Happy Tiananmen Square Massacre Day

[mindseye]

That seems to suggest that when these killings happened they happened outside of media coverage. This is far too convenient to be believed.

Not at all. The western media was all concentrated in the hotels around the square. They were there for Gorbachev's imminent visit. At that time, foreigners were only allowed to stay at designated hotels. You didn’t know that?

So when did you start taking quotes out of context?

Huh? You weren't talking about the violent response to the protests? Here's the original context:

GePap: "The protests were not violent, until the Party leadership begun to move against it."

UR:"Where else in the modern history of the world has there been a huge group was allowed to continue to occupy an important area and caused such an enormous disruption? I'd say the CCP handling was overly lenient, the crowd should have been dispersed much, much, earlier, like everywhere else in the world.


So are you saying that your claim that the response was lenient wasn't referring to GePap's quote about the violent response?

Okay, assume that there are indeed lots of Westerners there and lots of Chinese eyewitnesses. What did they say? How could that be verified?

Well, you just read some of what they said. As for verifying it, attributed quotes published in western papers and books are usually reasonably realiable. If you doubt them, you could track down the speakers and ask them yourself. There are still plenty of mothers in Beijing who never saw their son, daughter, or husband again after that day.

There are a lot of things being alleged at, but there is no solid evidence to back anything up. This is almost surreal, it's like speaking about Roswell, UFO's, and men in black.

I guess if you call photographs of burning APCs and scores, even hundreds of mutually consistant eyewitness accounts "surreal", then I suppose it was a surreal happening, as surreal as any other in history.

By the way, we're not just talking about American newspapers here, are we? Media all over the world do not dispute the events of that day, not to mention respected ngo's like Amnesty International. If this was some sort of collosal American conspiracy, don't you think media all over the rest of the world would jump on it? How about Jonathon Spence? He has written that 700 were killed during the events of that day.

This was one of the major causes if not the major cause. Had the students left as they promised, the crackdown would not have happened.

Are you saying that this justified the military response? As Spiffor pointed out, there are accepted crowd control techniques used all over the world that do not involve opening up on crowds of people with rifles and machine guns!

Would you not classify that as anarchist behaviour?

It was a reaction, not the cause. The people did not start barricading streets until they perceived (correctly) that an armed military force posed a mortal threat to the crowds of college students. The people tried to stop the military because they were extremely angry at the government's reaction ... and they wanted to save their children's lives!

I do not recall two waves of soldiers coming into the city. AFAIK, the troops matched into the city came from the Western provinces.

I am not surprised, your "recollection" of the events seems quite poor, to say the least. The first soldiers involved, from the 38th Army, reached the square on May 23. They had been sent in for crowd control. They were young and green. They refused to fire on the crowds, some climbed out of their trucks in tears. Many ended up singing patriotic songs with the protesters (the protesters were taking pains to show their patriotism, another oft-overlooked fact). After this failure, Deng organized a massive force of about 200,000 veteran troops, drawn mainly from the 27th Division, to surround the city. Many of them,as you noted, were drawn from western provinces, so there was less chance they would associate themselves with the people. This was when the people started erecting barricades. Most of the killings occurred in the area of the Muxidi Bridge in the western suburbs, when the 27th started shooting their way into the city center.

And remarkably, absolutely no images.

That's quite wrong. I've seen a few (notably burning APCs, people running in the square, bicycle ambulances, etc), although I cannot find them on the web because Beijing blocks searches for images of Tiananmen (what does that tell you?). Why so few? Well, few if any Chinese had camcorders or digital cameras in 1989. Some of the people who took photos were apparently killed in the fighting.. Of those who took shots, I can imagine many were too afraid to have them developed. Many Western reporters had their cameras seized by police. So is it really all that surprising that there are few images?

While I couldn't find any photos on-line (ahem), I did find a link to a book which claims to contain 232 photos: "June Four: A Chronicle of the Chinese Democratic Uprising" Here's the link


Here's an excellent, highly-detailed account written by an American communist who witnessed many of the events (including deaths).

[mindseye]

Hey,Urban Ranger -

There are a lot of things being alleged at, but there is no solid evidence to back anything up. This is almost surreal, it's like speaking about Roswell, UFO's, and men in black.
(...)
And remarkably, absolutely no images.

You better put on your seat belt because I’m about to rock your world! I actually found photos on the web!

