The Weather Paradigm

Corellion · June 3, 2003, 21:53

I know I'm not the Advisor on Internal Affairs, but I have no Foreign matters to deal with, and have thus been wondering about other things.

When does everyone think we should start building the Weather Paradigm? Do we want to begin construction the moment that it is available at the base with the largest mineral production (presumably Apolyton Prime, but we'll see at the time), or do we want every base to pump out a few formers first? Given the importance of this project to a) the game and b) the terraforming plan we appear to have agreed on, it seems important that we develop a strategy early, so we can start setting up everything so there is the least loss of productive capacity and for the least time.

Cedayon · June 4, 2003, 01:49

hmm, the advantage of a few extra formers early on is very important... but we can't kid ourselves, those other factions are going to be *very* interested in getting the WP, so I think we need every single bit of turn advantage we can get on it.

DeathByTheSword · June 4, 2003, 04:54

I agree... go for it as soon as possible...maybe even disband some troops (if we have them) (no formers) to get extra minerals and rush it as soon as possible...if it only would save us one turn it would be benifical.!

Method · June 4, 2003, 15:14

i'd say wait a while until after we have enough crawlers to finish it really quickly. generally it can be done sooner with crawlers than if you start it ASAP and go without them.

consider that at least, it will take 50 turns to build the WP. we'll be finished around 2160. with crawlers, it can be built in about 10 turns. the only problem is, we might not get the indus auto soon enough. that sometime ruins the plan, but not often.

so pray to googliegod!

DeathByTheSword · June 4, 2003, 15:17

i dont think we should count on that....if we get it fine by me....but i dont believe we will

Drogue · June 4, 2003, 20:24

I don't think we will get it soon enough. I will be very surprised if someone doesn't have it by 2150, and in multiplayers I have played it's usually nearer 2130-40. I think build it in AP ASAP (after former, before anything else), change to Planned to make it easier, and crawler upgrade-rush it as soon as we get Ind Auto. The WP is very important, without the EG, probably the most important. Although if we can stop the PUT getting the Virtual World it would be nice.

Chaunk · June 5, 2003, 13:27

I think we shouldn't be too disappointed if we don't get the WP. I think the HGP would possibly be more useful for the easier ability to GA pop-boom, and we'd likely have 10 more years to build that one.

Although pretty much any SP would be nice...

C

Maniac · June 5, 2003, 14:28

Ha! Someone with the same opinion as I have!

I think too there's practically no chance we'll get the WP with that level of competition. I think we should rather focus on HGP and designate a base to build it asap. Perhaps we should hold a poll about it: what SP to aim for first?

Drogue · June 5, 2003, 14:33

A good idea, we should poll it. Although it makes decent terraforming much harder. When I can get the screenshot right, I will post what I mean in the terraforming plan thread. It works wonders. I guess well have to stick predominantly to forests for the moment, and make tree farms/hybrid forests as fast as possible.

Won't people rush for the HGP too? I know it's not so hard to, but also less useful. Think of the sheer amount of terraforming we can get done with the WP that we can't without.

Corellion · June 6, 2003, 01:47

I've got a simple solution to all our problems... get both! As a matter of fact, throw in a few others in there too; there's no harm in that. And when we have them all, we'll be practically unstoppable.

It's as simple as that.

Corellion · June 6, 2003, 01:57

We should probably go for the WP anyway, considering we'll get it first. Besides, the WP is almost indispensible to the builder's game, and our discussions so far have pointed to that strategy. Besides, our Ever-Rational Prime Function's terraforming plan requires that we get it or wait for EE, a long wait. I'd much rather us go full-steam for the WP. We'll only be at most 3 turns behind the first faction to get it, and with planned we can drop the mineral requirements. The main worries for us, though, are the PUT and the Hive. I'm relatively confident, however, that neither of them have planned, so we can make up some of the difference there.

Maniac · June 6, 2003, 04:50

Quote:

get both!

There's a big difference between wish and reality. Easier said than done.

Cedayon · June 6, 2003, 10:38

I think he was joking

Googlie · June 6, 2003, 11:34

Hmmm - in both the playtest games Roze got the WP at around 2132, and Miriam the CDF a year later. They must have cashed in the handful of trance armored drop crawlers I set to lurk for 30 years

G.
.................................................. .................................................. ......................just kidding, by Googlie, 06/06/03

Maniac · June 6, 2003, 12:10

Quote:

I think he was joking

It seems so obvious now I reread his post. That's the problem with not hearing the other person on the internet.

