Suicide Bombing in Jerusalem, 15+ Dead

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Arrian
If the leaders of each side really want peace, they should press ahead with peace negotiations and do their best to ignore the killing. Negotiate under fire, in other words.

Negotiate under fire = let innocent israelis die and do nothing.

Ignore the killings? Are you serious? We are talking about innocent lives being lost!

Israel should just sit back and allow dozens of innocent life to be murdered, and do nothing???? How can you say such a thing?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

The terrorists will claim that they were the ones that got Israel to withdraw.

Yeah, so? Then they'll have to deal with statehood and not just try to get a state. A lot of their support for further attacks will be lessened because the people will ask for more services.

Quote:

Except Abbas doesn't have any power now since Arafat is the one guiding all his actions.

If you actually have a state with real elections (which can be demanded in a peace settlement and gotten with little hassle), then Abbas WILL have power, if he wins.

Quote:

Except that if that happens - and I'm fairly confident it will - we'll just end up back here, except under worse conditions.

I doubt that. It'll be a better situation in that case, IMO. You could do kinda what the US is trying in Iraq. Israel doesn't want to get involved in the creation of a Palestinian democracy, so naturally it won't happen unless there is external prodding (like Bush did to get Abbas in power).

hi ,

imran , with all do respect but thats bull , .....

why on earth do you think that we continue to sit on the table trying to work out peace , why do you think we give them money and support for the PA , .....

if we really would not want a pal democrazy then we would not even bother , .....

have a nice day

[Imran Siddiqui]

if we really would not want a pal democrazy then we would not even bother

If you really wanted a Palestinian democracy, you would have installed it as well as improved the infrastructure when you had actual control over the area. Instead you brought Arafat from Tunesia and negotiated with him.

You don't CARE about a Palestinian democracy. If Abbas turned into a dictator but stopped the bombings, you'd be perfectly content!

Ignore the killings? Are you serious? We are talking about innocent lives being lost!

Israel should just sit back and allow dozens of innocent life to be murdered, and do nothing???? How can you say such a thing?

What about the other side. You can't say that Palestinians haven't died either. They have to ignore the killing as well. And that is the only way to true peace, when both sides ignore the loonies and try to get together to make it work and then join together AGAINST the loonies!

[Panag]

Originally posted by Arrian


This qualifies as one of those rare occasions on which I totally agree with Agathon.

What's done is done. Israel exists and isn't going away. The Palestinian people exist, and clearly aren't going to vanish. Thus, compromise is the only way out.

If the leaders of each side really want peace, they should press ahead with peace negotiations and do their best to ignore the killing. Negotiate under fire, in other words.

-Arrian

hi ,

arrian what do you think is been going on for the last couple of years , ...... we are negociating even there are so many incidents and lives being lost as we speak , ......

or what does "under fire" mean in your book , .....

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

if we really would not want a pal democrazy then we would not even bother

If you really wanted a Palestinian democracy, you would have installed it as well as improved the infrastructure when you had actual control over the area. Instead you brought Arafat from Tunesia and negotiated with him.

You don't CARE about a Palestinian democracy. If Abbas turned into a dictator but stopped the bombings, you'd be perfectly content!

Quote:

Ignore the killings? Are you serious? We are talking about innocent lives being lost! Israel should just sit back and allow dozens of innocent life to be murdered, and do nothing???? How can you say such a thing?

What about the other side. You can't say that Palestinians haven't died either. They have to ignore the killing as well. And that is the only way to true peace, when both sides ignore the loonies and try to get together to make it work and then join together AGAINST the loonies!

hi ,

we cant install anything , they have to do so , we can build the buildings for them , give them comps , paper , money , guns ( they shoot at us with them ) a library with all the constitutions of the world ( done that ! ) but they have to do it , they have to build the country , ..... and that goes for any nation , you cant "install" , .....

and if would not care we would not even have given the guns from the oslo deal , the ones they now use to shoot at us , ....

so please , dont say that we dont care , .....

or what do you think i do then in brussels or at any other meeting all over the world , ......

or what do you think the other people in wash ny and bxl do , ..... we try to get a solid peace , ....

so please don,t say we dont care cause thats a plain simple outright lie , ......

and if you would know one or two things , we dont remove arafat , thats up to the palestinians , ..... your statement draws against your previous one , .....

we dont install or remove people like that , it oes not work , not in Israel , not in Greece , spain , the us , not on any other single country of this world , ......

have a nice day

[Arrian]

Negotiate under fire = let innocent israelis die and do nothing.

