Overseas Conquests in the Middle Ages

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

During the Industrial, and in paricular, modern ages, it becomes quite feasible to expand overseas, conquering already developed empires. During the ancient or early medival eras, it is easy to colonize overseas, building cities in whatever location is availible to use as bases for conquests of already-established civs.

But what do you do if you've no place left to expand at the end of the Middle Ages? I refer to the time post-astronomy but pre-magnetism, perhaps right before MT.

Attached I have a saved game of India. Nearby is Babylon, which I covet much, not only for their incense, but also as a "super base" from which to invade Arabia. I want to take Babylon before Arabia is too well developed for cavalry to be of much use. I am 4 turns from MT and another 4 from Magnetism. Still, I have no ships whatsoever, and only about 15 War Elephants, waiting to be upgraded.

How should I handle this situation? Should I build cavs galore, and then some galleons, and invade? Or will this lead to disaster?

Please, if you can, take a look at this saved game and tell me what you think the best option is. And NO, giving peace a chance is NOT an option, thank you.

[Arrian]

And NO, giving peace a chance is NOT an option, thank you.

The force is strong with this one.

I can't check it out now, and I'm busy tonight, but I think I can give some general advice w/o seeing the game.

1) Build WEs/Cavalry. 25-30 is probably a good number to have for an invasion, unless the Babs are especially strong.
2) I know from the other thread that you have lots of muskets. Excellent, you can cover your invasion force. I'd say 1 musket for every 4 Cavalry.

So that's approximately 36 total units. Which means 9 galleons if you want to get them all there at once (I like to do that - it totally overwhelms the AI).

If you have money to spare (I bet you do, you commercial civ you), just rush the boats out of a coastal city/cities near to the intended victim.

I figure you're looking at a ~12 turn prep period (you need to build 10-15 more WE/Cav, rack up 9 ships, and move all your troops to load the ships). You could speed it up some by launching the attack with only some of the troops, and ferrying the rest over as the attack proceeds, of course.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, 9 ships would probably be fine... the Babs have about 10-12 cities. Some are totally unimpressive, but Babylon itself is size 12 already (!) and as I recall from previous the Babylonians are capable of putting on quite a show, defense wise (unlike, say, the Mongols).

I'll probably build the nine ships... with 3 cavs and 1 musket in each, that's only 27 cavs... but, say, 6 cavs per city with a 2 mukset defense? That gets me 4 cities, at which point I can begin to bring the reinforcements...

...actually, the Babs' southernmost city will make a great launching pad... I just need to take that and then shuffle a grotesque amount of cavs over, and take Babylon... the rest of the empire ought not be too hard.

Anyhow, though, if anyone can take a look at the game and tell me what they think of my position/strategy, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[Arrian]

What are their cities defended by? Pikemen or musketmen?

Also, aside from Babylon itself, are many of those cities larger than size 6? That's all that matters. If it's a 6 with pikemen in it, you're facing a defense of 3.75 with an attack of 6.

If it's a 7+ with muskets, now you're dealing with a defense of 7 against your attack of 6. Which means more casualties.

-Arrian

[lmtoops]

Use a battle caculator (there are several) to estimate the number of WE you will need. I would be conservative and assume there are 3 defenders (regular rank).

If cities are right at 7 (or 8), than bombarment units (esp. if you have cannons are nice. For the initial invasion, it would be nice to target a size 6 or less city. Than bring in cannons/catapults with reinforcements.

I'm looking at the same situation in my SP game. I'm about to launch an attack on the Celtics. I hope my attack goes well.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I'm almost certain there's no muskets yet. There will be soon, most likely. And probably plenty of veteran pikes already.

I can't recall offhand and I don't have Civ at work, but I think that, aside from Babylon itself, most of their cities are size 4-8. They do have the Pyramids.

The main advantage (for me) is that Babylon itself is small. The Arabs have about 30 cities I believe; they're about the same size as me. Backwards, but with multiple iron, horse and saltpeter sources; all they need are Ansars to be a major hassle.

