 'cause if you think deeper, this whole thing may be pointless. You live, you die. However you lived, you die anyway. Even if you don't die, you become one of the transcended like in the game, so what?

Like those ants who live in the two dimentional world. They live and die, busy with their lives. They may have their own happiness, troubleness, etc. One day a really smart ant may find out that he can go toward one direction and travel a long way and then come back to his original start point. And he realize that his universe is borderless but finite. They make discoveries, build improvements, fight and make peace. But there are so many things that they never understand, like how one ant suddenly disappeared from their world (May be a two-year old boy just picked it up). They could even climb up a tree and see a entirely different view of their world. But how could a two-dimentional ant, even the most intelligent one, understand the human beings who live in the three-dimentional world? If they do have thoughts, would they think we humans as their god? Who are all mighty, all knowing to their oh so fragile world?

Oh just think about it. We human beings are not that different from a three-dimentional ant. How could we possibly understand everything that is happening in a higher dimentional world? Seems to me that one needs to believe in something, anything. It is just so that you would feel safe. Oh us the poor three-dimentional ants.

Ok this entire post may be quite pointless also. But thinking does make me happier.

Jamski · June 9, 2003, 12:04

/me is a three dimensional ant *

-Jam

Snowflake · June 9, 2003, 12:09

War of Ant?

Drogue · June 9, 2003, 12:10

HongHu: That was great

You argued both Utilitarianism and "ignorance is bliss" in one quick sweep

Quote:

Seems to me that one needs to believe in something, anything. It is just so that you would feel safe. Oh us the poor three-dimentional ants.

I completely agree with that.

Such a logical post, are you sure you chose the right faction to join

Snowflake · June 9, 2003, 16:10

Sometimes you do feel the superiority of the CyCons, such as when TWO words within one sentence is beyond your limited English vocabulary … (No, I’m not gona tell you which two words. Not even which sentence.

)

Quote:

Originally posted by Drogue
Such a logical post, are you sure you chose the right faction to join

Believe it or not, I’m truly a close relative of Chairman Yang. But trust me, logic is valued at the Hive just as highly as efficiency. And it won’t matter anyway, when we finally meet and become pact brothers and sisters.

Jamski · June 9, 2003, 17:20

Quote:

And it won’t matter anyway, when we finally meet and become pact brothers and sisters.

/me also sends big LOVE to the CyCon

-Jam

Voltaire · June 9, 2003, 17:36

Well it looks as though PRAVDA has become the pinnacle of free press and free speech. We have the best discussions after-all.

Jamski · June 9, 2003, 17:42

We have the only discussions Comrade Chairman

-Jam

Cedayon · June 9, 2003, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
Wow Cedayon, you're really brave posting this.

It's not a bravery that comes from myself, but thanks anyway

Quote:

Why hasn't he made me a Christian yet? I tryed hard enough between 14 and 21 years of age, but I didn't become one.

We cannot become Christians by our own effort, it can only happen by God's power (John 6:44, Luke 18:27). It's really not that complicated, though: If you honestly want to be in right relationship with God, just pray to Him and ask for it. The hard part is the "honestly want", and He takes care of that

As for "why not yet?": He has a very good reason, I assure you, but I don't know it off-hand. I could speculate, but this isn't the time or place.

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I gave up, realising the whole thing was pointless, and I've been a lot happier since.

It's futile to try to do it without relying on God, but I wouldn't say pointless... obey His commandments (preferably out of love for Him rather than for your own good) and something good will come of it.
As for being happier after having given up: you were attempting the impossible for ~7 years, naturally you would feel some relief when you stopped. I tell you; however, that you will not find true "happiness" (I would use the term "fulfillment") unless you are in a right relationship with God.

From HongHu's:

Quote:

I guess a common point is that being happy is at least one of the goals that everybody is searching in their lives, right?

I think we all want to be happy, yes, but I think pursuing happiness for it's own sake is pointless... I don't know if that's correct, now that I think about it, as I realize it was partly the pursuit of true happiness that led me to be so dissatisfied with the natural world and to seek God... but not all things we call "happiness" are worth pursuing.

Quote:

Or being happy is one of the proofs that one is living his life well?

True happiness requires right living, but there are things we call happiness that do not always come from what is right, so answering "am I happy?" does not always answer "am I living right?". To put it plainly we can't even answer "is this best for me?". (Proverbs 16:25)

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We human beings are not that different from a three-dimentional ant. How could we possibly understand everything that is happening in a higher dimentional world?

you grasp better than most the difficulty of understanding God and the Truth... as designed we could perceive reality clearly, but in our fallen state we are imperfect and unable to do so (1 Corinthians 13:12).

Quote:

Well it looks as though PRAVDA has become the pinnacle of free press and free speech

Indeed, though there's an uncomfortably large number of Crimson Guards looking pointedly at me right now

Mr. President · June 10, 2003, 00:51

Do you come to the ACDG forum looking for in-depth intellectual debate?

