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Old June 11, 2003, 17:24   #1
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america, the gulag
since this was considered off topic in the thread where i posted it, im posting it here.

anne applebaum op ed in WaPo

"Do you see any parallels between the security state that George Bush has created in America since 9/11 and the Gulag?" For a moment, the question struck me dumb. It had been put by a BBC radio interviewer, and we were on the air. It seemed impolitic to say, "What a ridiculous question," and I was too surprised to laugh. Finally I mumbled something about not having noticed that great a difference between daily life in George Bush's America and daily life in Bill Clinton's America, and left it at that. What I should have done was point out, tartly, that access to information is still far freer in America than it is in Britain, that immigrants are far better treated in America than in Britain, and that democracy remains a more open affair in America than in Britain. One always thinks of these things too late.

Yet in the days that followed, I did, rather surprisingly, have the opportunity to try out a few more answers. I was in London because a book I wrote about Soviet concentration camps had just been published there. For some, it seemed, the combination of that subject and my nationality offered the perfect opportunity to discuss the viciousness of contemporary American society. Several times I was asked if Guantanamo Bay should be considered a concentration camp. One reviewer, after saying a few neutral words about my book, complained that "the author has missed an opportunity to condemn human rights violations in her own country." Another interviewer asked whether people in America are often arrested for insulting the president on the Internet.

Partly, I suspect that this extraordinary new perception of America as a vile source of human rights abuse and repression comes from London-based Americans, one of whom told me she had moved to Britain to escape George Bush's abuses. Partly, and more legitimately, it comes from ill-judged decisions by the administration, such as the refusal to call the Guantanamo Bay captives "prisoners of war," which happens to be what they are.

Partly, though, it reflects something I first noticed two years ago and am still at a loss to explain fully. This is the animus that George W. Bush personally inspires among what the British, among others, call the "chattering classes," in Europe as elsewhere. Recently, a Pew Research Center poll gave statistical backing to a phenomenon that many have observed anecdotally. Much of the world -- and Europe is no exception -- has a love-hate relationship with America. They consume our mass culture but simultaneously resent the impact of that mass culture on their own. They watch our television programs but are wary of importing them. On a host of issues, ranging from beliefs about the death penalty to preferred brands of sneakers, Europeans and Americans are actually growing closer, and the much-vaunted "values gap" is growing narrower. Yet when asked about it, Europeans often focus on what drives us apart.

Somehow -- and the Pew results support this too -- Bush has come to stand for the hate part of the love-hate relationship, symbolizing the downside of mass culture and the pushy side of our foreign policy, rather than the economic freedom and political openness that many admire. Largely this is because Bush, as a fully paid-up conservative, is at odds with Europe's left-leaning political elites, most of whom hate not only him but also the things with which he is associated, rightly or wrongly, such as a freer rein for the private sector. What they hate, in other words, is his domestic policy, more than his foreign policy.

Hatred of Bush has, in turn, slanted the reporting in the European press. Huge amounts of attention were given to the reports, after the fall of Baghdad, of the looting of the Iraqi state museum, which played into negative stereotypes (anti-culture Americans!). Far less attention has been paid to subsequent discoveries of the museum's treasures, hidden in vaults, safe from looters. Much was made a year or two ago of the administration's apparent lack of interest in Middle East peace (warmongering Americans!). By contrast, there has been relatively little interest in the president's recent trip to the Middle East, which has been widely dismissed as a cynical maneuver.

At the moment, prospects for change are slim. The administration's stunningly inept diplomacy in Europe isn't doing much to improve matters, nor is the low-level arrogance that still drips out of the White House and the Pentagon. One can talk weakly of student exchanges and conferences, but those sorts of things reach limited audiences. Besides, increased communication sometimes makes for increased misunderstanding. Perhaps the best thing to do is invite your foreign friends to visit, switch on Jay Leno and reassure them, in case they don't believe it, that it is still pretty hard to be arrested -- as Stalin's victims once were -- for telling jokes about the nation's leader."
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:26   #2
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Hey, a good portion of us hate him too.
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:34   #3
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Did you get that dog from Sava ?
Too bad, and who cares ?
And Che would gripe if he was hung with a new rope, so...
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:40   #4
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Nice article, apart from some silly jingoism and too much stereotyping.
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:43   #5
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Re: Did you get that dog from Sava ?
IT's a DINGO!!!!!
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:44   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by HershOstropoler
Nice article, apart from some silly jingoism and too much stereotyping.
where in the article is there silly jingoism??
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:45   #7
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Ok, did you get that DINGO!!!!! from Sava ?

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Old June 11, 2003, 17:45   #8
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Originally posted by SlowwHand
And Che would gripe if he was hung with a new rope, so...
Wouldn't you?
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:48   #9
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:50   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark


where in the article is there silly jingoism??
"that access to information is still far freer in America than it is in Britain, that immigrants are far better treated in America than in Britain, and that democracy remains a more open affair in America than in Britain."

The first claim has some merit, the second one is dubious, the third is just absurd.

"the economic freedom and political openness that many admire."

Economic freedom, debatable. Political openness, absurd.