It took me a while to paste them together, but here they are. I know you're in complete denial that "Beijing Spring" ever took place outside of the conspiratorial imaginations of westerners, so I don't know how you're going to mentally process these shots. Prepare for some serious cognitive dissonance. Roswell indeed!

CAUTION: some of these photos are not pleasant to look at.
Sometimes history is like that.

PART I

1) PLA armor forces on the outskirts of Beijing
2) Beijingers rush to meet PLA
3) Initial confrontations, people block vehicles
4) People use their bodies to block vehicles
5) Bike wrecks after 3 killed by armored vehicle
6) Soldiers beating up pedestrians
7) Burnt body
8) Burning APC
9) Column of trucks, some burning
10) Abandoned APC
11) PLA soldiers with rifles and gas masks
12) Smoke from burning vehicles
13) More burned and abandoned military vehicles
14) Citizens use burnt bus to build barricade
15) Motorcycle crushed by tank

[mindseye]

PART II

1) Advancing armor
2) Bodies scattered on ChangAn Avenue
3) Massing armor
4) Bullet holes on building
5) Injured civilian
6) Injured student
7) Dead student
8) Sheets cover dead bodies in a hospital
9) Wounded on bicycle stretcher
10) (same)
11) Blood on the ground the next day
12) Student with bullet wound in head
13) Wounded civilian with "trophy"
14) Looking for loved ones
15) Protests in other cities: Shanghai

[Drake Tungsten]

Here's a link to another good site with many pictures of the massacre.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/sdc/tiananmen.html

As for UR's attempts to defend the massacre...

A poor showing, even for you.

[Saras]

Urban Ranger, you were in my "reasonable guy I tend to disagree with" book, but you somehow managed to put yourself into "holocaust deniers and other LaRusso type idiots" book.

Congrats.

[alva]

Urban Ranger, you were in my "reasonable guy I tend to disagree with" book, but you somehow managed to put yourself into "holocaust deniers and other LaRusso type idiots" book.

I was looking at his avatar the whole to see if it was really him and not ***

Ah, maybe he just had a bad day

[Az]

Ah, maybe he just had a bad day

what do you mean by that?

[TheStinger]

I'm not sure how UR defends this. Of course now he will probaly bring up some dreadful part of British History because that will make it all better

[alva]

Originally posted by Azazel

Quote:

Ah, maybe he just had a bad day

what do you mean by that?

???
What you do mean by "what do you mean by that"?

[Sikander]

Originally posted by ranskaldan


Where the hell is everyone?!

Anyway:


If the demonstrators had gotten what they wanted, China would have been grandly screwed. A Russia-times-100 anarchy would have plunged the Chinese people into misery that few of us (American OR Chinese) can even fathom today.

Is it right to kill one innocent to save the lives of one hundred?

I'm sure a lot of you think that, in retrospect, the Iraqi War was a good thing. Many Iraqis died under tragic circumstances, but in the long-term, Iraq will become a much nicer place for future generations.

[Yes. I know the circumstances are not the same. But the same moral judgement comes into play: that's the one in bold above.]

So, why the double standard?

I'll allow Tingkai and UR to make the comparisons to the Vietnam War demonstrations.

You seem pretty sure that:

1) You know what the protestors wanted, and that it stood no chance of success.

2) That the only way the government could deal with this is to kill them, and imprison the survivors and anyone else handy.

I guess Chinese people are too barbaric to have dialogues, or make compromises in your view. I think better of them than that.

[Az]

What you do mean by "what do you mean by that"?

Well, I wonder what you thought when you said he had a bad day. did you think that?

a) He didn't mean what he said.
b) He's not good at presenting his arguments, but usually he is.
c) You're in utter shock as your favourite seeker of justice, and anti-american poster, turns out to support a cruel and barbaric practice, which reminded you of the Communist-Muslim alliance in your home country's recent elections.
d) Something Else/ " I don't Know" / Banana.

[alva]

quote:
What you do mean by "what do you mean by that"?

Well, I wonder what you thought when you said he had a bad day. did you think that?

a) He didn't mean what he said.
b) He's not good at presenting his arguments, but usually he is.
c) You're in utter shock as your favourite seeker of justice, and anti-american poster, turns out to support a cruel and barbaric practice, which reminded you of the Communist-Muslim alliance in your home country's recent elections.
d) Something Else/ " I don't Know" / Banana.