I don't.

Rokossovky · June 10, 2003, 02:16

Ah talk of a God and such! The Dukkha overwhelmes me! HongHu makes many excellent points however.

Quote:

I guess a common point is that being happy is at least one of the goals that everybody is searching in their lives, right?

Oh yes! Happyness is not only a common thread but THE thread. The search for happyness drives ones life. But how is this attainded? It is not by a God, or any other being or belief outside of you. Jamski had the right idea

Quote:

I gave up, realising the whole thing was pointless, and I've been a lot happier since.

Of course you're happier! You stopped trying to live for someone else (God in this case) and you started living for yourself. As the secod noble truth states "The dukkha we feel comes from our desire". You were unhappy because you desired to be what God wanted you to be, to be what other people thought you should be rather than you wanted to be. Before you can decide what to believe and what to pursue you must first find yourself or you will ultimately end up being unhappy in life. And it is possible to attain happyness as the third noble truth states "There's a way to see things differently and end this dukkha". This also relates to HongHu's point of:

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We human beings are not that different from a three-dimentional ant. How could we possibly understand everything that is happening in a higher dimentional world?

To understand the world you must objectify your position. You must let go of all your desires, your attachments, and live only for yourself and happyness. It is then that you can begin to truly understand the world you live in because you can now stand outside of it as a REAL individual. The Buddha did this when he became awakened. We all have that capability... but are we strong enough to let go..?

Jamski · June 10, 2003, 06:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. President
Do you come to the ACDG forum looking for in-depth intellectual debate?

I don't.

Just read only the first page of PRAVDA then. I'll try make sure all the ~~jokes~~ IMPORTANT information stays there, and the discussion happens later.

-Jam

Static Universe · June 10, 2003, 07:01

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu

Like those ants who live in the two dimentional world. They live and die, busy with their lives. They may have their own happiness, troubleness, etc. One day a really smart ant may find out that he can go toward one direction and travel a long way and then come back to his original start point. And he realize that his universe is borderless but finite. They make discoveries, build improvements, fight and make peace. But there are so many things that they never understand, like how one ant suddenly disappeared from their world (May be a two-year old boy just picked it up). They could even climb up a tree and see a entirely different view of their world. But how could a two-dimentional ant, even the most intelligent one, understand the human beings who live in the three-dimentional world? If they do have thoughts, would they think we humans as their god? Who are all mighty, all knowing to their oh so fragile world?

I know just what you mean. A few weeks ago, I was standing at a bus stop and saw a chicken bone on the ground, crawling with ants. In a fit of rage, I kicked the chicken bone away. A few minutes later, I put the chicken bone back so the ants could continue enjoying it. In that moment, I knew what it was to be a god. It's like when Jesus died on the cross, that was God kicking the chicken bone away. Someday, the christians believe, the chicken bone will return. A little girl at the bus stop asked me in the ants have buddha nature. I replied, "Mu."

Drogue · June 10, 2003, 09:10

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
Sometimes you do feel the superiority of the CyCons, such as when TWO words within one sentence is beyond your limited English vocabulary … (No, I’m not gona tell you which two words. Not even which sentence.

)

I'm guessing Utilitarianism was one, if that is the post you meant. Maybe ignorance as the other (I noticed many people didn't understand a thread about that on OTF, "Which country is thenmost ignorant")

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
Believe it or not, I’m truly a close relative of Chairman Yang. But trust me, logic is valued at the Hive just as highly as efficiency.

Efficiency with a Planned economy? My dear friend, did they stop teaching economics in Hive schools?

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
And it won’t matter anyway, when we finally meet and become pact brothers and sisters.

Nice to hear such fine words from so worthy an ally. May logic and industrious equality merge into a superfaction and ~~defeat the evil University~~ transcend to another plane

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. President
Do you come to the ACDG forum looking for in-depth intellectual debate?

I don't.

In short, yes. I come here because I never know what I will find. If you put this many intelligent people in one place, with a basis of philosophy and how to run a nation, they will enevitably discuss it. Intellectual debate between factions, and on faction ideology and roleplay is one of the main reasons I like Democracy Games.

That ant post was fantastic too. The simplest way of explaining the idea of transcendance I've ever seen

Snowflake · June 10, 2003, 12:01

Sometimes the "worthless" life of an ant can become valuable even in the eyes of the "gods" (us), since it can give them such great inspirations.

That makes me wonder that maybe the humble lives of human beings may become quite valuable to our god(s) too. Isn't that a happy and encouraging thought?

On anothe thought, we the gods don't really know what the ants are thinking. GooglieGod, tell me if our god(s) know what we the three-dimentional ants are thinking / praying?

I'm gonna stop right here, before any sad thought can occur. There's always hope.

Drogue · June 10, 2003, 16:06

Since I don't believe in God(s) I don't think they really care about us

Static Universe · June 10, 2003, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu

On anothe thought, we the gods don't really know what the ants are thinking. GooglieGod, tell me if our god(s) know what we the three-dimentional ants are thinking / praying?