Ignore the killings? Are you serious? We are talking about innocent lives being lost!

Israel should just sit back and allow dozens of innocent life to be murdered, and do nothing???? How can you say such a thing?

I SAID BOTH SIDES! Hamas continues to do its thing. The IDF continues to do its thing.

Meanwhile, Sharon & Abbas negotiate a settlement, and shut their traps about the killing by both sides.

-Arrian

[Panag]

Originally posted by Arrian


I SAID BOTH SIDES! Hamas continues to do its thing. The IDF continues to do its thing.

Meanwhile, Sharon & Abbas negotiate a settlement, and shut their traps about the killing by both sides.

-Arrian

hi ,

what thing we do , ..... what , .......????

none , because if we really where to do our thing as you call it then everything would be finished within three months , .....

we behave and act nice , we are the ones that hand out our hand , and who spits on that hand , ......

thats the fact , ....

have a nice day

[Sirotnikov]

If you really wanted a Palestinian democracy, you would have installed it as well as improved the infrastructure when you had actual control over the area. Instead you brought Arafat from Tunesia and negotiated with him.

You don't CARE about a Palestinian democracy. If Abbas turned into a dictator but stopped the bombings, you'd be perfectly content!

I admit, we were wrong.

It was wrong to bring Arafat.

Israel really did think that as a dictator, Arafat will be better equipped to stop terrorism, than IDF, since IDF actions are governed by government, parliament and the supreme court, which is open to palesatinian plaints since they are under our occupation.


btw, I use the word occupation in regards to the population. I have no doubt that the palestinian population is occupied.

I don't think of the territories as occupied. While Israel 'occupies' a good portion of them (as in 'is the active ruler of those lands'), I think that they are disputed and not clearly palestinian. This is because there were no Palestinian claims to the West Bank and Gaza, when they were controlled by Arab countries (pre-1967).

[Arrian]

panag,

What I mean is this: in order for peace to be possible, both sides must keep negotiating no matter what happens. No matter how horrible a terract may occur. No matter how many bystanders get blown to pieces by an Israeli helicopter, the leadership of both sides should continue to talk peace.

In the past, after a period of violence, one side or the other would back out, using the violence done by the other side as an excuse.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that Israel is the "bad guy" here.

-Arrian

[Edan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If you really wanted a Palestinian democracy, you would have installed it as well as improved the infrastructure when you had actual control over the area.

Installed it? How... easy.

Instead you brought Arafat from Tunesia and negotiated with him.

When Israel negotiated with the Palestinians back in Madrid and the start of Oslo, they weren't negotitating with Arafat - they negotiated with the Palestinian representatives in the territories - the problem is that at every point in the negotitations, they would run to the telephone to call Arafat to get instructions from him how to proceed. In the end, the advisors to Rabin convinced him that it would be easier to simply negotiate directly with Arafat.

That was a major mistake.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Israel really did think that as a dictator, Arafat will be better equipped to stop terrorism, than IDF, since IDF actions are governed by government, parliament and the supreme court, which is open to palesatinian plaints since they are under our occupation.

This is why I think that Isreal doesn't care if there is a dictatorship in Palestine, as long as it is beneficial to them. IMO, you could have stopped this by building up Palestine when you got it, and help the people out of their refugee camps and build a democracy. YES, it might have costed a lot of money, but a lot more has been spent the long run.

You must admit, your rule hasn't always been nice.

These days, it is hard to go back, but you have to plunge ahead and ignore the idiots, until you can join together to do something about it. Hamas won't be beaten until BOTH the IDF and Palestinian forces work together to eliminate them... but that requires peace.

[Az]

This is why I think that Isreal doesn't care if there is a dictatorship in Palestine, as long as it is beneficial to them. IMO, you could have stopped this by building up Palestine when you got it, and help the people out of their refugee camps and build a democracy. YES, it might have costed a lot of money, but a lot more has been spent the long run.

When, in the 60s? you realize that Arafat would be in an autonomous palestine in 2 seconds.

Besides, where would we get the money?

[Arrian]

From us, I'm sure.



