america, the gulag - Page 2

Q Classic · June 12, 2003, 08:00

i suppose one does have to warm those frigid canadian women...

lord of the mark · June 12, 2003, 09:53

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler

"that access to information is still far freer in America than it is in Britain, that immigrants are far better treated in America than in Britain, and that democracy remains a more open affair in America than in Britain."

The first claim has some merit, the second one is dubious, the third is just absurd.

LOTM- im not sure the 3rd claim is absurd. Hard to tell since its not clear exactly what she was referring to. Certainly it has been widely held that the American primary system makes political parties more responsive to popular sentiment on many issues then the Brit system - debatable im sure, but not absurd.

AS for the immigrants im no expert on Brit immigration treatment - are you? again its not clear specifically what shes talking about - i suppose publicized asylum cases - i dont know.

"the economic freedom and political openness that many admire."

Economic freedom, debatable. Political openness, absurd.

LOTM - ditto above - I think.

Why couldn't she manage without that nonsense? Almost every article from the US has this "greatest nation on earth" mantra in it.

Well she didnt say the US is the greatest nation on earth - and she said that that was how she should have responded to the BBC interviewer's absurd question - it was what we call in English a "comeback".

The general tone was not at all jingoistic. She made some points that were mild in context, and were all arguable, i think. She did not make a full argument - or even clarify what she meant - i dont think it makes her jingoistic.

The Templar · June 12, 2003, 11:43

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
There is no such thing as 'greatest country on earth'. Countries are too big for such claims (unless you live in a microstate). There are only greatest locations. I think NYC is the greatest place on earth, and NYC has far more in common with London than it does Lubbock.

I find it amusing when Texans look at a place like Lubbock and say that the US is the greatest place on Earth! I can see thinking that if one is in New York or San Francisco. But then again, it usually crackers out in places like Lubbock talking about how great the US is.

Siddi, try an antecucho (I make a mean one myslef), then get back to me on Peruvian food.

MRT144 · June 12, 2003, 11:46

templar, people from shithole cities are just compensating. theyve seen the sun but they havent seen it shine.

Cruddy · June 12, 2003, 12:03

Having read a fair bit of Solzhenitsyn, I'm confident that current US security measures are in no way comparable to the Gulag system of the Soviet Union (I was fortunate enough to grow up with a close neighbour who was unfortunate enough to be incarcerated in one for 5 years).

Current US policy can certainly be criticized from many points of view, but this claim is just sensationalist crap.

As for this "greatest nation on Earth" thing - well, one country has to be premier. So what? It's what you use the power for that people get worried about.

Personally it's not my no.1 choice for emigration - reckon I'll try for New Zealand or Australia instead.

It's just a dream I have - my chances are very slim.

Urban Ranger · June 13, 2003, 00:50

AFAIK, New Zealand will take almost everybody. But it's such a boring place that, IIRC, it has the highest suicide rate.

Ted Striker · June 13, 2003, 00:54

USA!!!

Osterrlich ist bunt.

Urban Ranger · June 13, 2003, 00:56

Finished with your Oracle DBA work today?

Sikander · June 13, 2003, 02:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
AFAIK, New Zealand will take almost everybody. But it's such a boring place that, IIRC, it has the highest suicide rate.

I hear that the suicide rate has dropped a bit since Agathon left.

Vince278 · June 14, 2003, 02:08

I've been to many other countries around the world and I honestly believe the US is the best country in the world. Just look at how much jealousy it attracts (and I fully expect some of the replies to that will only prove my point).

HershOstropoler · June 14, 2003, 05:39

You're flattering yourself if you think that anti-american sentiment or just anti-Bush sentiment has much to do with jealousy.

You could also try to tell me what exactly I would be jealous of. Good luck.

Bereta_Eder · June 14, 2003, 05:39

And that includes penis size.

Vince278 · June 14, 2003, 06:29

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
You're flattering yourself if you think that anti-american sentiment or just anti-Bush sentiment has much to do with jealousy.

You could also try to tell me what exactly I would be jealous of. Good luck.