Still, they're on "my list".

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by lmtoops
I'm looking at the same situation in my SP game. I'm about to launch an attack on the Celtics. I hope my attack goes well.

I wish you the best of luck. You should upload it here so that this thread can expand. I promise to look at it, not that my advice is worth much.

[Dominae]

Yahweh, I know you only asked for some advice on inter-continental invasions, but after looking at your save I feel compelled to throw in everything else that came to my mind too. Ready?

Disclaimer: I'm pretty critical when it comes to reviewing other peoples' games. Just ask BRC!

1. Your core (non-border, non-coastal) cities are way too heavily defended. These cities will never see "action", but are nontheless all garrisoned with 3 units. I assume this is because you want to use the full complement of Military Police since you're in a Monarchy. This is wasteful. Military Police should only be used if you're fearing disorder. But this is not a problem for you since you do not have one unhappy Citizen in your entire empire. Move those units towards the front where they'll do some good.

2. Your cities are too happy. I know that sounds dumb. Unless your goal is to make all your cities celebrate WLTKD (I see no point at this stage of the game), there is simply no need to have all your Citizens Content and/or Happy. All you need is to ensure that your Happy Citizens outnumber your Unhappy ones. Imagine all the damage you could be doing if you decided to build military units instead of all those Cathedrals. You're warmongering spirit is admirable, but your execution still needs some work (i.e. your Builder side is still too much in control).

3. Your city placement is, ah, erratic. You're using very wide spacing around your capital. Too wide, in fact; there are many tiles (mostly Forest) around your core that will never be used unless you backfill. That's a huge waste, since Corruption is at its lowest around your Palace (under Monarchy/Republic). Surprisingly, in other locations you city-spacing is rather dense (sometimes going as low as 2-spacing. But these areas are all far from your core! What you want is a high concentration of cities around your cores (since they suffer less Corruption there), and a lower concentration in the outlying areas. In this game, you've got this pattern reversed.

4. You've got too much Irrigation. Delhi is size 12 and has a surplus of 9 Food! Most other cities are in the same situation. You might be looking toward Sanitation to get all those babies into pop heaven, but that's still a while away. By building more Mines you get Shields which you can actually use (say, to build even more military units, you bloody Warmonger you!). The Food surplus you have is all going to waste in your size 12 cities, and that's not making very good use of your land.

5. There is simply no point in being in Monarchy. I know you want to be a Warmonger, but even Warmongers can dip into Republic. This is especially true since you're a Religious civ, and can switch back and forth almost without cost. Being a Republic will throw your empire into the stratosphere economically speaking, which will give you the tools to warmonger to you heart's content for the rest of the game. With Republic, you could have saved up even more cash than you have now, and upgraded a zillion Cavalry. Who cares if the enemy has Musketmen or even Riflemen when you outnumber them 5 to 1? With those kinds of numbers, you should be able to conquer every civ before War Weariness brings you down.

6. You're looking at the wrong target if your eye is on Babylon. There's a perfectly good Chinese empire right next door just waiting to be conquered. Why go overseas when you can just ride your forces across land into another civ's territory? Your quest for another Luxury (Incense) is fine, but as I said before, you're empire is happy enough as it is. The Chinese are five or more techs behind you technologically. Just get Military Tradition, upgrade every Horse-type unit you have, and overrun them with Cavalry. The Babylonians and Ottomans will be easy enough no matter their technological level. But you do not want China to get to Military Tradition because they've got enough land mass to become a thorn in your side.

6. You've built too many defenders. A quick look at the F3 screen shows: 90(!) Pikemen and 10 Musketmen, but only ~30 offensive units (War Elephants, Medieval Infantry, etc). I thought you were the Warmonger here! Your Pikemen will simply not conquer your enemies for you. Imagine if you had only 30 Pikemen but 60 Horsemen: with Leonardo's Workshop, you could upgrade almost all of those Horsemen to Cavalry immediately! Would the game be "over" then? You betcha.