-Arrian

[Panag]

Originally posted by Arrian
panag,

What I mean is this: in order for peace to be possible, both sides must keep negotiating no matter what happens. No matter how horrible a terract may occur. No matter how many bystanders get blown to pieces by an Israeli helicopter, the leadership of both sides should continue to talk peace.

In the past, after a period of violence, one side or the other would back out, using the violence done by the other side as an excuse.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that Israel is the "bad guy" here.

-Arrian

hi ,

read the roadmap thread btw , ......

look , we are trying to sit on the table , and at least we kicked everyone out because both parties feel that outside involment mainly from the eu and russia is causing us more problems then anything else , ...

we dont walk out of a meeting room or walk in one with a hamas pin as some of the pals bodyguards do , .....

why do you think some palestinians peace "dealers" are protected by the Israelis , .....

if there is one thing that Sharon has had on his mind since lets say 1972 then its peace , .....

and we have been doing so since the start of the Sharon gov , in secret but we have been doing so , we want peace , for both people , .....

and that is not my own personal view but the view luckely of most idf officers and mfa and other gov people , even the ultra orhodox in my office want peace , ..... even the druze and the kopt !

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by Azazel

Quote:

This is why I think that Isreal doesn't care if there is a dictatorship in Palestine, as long as it is beneficial to them. IMO, you could have stopped this by building up Palestine when you got it, and help the people out of their refugee camps and build a democracy. YES, it might have costed a lot of money, but a lot more has been spent the long run.

When, in the 60s? you realize that Arafat would be in an autonomous palestine in 2 seconds.

Besides, where would we get the money?

hi ,

like we dont give the allready plenty , .....

what do they ( the PA ) do with the 14 million each month then from the eu , what with the monthly 80 millions do they do , .....

answer , they put it in bank accounts at bank halopim , in brazil , russia , belgium , swiss , egypt , saudi , etc , .....

everytime we have surrounded arafats compound we had to pay for the food we gave them , the spare cell phone batteries , do you think they have ever gave us a thank you , ......

or do you think anyone reads or looks at those pics in the press , .....

have a nice day

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Arrian

I SAID BOTH SIDES! Hamas continues to do its thing. The IDF continues to do its thing.

Meanwhile, Sharon & Abbas negotiate a settlement, and shut their traps about the killing by both sides.

-Arrian

But only one side does stop! The Palestinian terrorists refuse to stop even when Israel does. Countless times, Israel has stopped unilaterally, and yet the terrorism continued to kill innocent Israelis.

So, when you say "negotiate under fire", what would end up happening in reality, is Israel stopping its actions and negotiating while the Palestinians continue on their killing spree of Israel civilians!

[Panag]

Originally posted by The diplomat


But both sides don't stop! The Palestinian terrorists refuse to stop even when Israel does. Countless times, Israel has stopped unilaterally, and yet the terrorism continued to kill innocent Israelis.

So, when you say "negotiate under fire", what would end up happening in reality, is Israel stopping its actions and negotiating while the Palestinians continue on their killing spree of Israel civilians!

hi ,

hello , what are we doing in jordan , ......

have a nice day

[Arrian]

The Diplomat,

If you read my posts you will find that I never suggested that the IDF stop hunting terrorists. In fact, I specifically stated that it could continue.

Look, all I'm saying is that the violence is used to halt negotiations. The only way negotiations can succeed is if the negotiators ignore the violence.

-Arrian

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Arrian

This qualifies as one of those rare occasions on which I totally agree with Agathon.

As I've said before, there should be a special gold lined sticky thread for posts like this.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Arrian
From us, I'm sure.



-Arrian

It was against our interests to have a seperate Palestinian state back then.

(And anyway, all the motivation back then was to give the WB (or WB - strategic areas) back to the Jordanians. It wasn't until the late 80s that the Jordanians gave up their claim to it.

Anyway, the Palestinians probably had more democracy in the territories than anywhere in the arab world - after all, how many of [i]them[i] allow females representatives?


(that doesn't mean Israel didn't make an enormous mistake in not further concentrating on democracy in the territories than it did)

[Az]

From us, I'm sure.

Sounds like a deal.

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by Arrian
Look, all I'm saying is that the violence is used to halt negotiations. The only way negotiations can succeed is if the negotiators ignore the violence.

-Arrian

If the terrorism is halting the negotiations, then why not get rid of the terrorism before you negotiate?