How about the amount of influence the US has (for better or worse)? I'm sure most countries would love to be able to influence events on the world stage. Russia tries. China tries sometimes. Personally, I believe the US is isolationist at heart (we took years to get involved in WW1 and 2) and we would be glad to step aside if another benevolent nation would try to solve all of today's problems.
"With great power comes great responsibility" - Stan Lee

Bush is not America, he is only the current president. If we don't like him we vote him out. Its nothing worth getting jealous over.

Vince278 · June 14, 2003, 06:38

Quote:

Originally posted by paiktis22
And that includes penis size.

There may be an element of truth to that.

It would be impossible to get an objective analysis of that. (Pleeeease, nobody start a poll on penis size

)

This reminds me of a story I heard about one of our crazy cold war schemes to affect Soviet morale. Drop a bunch of footlong condoms out of a plane over major cities labeled "Made in the USA, size Medium"

HershOstropoler · June 14, 2003, 06:40

"How about the amount of influence the US has (for better or worse)?"

Which is, as far as western europe is concerned, mostly an issue for people who spent to much time in the french écoles.

I'd rather envy the influence say Israel has on the US, rather than the other way round.

"Bush is not America, he is only the current president."

Bush is part of a larger problem.

Q Classic · June 14, 2003, 07:20

actually, i've been talking with people here in korea during my trip.

a lot of this apparent anti-american sentiment is directed less at america and more at bush... which explains why it didn't bubble over until bush came to power.

there was some demonstration in memory of those two girls, but opinion on that seemed to be mixed at large. seems as if only the people who cared went to that demonstration, while everyone else was ready to move on...

Urban Ranger · June 14, 2003, 07:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince278
I've been to many other countries around the world and I honestly believe the US is the best country in the world.

Nonsense. Even Canada is better.

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 03:02

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"How about the amount of influence the US has (for better or worse)?"

Which is, as far as western europe is concerned, mostly an issue for people who spent to much time in the french écoles.

I don't understand ecoles.

As for Europe, I believe if the EU could work together more and had the will to take on difficult external issues they would be an awesome force to behold.

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
I'd rather envy the influence say Israel has on the US, rather than the other way round.

I have friends living over there so I'm sure the Israelis would agree that we each have little influence over the other. If anything, we are becoming a thorn in their side. I don't see America having a pro-Israeli bias (if anything, we have a pro-liberty bias). We fought against "fellow" Christians to help Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo (no so called oil interests there!). We are now trying to help the Palestinians despite opposition from both Arabs and Israelis.

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"Bush is not America, he is only the current president."

Bush is part of a larger problem.

And what is the larger problem?

I believe America is trying to make our world a safer place for us all. Bush just acts a little more decisively in that regard. History will judge how well he does. (Now if we could only keep him away from pretzels and Segways

)

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 03:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Q Cubed
actually, i've been talking with people here in korea during my trip.

I lived in South Korea for a year in 1993. My day in Panmunjon was an eye opener.

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 03:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Nonsense. Even Canada is better.

Okay I'll bite. How so?

HershOstropoler · June 15, 2003, 05:14

"I don't understand ecoles."

The elite universities that shape much of France's political elite.

"I have friends living over there so I'm sure the Israelis would agree that we each have little influence over the other."

You just pay a couple billion $ to Israel each year in exchange for a little influence.

"I don't see America having a pro-Israeli bias"

Srange. Well, as your gov has a pro-Sharon bias, you could say this amounts to an anti-Israel bias...

"I believe America is trying to make our world a safer place for us all. Bush just acts a little more decisively in that regard. History will judge how well he does."

That is part of the larger problem. Self-delusion, chauvinism, militarism, aggressive foreign policy, hypocrisy...

I also find it hard to believe many Americans trust a guy with their security who is endangered by Pretzels.

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 05:40

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"I don't understand ecoles."

The elite universities that shape much of France's political elite.

Thank-you. I've just learned a new word (and the reason why the French political elite is so twisted).

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"I have friends living over there so I'm sure the Israelis would agree that we each have little influence over the other."