That although I don't always agree with UR's posts (no, I don't keep track), that he often has valid points and are presented with a -I can see where you're coming from (<--don't mean geography wise )- kind of feel.
The one in this are [diplomatic mode] a tad more extreem then usual, therefore I made a little side note that perhaps something that happened during his day might have negatively influenced his views and posting. That's all.

Ohh btw:

c) You're in utter shock as your favourite seeker of justice, and anti-american poster, turns out to support a cruel and barbaric practice, which reminded you of the Communist-Muslim alliance in your home country's recent elections.

1.
2. Are you talking 'bout the AEL ? We can't go right can we. We are either facists if we go VB or terrorist if we go the other way.
They didn't get many votes anyway did they, something like one percent in one city (yes, the one where I live).

[Az]

The one in this are [diplomatic mode] a tad more extreem then usual, therefore I made a little side note that perhaps something that happened during his day might have negatively influenced his views and posting. That's all.

I don't see any inconsistency between his previous posts and those posts. They're all parallel to the CCP line. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? your call

Are you talking 'bout the AEL ? We can't go right can we. We are either facists if we go VB or terrorist if we go the other way.

1.
2.If you choose between Vlaams Block and that other party who's name I don't know then, yes, indeed, you're either Fascist or terrorist.

[Ecthy]

PRC

[alva]

I don't see any inconsistency between his previous posts and those posts. They're all parallel to the CCP line. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? your call

I don't think we should talk about people'(s posting habits) while their not here, so eugh, I'm not going to
-

2.If you choose between Vlaams Block and that other party who's name I don't know then, yes, indeed, you're either Fascist or terrorist.

I truthfully can say that I'm not a facist-commie-terrorist...

Now, go back ON-topic !!!

[Ecthy]

isn't it despicable how so many europeans think they're OK by voting right wingers but always blame France and Germany (also Austria) as soon as some conservative forces gain ground there? it was really laughable how all the Dutchies voted for those Fortuyn Nazis just because their guy had been shot, and they thought they were so morally just when they were indeed voting for a repressive party. same about vlaams block....

societies in countries that were occupied by the real Nazis back then just have no conscious. it's like they think they're always right just because they've been oppressed before

[Az]

I liked "List Pym".

[Ecthy]

that also applies for Jews/Israelis BTW... no morals when it comes to politics...

that's why Germans are truly superior in that way, we have actually made the necessary experiences to political modesty

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by TheStinger
I'm not sure how UR defends this. Of course now he will probaly bring up some dreadful part of British History because that will make it all better

It will American history if he stays true to form.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Damn you DaShi. I had a nice Tiananmen remembrance thread all prepared at 2 am last night, but my internet connection crapped out and now you've beat me to it. Oh well, I might as well post what I had to say anyway...

On this day fourteen years ago, thousands of innocent protestors were murdered in cold blood on Tiananmen Square. These protestors, mostly young college students, wanted nothing more than to push for democratic reform and an end to corruption in the authoritarian Chinese government. On June 4, 1989 many of these brave protestors paid the ultimate price in their pursuit of these noble goals, dying at the hands of the People's "Liberation" Army sent to end their peaceful demonstration. It is estimated that over 7000 protestors were killed and thousands more wounded, although the cover-up by the Chinese government means that we will probably never know for sure.

No member of the Chinese Communist goverment was ever punished for this appaling atrocity. The families of the victims have received no semblance of justice. Yet, as the years go by and business between China and the rest of the world booms, the events at Tiananmen Square have fallen farther and farther from view. This is a disheartening turn of events, as the government of China has shown no remorse for their actions, no sign that they understand that what they did was wrong.

Tiananmen Square is not the totality of Chinese human rights abuses; it is merely the most visible incident. The Communist government in China has a long history of unleashing misery upon its own population, from the Great Leap Forward to the Cultural Revolution. After the savagery on Tiananmen Square, it seemed for a brief time that the world might be serious about holding China to account for it atrocious human rights record. This wasn't to be the case. Today, China continues its brutal repression of its citizens, as shown by current crackdowns on political dissidents and religious groups like Falun Gong, with very little in the way of protest by the international community.

On the anniversary of this horrible tragedy, let us remember the bravery of those protestors who stood up and died in the pursuit of democracy. Let us also think of those brave souls who are fighting for democracy in China as we speak, in spite of the danger posed to them by the thuggish Communist leadership. Finally, let us all recapture some of the spirit of Tiananmen and do what we can to push for change in the People's Republic of China. The fallen deserve better than to have died in vain.