If a marathon runner has a piece of glass cutting into his foot, does he continue to run anyway, or does he remove the piece of glass first before continuying the race? So, it just seems to me that the logical thing to do, since the terrorism has costs so many lives and derailed the negotiations over and over again, is to first remove the terrorism rather than continue negotiations that you know are going to be derailed by violence.

So, why not attack all out against the Palestinian terrorist groups until they surrender, then you can negotiate free of terrorism? Isn't that what the US is doing against Al Queda?

[Kramerman]

this cycle of violene will only end when israel faces destruction, and must use the full extent of its power to crush the Palestinians. Why do the terrorist Palestinians persist? they know it'll only bring retribution, and more death on both sides.

Israel wants to negotiate, Hamas and the like do not. They are the bad guys, clear and simple. People who call Israel terrorists are idiots. They at least want and actively move towards peace, unlike many Palestinian groups that only want war. I hope Israel kills all those ****ers.

I just wish the good Palestinians (the majority of them, i truely believe), who want peace, would stand up to the thuggish terrorists among them who continue this needless and irrational bloodshed.

[Az]

A very important thing: I think that continuing negotiations now is indeed extremely important. But I don't think that attacks on Hamas should stop, since Hamas obviously doesn't want to stop fighting us, and Abbas won't do it, either.

[Kramerman]

The ME is such a headache.... grrr

[Az]

Yes. That's why I am going to bed. night. Missed you guys. I'll try to visit more often.

[Arrian]

If the terrorism is halting the negotiations, then why not get rid of the terrorism before you negotiate?

Because you can't. You can fire as many missles as you want, and the terrorists won't stop. What the hell do you think Israel has been trying to do? Has it worked? No, it hasn't. They've nailed a bunch of terrorist leaders, foiled attacks, and so on and so forth, but the terrorists just keep on coming. The best way to stop them is to undercut their recruitment. A peace deal will do that. The hardcore crazies will keep fighting, of course, because they want Israel destroyed utterly, but there simply isn't much anyone can do about that. Mossad & the Palestinian Security forces will have to learn to work together to stop them.

Further, I didn't say that the violence was stopping negotiations. I said that the violence was used by one side or the other as an excuse to back out of peace talks.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian




Because you can't. You can fire as many missles as you want, and the terrorists won't stop. What the hell do you think Israel has been trying to do? Has it worked? No, it hasn't. They've nailed a bunch of terrorist leaders, foiled attacks, and so on and so forth, but the terrorists just keep on coming. The best way to stop them is to undercut their recruitment. A peace deal will do that. The hardcore crazies will keep fighting, of course, because they want Israel destroyed utterly, but there simply isn't much anyone can do about that. Mossad & the Palestinian Security forces will have to learn to work together to stop them.

Further, I didn't say that the violence was stopping negotiations. I said that the violence was used by one side or the other as an excuse to back out of peace talks.

-Arrian

actually there was considerably less terrorism after the Israelis went back into the West bank and cracked down, then in the period before - april of 2002. it turns out that killing leaders, destroying bomb factories etc does make a difference. Im not saying its a long term solution, but as a way of clearing the ground for real negotiations it may be necessary - the reflexive view that it never works is just that, reflexive.

[lord of the mark]

heres a little something from the Independent




"Twenty-three killed in Middle East '*** for tat' violence
By Ravi Nessman, AP
11 June 2003


A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up on a bus in central Jerusalem today, killing at least 16 people and wounding 70 a day after Hamas threatened bloody revenge for an Israeli attack on one of its leaders. Passengers were hurled from the bus by the force of the blast.

Less than an hour later, Israeli attack helicopters fired missiles at a car in Gaza City, killing at least seven Palestinians, including two Hamas militants and five bystanders. Witnesses said several missiles were fired as bystanders were trying to pull the passengers out of the car"


A suicide bomber deliberated murders 16 innocents whose only crime was riding the bus. Israel kills 2 hamas "militants" and accidentaly kills 5 by standers - and this is "*** for tat" killings.

No wonder the Euro public doesnt understand whats going on.

[VetLegion]

everytime we have surrounded arafats compound we had to pay for the food we gave them , the spare cell phone batteries , do you think they have ever gave us a thank you , ......

I personally thank you for all the spare cell phone batteries you have given to the Palestinians