You just pay a couple billion $ to Israel each year in exchange for a little influence.

If that were true I'd say we are definitely not getting our money's worth.

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"I don't see America having a pro-Israeli bias"

Srange. Well, as your gov has a pro-Sharon bias, you could say this amounts to an anti-Israel bias...

So then Sharon is anti-Israel?

Quote:

Originally posted by HershOstropoler
"I believe America is trying to make our world a safer place for us all. Bush just acts a little more decisively in that regard. History will judge how well he does."

That is part of the larger problem. Self-delusion, chauvinism, militarism, aggressive foreign policy, hypocrisy...

I also find it hard to believe many Americans trust a guy with their security who is endangered by Pretzels.

Trust him with our security? Maybe. Trust him with our pretzels? Never.

The irony there is I live in the town where the first pretzels in America were made (the original factory is still open). Bush passed through on a visit last year.

Serb · June 15, 2003, 05:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince278
The irony there is I live in the town where the first pretzels in America were made (the original factory is still open). Bush passed through on a visit last year.

...and survived?

...nah, you must be joking.

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 06:02

Organic pretzels? Yuk!

How's the weather there in Siberia?

HershOstropoler · June 15, 2003, 06:19

"If that were true I'd say we are definitely not getting our money's worth."

"Were"? YOu mean you don't give money to Israel, or you have a lot of influence?

"So then Sharon is anti-Israel?"

He and his ilk don't want a two state solution. So you'll end up either with a fascist apartheid state of Israel, or the destrution of Israel, although both scenarios are a good deal into the future.

"Trust him with our pretzels? Never."

Sounds reasonable.

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 07:04

We don't have the influence one would think huge sums would buy.

I agree if there isn't peace then the future could look grim. Thats why Bush (and previous presidents) are trying so hard. Wish the other major nations would try as hard.
The two sides see a two state solution differently. Israel envisions Israel and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians want their own state and Israel.

I think we'll start him on potato chips and work up to pretzel sticks and nuggets.

Serb · June 15, 2003, 07:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince278
Organic pretzels? Yuk!

How's the weather there in Siberia?

It's ok, +26C, not very warm yet.

Proteus_MST · June 15, 2003, 08:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince278
We don't have the influence one would think huge sums would buy.

I agree if there isn't peace then the future could look grim. Thats why Bush (and previous presidents) are trying so hard. Wish the other major nations would try as hard.

The big question is, if it´s the right thing they´re doing.
If their actions result in Terrorist Organizations getting more members (because Bushs actions are seen as a crusade against the islamic world) the future will look much more grim.
The same is the case if the invasion of Iraq will finally lead to the shiites declaring an Islamistic state of Iraq (not at once, but within a few years). The Mullahs seem to have a great influence within the Shiite population.
If Bushs action convince many dictatorships within the world, that the only thing which can save them from an attack of the USA ist getting Nuclear Weapons, it also won´t make the world a safer place.

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince278
The two sides see a two state solution differently. Israel envisions Israel and a Palestinian state. The Palestinians want their own state and Israel.

It all depends on who you are asking I think.
If you ask a zionist in Israel they would rather envision an Erez Israel which encompasses the Westbank and much more

(and they are busy creating it, by building illegal settlements and encouraging people to live in the Westbank).

Quote:

Originally posted by Vince278
I think we'll start him on potato chips and work up to pretzel sticks and nuggets.

How many time do you think you´ll need to get him safely through the Potato Chips-Phase?

Lonestar · June 15, 2003, 09:39

Quote:

Originally posted by The Templar

france better wine:

Lies. Napa Valley has the finest on Earth.

Vince278 · June 15, 2003, 22:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
How many time do you think you´ll need to get him safely through the Potato Chips-Phase?

I remember hearing he likes salsa (hotter the better). That should make it easier to get those corn chips down.

That reminds me of when I was living in Korea. I ordered out some Korean food and they asked me how hot I wanted it. I said "Hot. Very hot. Hot as you can get it and add some more. Try to hurt me, I dare you!" The lesson I learned there? Never dare a Korean to hurt you.