Vox Public Announcement - Peace in Our Times?

Beta · June 12, 2003, 23:13

Greetings, world neighbours. Vox has been left with little choice but to go public with our on-going attempts to reach some form of reconciliation with Gathering Storm.

Here is what we proposed to GS:

- they get all of South Estonia, below Elipolis
- we gift Dissidentville to them
- we do a public mea culpa - we would readily admit to our aggression and duplicity in starting this war.
- we post a public non-agression pact with GS into the next era.
- we will provide engineering in approx 15 turns.
-we provide our free tech going into the next era.
-we will not attack Inchon
-we are allowed to safely evacuate all our troops from South Estonia
- this to include Harry and 4 other immortals trapped on the mountains in the SE. As a show of good will - they will move down to tha plains where they will be easy targets.
-and discuss the movement of Inchon - maybe two tiles south. They will still get the prime enhanced grassland tiles - but our cultural borders will not be overlapping.
-we also agreed to forfeit any access to iron, as a commitment to future non-aggression

This was rejected by GS. However - they still put a peace deal back up on the screen, and we sent back the deal unaccepted, with Dissidentville added to continue the discussion. We also ceased any attacks on GS units.

That was the same turn they eliminated our Immortals in the south - who basically left themselves undefended as a sign of good faith. And we informed them we were doing this as well. (Eliminated is probably not the right word - execute might be better.)

They have now landed troops in North Estonia.

It would appear that we are past the point of any reasoning or discussion. They are willing to give us some limited time to get off of North Estonia, but they do not want us to stay. They want the entire continent. That is clear.

So despite our public admission of blame in this affair, and having suffered a much greater loss in the war, and now being willing to give public and tangible assurances regarding their security, Gathering Storm still wants the small patch of land we call home.

We the people of Vox, and the much Humbled One, wanted you to know.

.... Beta.

Shiber · June 13, 2003, 02:34

I initially posted my personal reply in here, but then I noticed that some members of my team have suggested that we hold our response to Beta's post until we have formed a concensus on this issue.
While I think that my own post was appropriate, I have removed it temporarily out of respect to my teammates.
I can only say that personally, it saddens me that Beta has returned to his past ways of lies and deception, and has chosen to break our trust again, this time twice (by posting blatant lies publicly and by exposing details of recent private negotiations between Vox and GS without our consent), and during such critical times when our teams struggle to find a peace formula that everyone can agree on.

vondrack · June 13, 2003, 06:47

Well, it would certainly help clarify things and stances, if GS posted their official response here soon. We all very well know how proficient the Voxian Minister of Information & Propaganda is...

This public announcement being possibly another brilliant example of his skills - honestly, after reading it, I can't help but feel... oh, well... I better wait for that GS official communiqué, so that I do not have to withdraw any support I might be showing based on... ummm... possibly skewed?... information from Beta(Hound).

But I admit I would personally like to see this war over. And I'm quite sure my fellow Legos feel the same. Wars do very little good to building generally... and to well planned building in particular.

Legoland would welcome peace, that's for sure.

GhengisFarb™ · June 13, 2003, 07:29

There certainly appears to be growing sentiments in Vox's favor the longer GS refuses to disavow the claims of Betahound.

If his comments are untrue I do not see how it is in GS's best interests to allow them to stand.

Beta · June 13, 2003, 07:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
by posting blatant lies publicly .....

And those would be ?????

That peace deal is as presented almost word for word as Jon presented it to you.

We did move our troops to the plains after indication our intentions and why we were doing it. We did refrain from further attacks of any sort - including attacks on Inchon.

You did send a peace deal unaccepted in the game. We did send it back adding Dissidentville, along with the peace proposal as indicated. You have rejected all our offers and indicated that the only acceptable solution is us off the continent.

Quote:

..at times when our teams struggle to find a peace formula that everyone can agree on.

You are struggling? Your terms to-date have been fairly draconian. And your private message which you originally posted publicly certainly gives a good indication of the GS attitude. Something about extinction and hunting down our galleys if we didn't accept your terms - which see us evacuate and turn over North Estonia to you. Hah.

FrustratedPoet · June 13, 2003, 07:41

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
There certainly appears to be growing sentiments in Vox's favor the longer GS refuses to disavow the claims of Betahound.

If his comments are untrue I do not see how it is in GS's best interests to allow them to stand.

We're working on our response. It'll be presented soon I hope - probably by PM. I don't think we have any interest in getting drawn into another flame war in this forum by arguing about this here. That's in nobody's best interests.

Beta · June 13, 2003, 07:42

And furthermore - lets take a look at the war.

Vox destroyed one warrior and one pike in our invasion south. We took no cities. We destroyed no infrastructure. We took considerable losses.

Yes - we forced you into tiggering an early GA. And yes - we forced you to convert from building to military production.

But you got a second wonder out of it. We have offered all of South Estonia in the peace treaty, Which includes another iron supply. (You now have 3) Plus two techs. Plus a humbled and small neighbor.

Beta · June 13, 2003, 07:58

Given the situation in North Estonia with the recent GS landing, and the tone of messages received from GS, Vox hereby officially requests support from the nations of the world, simply to survive.

We ask for no offensive actions against GS, but for assistance in defending North Estonia.

..... Beta.

Shiber · June 13, 2003, 08:01

You don't even have the dignity to await our official response...