Chaunk · June 6, 2003, 13:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Corellion
Besides, our Ever-Rational Prime Function's terraforming plan requires that we get it or wait for EE, a long wait. I'd much rather us go full-steam for the WP. We'll only be at most 3 turns behind the first faction to get it, and with planned we can drop the mineral requirements.

To be honest, all those Boreholes will be nice, but we'd need EE to actually use them properlly. I don't see that waiting a few turns is necessarily that much of a problem, but not being able to pop boom very well could be.

Just my thoughts

C

Maniac · June 6, 2003, 13:48

This guy knows what he's talking about!

Corellion · June 6, 2003, 15:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaunk

To be honest, all those Boreholes will be nice, but we'd need EE to actually use them properlly.

We would need EE to use them properly, but we can save very many turns by having the infrastructure in place when we finally do get EE. Our production will skyrocket at that point, rather than gradually increasing over a few decades.

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaunk

I don't see that waiting a few turns is necessarily that much of a problem, but not being able to pop boom very well could be.

But this is not just "a few turns". Assuming that we go directly for EE, then we have to research through 8 techs to get there. If we manage an incredible research rate of 5 turns/tech, that's 40 turns! Assuming it takes 20 turns to build the WP, that's 20 turns that could be spent terraforming. That's not just "a few turns".

Just to clarify, I think that your (Manic and Chaunk, as well as any others who support this idea) reasoning is completely valid, and there is definitely merit in going for the HGP first. I'm not saying that it's a stupid idea... it's actually a very good one, and I would be more than happy to go for it under other circumstances.

Just thought I'd clarify that, as I've had multiple debates where I end up accidentally antagonising people.

Drogue · June 6, 2003, 18:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
This guy knows what he's talking about!

Just because he agrees with you

But you are correct, Chaunk is an exceedingly rational member, and his ideas are well thought out. I will poll, and link to this thread. There will be 2 questions. Should we go all out for an SP, and if so, should it be the HGP, the Virtual World or the WP. Has been posted here.

Drogue · June 6, 2003, 18:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Chaunk
but not being able to pop boom very well could be.

I doubt we will be able to anyway. That would require us having Democracy (bad for new bases) and Planned (bad for tech and Ec) and building many CCs, IIRC. It would be great, but would be very hard to do. While I accept your argument, and would not mind going for the HGP that much, I think pop-booming might be hard for quite a while.

Also, without the WP, I suggest we take a hybrid/conqueror stace. We have techsteal, so let us use our research to get Doc. AP, MMI and SFF ASAP, and then rip the heart out of the PUT

*cough*

Good idea?

Maniac · June 6, 2003, 18:56

Being democratic and planned, and building CCs is the easy way of pop-booming, at least for factions which don't have a growth penalty. But we do. So besides those three conditions, we also need to have Golden Ages. And with planned, those are quite hard to get. Also there is the disadvantage that any psych point beyond 2 times the base size (for example if the base size is 6, only 12 psych points have an effect, even if you would produce 20 of them). This fact makes it impossible to popboom if we would have B-drones ("very unhappy citizens" created by expansion etcetera), as than we would be unable to create enough talents to make half of our base talented. The only way to get enough talents anyway in the early/mid-game is by building the HGP.

So the choice is the following when determining what SP to aim for: Do we choose for faster terraforming and the inability to popboom, or do we choose for popbooming but normal terraforming speed?
If we don't build the WP, we will have equal terraforming speed as five other factions. Only one faction will have an advantage over us. But if we don't build the HGP, we will face no less than three human factions (not the Pirates, but they have faster growth due to kelp farms) that have the ability to popboom, contrary to us. Anyone familiar with popbooming knows that it can triple your production, economy and labs in a matter of years. The WP's effects are also big, but not thàt big. So when faced with the choice between an advantage we have over the other factions, or a *crucial* advantage we don't have, but all the other humans do, then the choice is simple for me. If we didn't have the growth penalty, I'd gladly vote for the WP. But since we're playing the CyCon, HGP is the way to go IMO.

I'll repost this too in the poll thread to better influence people's opinion.