Why couldn't she manage without that nonsense? Almost every article from the US has this "greatest nation on earth" mantra in it.
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:54   #11
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i think they like to be calling themselves the greatest nation on earth. makes them feel good. it does sound stupid in many european countries though.

i cant imagine someone in austria saying we are the best country in the world.

in greece there might be some but you know we're greece. sarcasm is autochthonous
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:57   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
i cant imagine someone in austria saying we are the best country in the world.
It goes a bit different:

"Hey, we are among the 10 richest countries on earth!"

"So? Then why is it I'm not making more money?"
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:58   #13
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i cant imagine someone in austria saying we are the best country in the world.



Now that's funny.
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Old June 11, 2003, 17:59   #14
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It is, in an odd way...
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Old June 11, 2003, 18:01   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
i cant imagine someone in austria saying we are the best country in the world.

in greece there might be some but you know we're greece.
SOME!?!? My god, American Greeks are some of the most obnoxiously nationalistic people I've ever met. Greek this, Greek that, blah blah blah. Shut up and let me date your daughter.
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Old June 11, 2003, 18:01   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
i think they like to be calling themselves the greatest nation on earth. makes them feel good. it does sound stupid in many european countries though.

i cant imagine someone in austria saying we are the best country in the world.
True. I can't imagine someone in Germany saying 'we are the best country in the world' - except of some neo-nazis..
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Old June 11, 2003, 18:08   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
i think they like to be calling themselves the greatest nation on earth. makes them feel good. it does sound stupid in many european countries though.
Most people who say this in the US have never even been to another country.
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:06   #18
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Most people who say this in the US have never even been to another country.
Yet, plenty have... so your point?
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:11   #19
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Countries that countinually tell themselves (and anyone within earshot) that they are the best generally sound as though they are trying to convince themselves.
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:16   #20
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Maybe if I keep saying it enough times people will start to believe me? Maybe not...
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:23   #21
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Most people who say this in the US have never even been to another country.
Yet, plenty have... so your point?
That most people have no basis for comparison, so they are ignorant and should be ignored.

Anyway, the US isn't the greatest country on Earth. Belgium has better beer, france better wine, and Peru better food. So the most you can say is the US is the greatest when beer, food, and wine are discounted.
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:24   #22
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Originally posted by chegitz guevara


SOME!?!? My god, American Greeks are some of the most obnoxiously nationalistic people I've ever met. Greek this, Greek that, blah blah blah. Shut up and let me date your daughter.

I'd let you date my daughter che 'cause you're a good guy and a communist

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Old June 11, 2003, 19:46   #23
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Anyway, the US isn't the greatest country on Earth. Belgium has better beer, france better wine, and Peru better food. So the most you can say is the US is the greatest when beer, food, and wine are discounted.
I seriously will doubt that Peru has better food . And Belgium and France, while lauded for their cuisine, really don't have good eats either .
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:51   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Quote:
Anyway, the US isn't the greatest country on Earth. Belgium has better beer, france better wine, and Peru better food. So the most you can say is the US is the greatest when beer, food, and wine are discounted.
Canada has women with looser morals. After all it's cold up here.
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Old June 11, 2003, 19:56   #25
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I seriously will doubt that Peru has better food . And Belgium and France, while lauded for their cuisine, really don't have good eats either .
Ever been to Peru? If you can find a good Peruvian restaurant I highly recommend it (but not if you're a vegetarian).

As for Belgium and France, their cuisine was good - but I'm talking booze, baby! The US has nothing that compares.
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Old June 11, 2003, 20:00   #26
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There is no such thing as 'greatest country on earth'. Countries are too big for such claims (unless you live in a microstate). There are only greatest locations. I think NYC is the greatest place on earth, and NYC has far more in common with London than it does Lubbock.
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Old June 11, 2003, 20:56   #27
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Ever been to Peru? If you can find a good Peruvian restaurant I highly recommend it (but not if you're a vegetarian).
I highly doubt that it can beat Southern-style BBQ... the best food on Earth... finger licking good .

And if I find one in the US... it'll probably be Americanized, making it a part of American food as Chinese takeout is .
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Old June 11, 2003, 21:06   #28
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Originally posted by The Templar
Anyway, the US isn't the greatest country on Earth. Belgium has better beer, france better wine, and Peru better food. So the most you can say is the US is the greatest when beer, food, and wine are discounted.
Belgian beer is good but there is certainly more (and better) brew made in America if the awards US brewers have racked up at brewfests is any indication. More brews, of more types then any where else and yes very high quality. You just have to be smart enough to try a microbrew instead of the industrial grade stuff.

As for wine and food. Do you read any of the food magazines? Nearly all of them say New York City has the best restaurants on Earth (they edged out Paris back in the mid 1990s) and the average Californian wine is certainly better then the average Franch wine and it costs less to boot. The high end is still pretty even though and French wineries can certainly charge more.
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Old June 11, 2003, 21:28   #29
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Ever been to Peru? If you can find a good Peruvian restaurant I highly recommend it (but not if you're a vegetarian).
There's one just up the road from my house. My favourite restaurant.
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Old June 12, 2003, 06:50   #30
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You're not allowed to say "Sweden is the best country in the world" in Sweden. Very Unswedish. We just know, with smug self-satisfaction.
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