7. Finally, regardless of all my criticisms, you should pat yourself on the back that you're dominating this game so convincingly. Maybe it's time you move up from Regent to get more of a challenge?


Anyway, that's my (harsh) two cents. Feel free to do with it what you will.


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Holy crud! Looks I just got schooled! Oh well, I deserve it. To respond, I would say that MUCH of my planning is dictating by sloth rather than cogent thought. Yes, I am aware that Dehli is running a ridiculous food excess, and yes, I am aware that I'm in no threat of disorder. I just want everything to be in place for the Industrial Era so I can cut back on the micromanagement come that time. When I do move up difficulty levels, I know that I will not have the luxury of having all these military police units.

As for my city placement, though, which forest tiles am I missing? I can't see any that aren't being used (or won't be used once I have hospitals). Some of those cities were placed there to flip outlying enemy cities... hence the silly density near the formerly Chinese city in the South, for example...

As for China... really, get involved in the war now? I can see your point, but I was experimenting with "border deterrence," and I really wanted that incense overseas.

Maybe I should do both at once? I am playing regent...

...ha ha, well, if I seem defensive, forgive me... I do think you're right on in your commentary (except for the city placement, which I don't understand). As for moving up difficulty levels, I will do it soon... I've only got a few more civs to play out on Regent level.

So, while rebutting your words publicly, I am taking notes.

[Arrian]

90(!) Pikemen and 10 Musketmen

Wow. That is a lot.

I echo Dominae's warning about China - take 'em down now. In fact, wipe your continent clean before you start messing around on others.

You've got too much Irrigation. Delhi is size 12 and has a surplus of 9 Food! Most other cities are in the same situation.

Once your cities hit size 12, mine until you have zero surplus food (or close to it). Think about how much production power you're wasting until hospitals. You can always go back and change your terrain improvements - this is why it's good to have lots of workers. Plus, getting your cities to grow in the industrial age is a snap, because you will have RRs, and RR + Irrigation = population boom.

I understand your desire to cut back on MM later, but if you plan on moving up in difficulty, you will find that you will have to be a better MMer. That's just the truth: at the higher levels (moreso Emperor/Deity than Monarch), every gold piece, every shield, every food is precious.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Below is a screenshot of one of your cores. The tiles with red dots on them are unreachable by any city.

Another thing: the Game tiles are much better after being chopped. Not only do you get more food early on, but Railroads does nothing for Forest tiles.

I can understand about being "lazy" concerning micromanagement; you can bet that if I were playing a Huge map game I would let things go too! But putting Mines on Grassland is pretty fundamental, and therefore something you should learn to do automatically (only under rare circumstances should you have Irrigation there). Remember that the cities around your cores are the best ones you'll have, so putting that extra little effort to micromanage just those is worth it. You can "let yourself go" on the outer cities, and those you conquer overseas.

Hope this helps.


Dominae

[Dominae]

That image:

[Arrian]

Wow, that's wider spacing that I use.

Though I still space my cities wider than Dominae does, I typically have nearly every tile fall within the full radius of a city. This still results in tiles lying unused until hospitals, but even with hospitals you empire is losing the use of some really nice tiles (many of them on rivers!). Edit: and Dominae even missed a tile

I'd have 2-3 more cities in that screenshot (with some others moved accordingly), and I'd bet Dominae would have more like 4-5 extras.

-Arrian

[UnOrthOdOx]

Holy Irrigation!!!

[Dominae]

Arrian beat me to it, but I forgot to mention that every tile but one that I put a red dot is River-adjacent. That's a big waste of the gift the map generator gave to you. Rivers are simply too good to pass up.

Now...let's all lay off Yahweh for a while!


Dominae

[Arrian]

Yahweh,

I went and dug through the AU207 AARs to find something: my F3 screen stats during some heavy fighting. Reason? Because of the strategy forum warmonger types, I probably build the most defensive units (Nathan, among others, was amazed at how many I had).