I'm gonna stop right here, before any sad thought can occur. There's always hope.

Yes, quit while you're ahead...

Maniac · June 10, 2003, 16:41

Quote:

To understand the world you must objectify your position. You must let go of all your desires, your attachments, and live only for yourself and happyness.

Isn't that kind of the ultimate subjectification instead of objectification?

Happiness for yourself is a desire like any other, which you should let go if you want to objectify your position.

Just teasing you...

I agree with you on several points, though I would phrase it differently.

Snowflake · June 10, 2003, 16:56

Maniac, That was quite a scary thought!

Rokossovky · June 10, 2003, 18:26

Quote:

Isn't that kind of the ultimate subjectification instead of objectification? Happiness for yourself is a desire like any other, which you should let go if you want to objectify your position.

Ah! Maniac is wise! But no! One must understand the difference between a desire and a pursuit of pleasure. When you desire something you often find that once it is done with you want it again, you are not content. If you do something for pleasure and for happiness alone and do not become attached to that, then it is fine. You are left feeling only better, not lacking. But no, happiness is not a desire, it is a state of mind and life. And as for the subjectification, I would disagree. As I said before, by doing this we free ourselves from the world, we detach ourselves from our surroundings and become an entity looking in.

Cedayon · June 10, 2003, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Rokossovky
You stopped trying to live for someone else (God in this case) and you started living for yourself.

If you live for any thing other than God, you make an idol of that thing and thus break the most important commandment of all. Please think about that.

I'm done pontificating, in any case, the time has passed.

Rokossovky · June 10, 2003, 18:39

Quote:

If you live for any thing other than God, you make an idol of that thing and thus break the most important commandment of all. Please think about that.

If one is Christian, yes, that is a problem. But if one is not, then one is free to become enlightened.

- Rokossovky

Corellion · June 10, 2003, 23:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Rokossovky

If one is Christian, yes, that is a problem. But if one is not, then one is free to become enlightened.

- Rokossovky

First, on a purely technical point, I'd like to point out that there are more religions than just Christianity that hold this belief, however I'll assume you were just using that for simplification's sake.

Now, to address the actual point. I disagree with your statement that one can become enlightened only through the sole pursuit of happiness. How can one state truly what makes others happy? You ultimately only have knowledge of yourself (even that is debatable), and cannot tell what happiness is for someone else. Reading through Cedayon's posts, it appears quite clear to me that he is very happy through the pursuit of God's will. Just because that is not something that would make you happy does not make it any less valid. People, being as diverse as they are, can find happiness (or enlightenment, as you call it) in any number of ways. To take the biological viewpoint, happiness is only the condition that exists when your brain detects endorphins (and other chemicals... I'm not a biologist, so don't quote me on this). To take [a] religious viewpoint, happiness is a state that exists when one is pursuing God's will. With the worldview that I have, I tend to agree with the biological viewpoint, but even taking that point does not preclude any of the other possibilites depending upon to whom one is referring.

Take the perverbial ant who has become like a mascot to this discussion, for example. This diminutive creature probably derives happiness (if indeed it derives happiness at all), or some possible equivilent (I strongly considered putting equivilant, but that's too corny) from serving the queen, because that's what genetics has determined is in the best interests of propagating the genes.

This too ultimately connects back to the whole altruism versus self-interest debate. For many people, altruism is self-interest... for others it is not. I tend to take the view that there is no such thing as pure altruism (and from discussion I believe many of you do too), but that does not exclude acts from being altruistic. It all depends on the values and mindset of the person whom you are considering.

Well, I'll leave it at that. I have a habit of becoming somewhat incomprehensible grammatically when talking like this for long periods of time, so please excuse me if it is.

Rokossovky · June 11, 2003, 00:14

Quote:

I disagree with your statement that one can become enlightened only through the sole pursuit of happiness

It is not the pursuit of happiness that brings enlightment, but enlightenment that brings happiness. What you need to pursue is a life free of dukkha (can roughly be translated as suffering). It is only once you are free of dukkha that you can be truely happy because you have gained enlightenment. You will not gain enlightenment by arbirarily trying to become happy. It is a result, not a cause. "live for happiness" is what I believe I said.

Quote:

Reading through Cedayon's posts, it appears quite clear to me that he is very happy through the pursuit of God's will

If that is what pleases him then more power to him. What I said was that you will only be able to find true enlightenment and thus true happiness when you stop living a life for someone else and live your life for you. Also, it is not the fact that I wouldn't enjoy it that detracts from it's ability to produce true happiness, it is the fact that you attach yourself and limit your perspective. As Cedayon pointed out, living your life for God is a Fundamental of christian beliefs. He will disagree I am sure, but in my view this is placing you in a box where the light of the outside can only shine in through one hole. But once again, i am not trying to convert him, just sharing my views as you and him seem to be doing as well.