Never forget...

Sorry about that. Nice post though.

[Az]

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


If this sort of conspiracy theorist approach is used in any other serious context, such as NASA faking moon landings and detention camps in the US, you'd be laughed out of the room. However, since this is about the evil CCP slaughtering thousands of "democratic reformers," bald assertions work fine for a change.





So, how come there are no images of tanks running over these protestors or PLA soldiers shooting them in cold blood? Even the famed CNN footage showed the tank column tried not to crush the guy standing in the way.

Fetish! Fetish! You can't help it, can you?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Yet, the students, for one reason or another, refused to hold up their end of the deal. This made for some pretty bad situation in the party, because the hardliners could use the situation as leverage against Deng, and time was running out for him. So much so that ruled out pretty much the rest of the methods you suggested.

What deal? The student's never agreed to leave. They never broke their word. And Deng's power was never threatened. The hardliner's only feared the weakening of Communist party's rule. They didn't want their dirty deals out in the open either. In the end, Deng was forced to choose between the hardliners and the more tolerant party members. But all the misinformation and deception in the party led him to favor the strong arm approach, which he was initially against. He then replaced high ranking party members with more hardline party members setting back China's reform for over a decade. Now when anybody screams human rights abuses in China, the only retort of the Chinese is look what the US is doing (a popular method founded by Jiang Zemin) instead of addressing the issue and working to reform it.

The irony of your post is that because of the Tiananmen Massacre Deng lost a lot of the respect from the Chinese people. In their minds he was worse than Mao, who was responsible for the deaths of far more Chinese people. The interesting thing that I have seen in China regarding these type of events is that the Chinese people don't run around killing eachother until their leaders make them.

[mindseye]

To be fair ...

thousands of innocent protestors were murdered in cold blood on Tiananmen Square.

No one really knows how many died on that day, but the best guesses are in the 500 - 1,500 range, with thousands more (both civilians and soldiers) injured. Still quite a carnage.

Quite a few more vanished over the course of the following year, either disappearing into labor camps or being executed. That number is even harder to estimate, as the toll took place over a long period, affecting people all over the entire country. My boss, for instance, spent two years in prison for being a student organizer ... in Sichuan province! He was thousands of miles from the happenings in Beijing!

Today, China continues its brutal repression of its citizens

Some qualification is needed here. Most Chinese people do not feel oppressed. Of course, do something like try to organize a pro-democracy political party, organize workers, etc. and you will find yourself in big, big trouble.

It seems that the Party is normally mroe or less benign towards the citizenry. But woe unto anyone who is perceived to be a threat - however small - to the Party's continued rule. Threaten a cadre's position (or corruption pipeline) and you will be ruthlessly dealt with. Yet for most people, the Party is a friendly organization, sort of a combination of Rotary Club and local labor union. It's an odd situation, but there it is.

[Arrian]

Wow. I never expected to see not one, but two posters attempt to defend the CCP's handling of this incident - mostly on its own "merits" without much "look over here!!" misdirection regarding bad things done by the US. Sure, there was some of that (mostly by the usual suspect, UR).

I really expected a "hey, it was bad, but no worse than bad things done by other countries" line. I never expected "the CCP was lenient."

'poly managed to surprise me.

-Arrian

[Adam Smith]

It is true that Chinese dynasties eventually collapsed under their own weight and descended into anarchy. I could see that as a fear of the leadership. (Have we lost the Mandate of Heaven? ) But I think analogy to the Cultural Revolution is incorrect, since the Cultural Revolution was intentional anarchy. People I spoke with in China wanted to prevent another Cultural Revolution by limiting the government's ability to undertake such a policy.

Anybody who thinks that China is close to a market economy should have witnessed the scene where I had to explain to a local Communist Party official what an economist is. He just couldn't get it. After about 10 minutes I gave up and told him I was an engineer.

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Adam Smith

Anybody who thinks that China is close to a market economy should have witnessed the scene where I had to explain to a local Communist Party official what an economist is. He just couldn't get it. After about 10 minutes I gave up and told him I was an engineer.

Wow and who says Communism has no redeeming feartures

[Arrian]

-Arrian

[GePap]

Just to nitpick..wouldn't not knowing what an economist is be evidence agaisnt them being marxists? After all, it wasn't engineering that Maxr wrote about, and the Soviets had plenty of economists.

[Saras]

--"...and the Soviets had plenty of economists."

LOL!