Here they are:

78 muskets
5 knights
46 cavalry

So roughly 80 defenders and 50 attackers. That was partially due to the casualties I'd taken, so the normal ratio is a little closer. It was also partially due to having a huge empire with a lot of coastal cities.

I start out in the ancient era with more attackers than defenders. A typical ancient age F3 shot for me (once I'd gotten my army together) would probably show 15 spears, 10 swords and 20 horsemen, with some other assorted flotsam & jetsam. 2 : 1 attackers to defenders.

Later in the game, however, I like to garrison all my coastal cities with 1 defender each, border towns with several, and "colonial possessions" with a fistful. I typically do have more defenders than attackers by the mid-medieval era. This increases as the industrial age gets underway, since Cavalry's lifespan is almost done by then (muskets, however, upgrade to Infantry, which remains highly useful and in turn is upgradeable).

So, in the mid-industrial era, I may come close to 2 : 1 ratio of defenders to attackers. But then once Tanks roll around (heh), it balances out again (I have a tendancy of building 100 tanks. It's just a nice, big, round number).

Anyway, most people think I go overboard with defenders, and I typically don't get to a 2 : 1 ratio. You're past 3 : 1. That's a lot.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Crosspost with Dominae...

I hope Yahweh doesn't think we're laying into him here. This is well-intentioned constructive criticism, and I hope it doesn't come across as harsh.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, thank you for the advice guys. My pride is a little hurt, but it's for the best.

So you seriously mine every grassland tile until Hospitals?

As for the defensive units... yes, I simply haven't put in enough time to figure out my building queues for temples, marketplaces, etc., to figure out what the MINIMUM is I have to have to place to keep a productive city happy. Since I know I'm on a lower playing level, I just keep trying to make as many people as possible, as happy as possible, without thinking about efficiency. Next game I'll be a bit more anal retentive.

But, back to the topic on-hand: how to invade overseas?

I see little benefit to invading China. Sure, they're crowding my continent but while I attack them that gives the Arabs, who I really covet, more time to build up. Shouldn't I do overseas first and China later?

[Arrian]

So you seriously mine every grassland tile until Hospitals?

Not EVERY grassland tile. If a city has lots of mountains and/or hills, I may irrigate some tiles so that I can use the high-production hills & mountains.

I will irrigate juicy food tiles (cows, wheat, game) early on to get the cities to grow, but will often go back and mine over that irrigation once the city is up at size 12. Even when I'm growing my cities, I typically do not go over +5 food/turn. More than that is generally wasted anyway. Most of my cities (where possible) will be between +3 and +5 food/turn until they hit size 12.

Some cities will have food surplusses even with all tiles mined. I have a city like that in my current Indian game. It has 2 wines on grass & a wheat or something, with no hills or mountains, so it's at +6 with all mines.

The key isn't "always mine this" or "always irrigate this." The key is keep your cities growing until they cannot grow anymore and then maximize production. It doesn't take much work to change over to more irrigation once you have hospitals. Oh - and use granaries (you need much less food surplus to grow at a reasonable rate).

As to the China, Babs or Arabs question, I'll leave that to people who have seen the map.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Yahweh,

Conquering Babylon to get at Arabia is not such a bad idea, come to think of it. China will always be there close to you, ready for extermination. On the other hand, I doubt Arabia will destroy both England and Babylon before you get around to grabbing that continent, so you do have some leeway.

It's really up to you. If you were to focus on nothing but military from now on, you could probably take them all on at once. Now that's warmongering!


Dominae

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I do irrigate, and later mine, the cows, so at least I'm getting THAT right.

Actually, as my landmass is small (by my standards) and I made sure to build a LOT of workers early on this game (which worked out nicely for me), I've got about 15 or so idle workers that I can set about mining grassland. I think I'll do that next time I play, and see if I can wage a two-front war! (against China and Babylon)

Maybe that will appease you Apolyton Gods.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Dominae
It's really up to you. If you were to focus on nothing but military from now on, you could probably take them all on at once. Now that's warmongering!

I'm gonna give it a shot. I'll try to keep Arabia neutral, while bribing the Ottomans (not England, same color) to turn against Babylon, and bribing Japan to take down China.

I'll just war war war until the cows come home. I'll mine every shield in the game, even the flood plains. I'll find a way to mine the ocean shields. And then I'll build six hundred and sixty six cavalry and launch a terrible unholy war. Hallelujah!

[the above was humor, laced with some reality]

[lmtoops]

When I get home, I will post my game. I look forward to all the feedback; good and bad.

[Arrian]

I just found out that my softball game is rained out, so I may be able to log on from home and check out saves & perhaps post my Indian game for you all to look at (by the way, I'm sure Dominae could find things I've done wrong - especially the city spacing).

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Good! The more saves, the merrier. Unfortunately, I may not be able to play any Civ for a few days, but I am serious about shielding it up and waging a two front war against China/Japan and "The North". I figure I'll stay in Monarchy and just wage an endless war, the point being a.) to generate GLs, b.) to use a variety of troops, not just one big cavalry sweep (efficient but boring), and, oh yeah, c.) to conquer my hemisphere.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Arrian
(by the way, I'm sure Dominae could find things I've done wrong - especially the city spacing).

/me just calls them as he sees them, (hopefully) unpretentiously

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

So you seriously mine every grassland tile until Hospitals?

I have been know to be lazy in an easy win, but to answer that question.
Yes mine all grassland, not until hospitols, but until you are no longer growing due to lack of food. Lack of food not lack of aqua or hospitol.
I say it that way as I have hit spots were I was stopped at 9 for lack of food.
Now you do not have to list all of the considerations, such as a hill, shields or any terrain. Just can I grow or not.
Yahweh, if you are having trouble with spacing and hate to see over lapped tiles, try a size 19 pattern. This works well at Monarch and below for most games and uses all, but two tiles in each city.

[dexters]

vmxa1 , would you consider for example sacrificing perfect spacing to get a city next to a river and or to get say 3 bonus resources in its radius?

[vmxa1]

Of course. The spacing starts out as a perfect plan, but will fall apart as events occur. The timing of the collapse is usually sooner on smaller maps and later on huge ones.
I think the space pattern is more of a rule of thumb, unless you are talking about very tight ICS. In that case terrain will almost never get in the way.
I mean, if I plan on size 19, but bam there is water or a mountain in the tile I needed to use. Oh well I need to adjust my plan.

[lmtoops]

Ok here is the save from my game.

I am playing the Americans (random choice) at Emporer level.

I am a bit behind in technology. I gambled on getting the GrL, but lost. In retrospect, I could have done a better job of maximizing my shield production. I missed the GrL by 6 turns, so who knows I might not have gotten it anyway. I have no GrW; most of the wonders were discovered by the time I got the tech.

I've was buying my way back into the the tech race. Then I saw a window of opportunity. The Celts had several cities on my continent and on nearby islands. Although they had riflemen and calvary, these outling cities were defended by spearmen (supid AI). So I got an alliance with India and went to war. I've take control of my continent and got a GL (Future Palace) in the process. Also went to war with Russia (due to alliance). After the alliance was over and India had made peace, I made peace with Russing (1 city left). Hopefully I can milk them for more techs and then take them out.

I was hoping to have some success on their continent, but no much chance. I scoped out their nearest city and it has riflemen. My medival infantry are getting pretty useless. So I think it's time to make peace (for 20 turns or so turns).

My plan is to get the rest of my near useless forces. Land on their continent and destory a little. Maybe get a GL. The main purpose is to get a sweeter peace deal. As it is, they are so strong I won't get much. The second part of the plan is to get ready for a calvary war.

Oh well, I've talked enough. Now it's your turn.