Beta · June 13, 2003, 08:14

The tone of your message to me - although 'unofficial', was fairly clear. And although it may be only one GS member's view, and unofficial at that, it is clear from GS's actions and attitudes that it is a reasonable reflection of the majority view within GS.

If it is not - then we will soon find out.

Tiberius · June 13, 2003, 08:20

[personal opinion]

Calling Beta's words "blatant lies" and then answering in a PM instead of making your position public certainly doesn't improve GS's image and shifts the propaganda war even more in Vox's favour.

[/personal opinion]

Vox's proposal seems reasonable and since we strongly support peace we are supporting this proposal. Having no words from GS makes our position more difficult, though.

Shiber · June 13, 2003, 08:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Tiberius
[personal opinion]

Calling Beta's words "blatant lies" and then answering in a PM instead of making your position public certainly doesn't improve GS's image and shifts the propaganda war even more in Vox's favour.

[/personal opinion]

We don't want to post an official reply in Beta's thread because we don't want to get into a flame war with Beta. However, I realize that answering by PM is problematic because it won't allow Beta to review our PoV and defend his.
We thought of that, and we're discussing the possibilily of inviting everyone to a chat, where we will present our PoV to representatives of all teams (we ask to be allowed to speak first, since Beta has already released several public announcements), and then Vox will have their chance to defend their PoV, and then we will both take questions from the public. Are the leaders of the nations of Bob and of Lego Land interested in attending such a gathering?

Quote:

Vox's proposal seems reasonable and since we strongly support peace we are supporting this proposal. Having no words from GS makes our position more difficult, though.

I assure you that we will explain, in detail, why we view Beta's proposal as unfair and even bordering insulting, and why we feel that our own proposal is not only fair, considering Vox's situation and plans for the future, but also the only possible peace agreement that we are willing to accept.

I ask of the general public not to be rash to judge GS by Beta's words alone. Detailed explanations are to come.

Hot_Enamel · June 13, 2003, 08:49

[yet another personal opinion]

GS is certainly being outmanouvered on the diplomatic/propaganda front yet again.

The peace deal offered by Vox is very generous, and I am unsure why GS is not accepting it ? And refuses to publically respond to the Vox claims.

In particular, I am interested if the Vox claim that GS killed immortals left undefended in good faith, is true !!

[/yet another personal opinion]

{edit} - Typed before Shiber got his post down

UnOrthOdOx · June 13, 2003, 08:58

[personal opinion]

It has not been THAT long yet.

I am just now reading any of this. To critisize a team for not having an OFFICIAL response to an announcement they did not know was comming within a few hours is a bit of folly, I feel. I doubt all of GS has even had a chance to see this yet. This is especially true of GS, who is much more prone to concensus in case the rest of you haven't figured that out yet. They don't have an official who can just respond and that be official like some of the other teams. This has good and bad points to it.

Reguarding the editting of whatever comments were made above, well, anyone who was a part of the SPDG knows I do not care for that much when it can be considered remotely official. (understatement of the century)[/personal opinion]

Still, an official statement is needed.

vondrack · June 13, 2003, 08:59

Well, not sure what makes this chat differ from a discussion in this thread?

Just that fewer people will be able to get involved... and even those fewer people will create a bigger mess. The discussion will be more difficult to follow (judging from the "megachats" I had the dubious pleasure to attend to in the past) and people will be more likely to heat up. I myself often start writing a post and then scrap it after giving it another thought. This is difficult to do in a chat.

Personally, I don't think the chat is a good idea. Posting here sounds like a good way to give a detailed explanation regarding the "blatant lies" of Vox Controli. It does not matter if you then get involved into a flame war here or in a chat...

Just my two cents...

Aeson · June 13, 2003, 09:00

Please note that several of our members have not even had a chance to read this thread. There can be no official GS statement until we (as a team) know what we are making a statement about.

People of the world do sleep, work, ect.

vondrack · June 13, 2003, 09:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson
Please note that several of our members have not even had a chance to read this thread. There can be no official GS statement until we (as a team) know what we are making a statement about.

People of the world do sleep, work, ect.

Understood. I believe most comments in this thread can be summed up as "let's see what GS has to say about it first".

And that official statement of GS is anxiously awaited.

Hot_Enamel · June 13, 2003, 09:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Aeson
Please note that several of our members have not even had a chance to read this thread. There can be no official GS statement until we (as a team) know what we are making a statement about.

People of the world do sleep, work, ect.

Quite true...and it is very fair to allow GS time to come up with a response.

I however, can never join a chat during sensible hours here in Oz...So I would prefer to do it by thread.

OPD · June 13, 2003, 09:08

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
[personal opinion]
I am just now reading any of this. To critisize a team for not having an OFFICIAL response to an announcement they did not know was comming within a few hours is a bit of folly, I feel. I doubt all of GS has even had a chance to see this yet. This is especially true of GS, who is much more prone to concensus in case the rest of you haven't figured that out yet. They don't have an official who can just respond and that be official like some of the other teams. This has good and bad points to it.

cheers UnO

Quote:

Reguarding the editting of whatever comments were made above, well, anyone who was a part of the SPDG knows I do not care for that much when it can be considered remotely official. (understatement of the century)[/personal opinion]

This game may reach the stage of international law concerning such things.

UnOrthOdOx · June 13, 2003, 09:19

Quote:

Originally posted by OPD
This game may reach the stage of international law concerning such things.

I was never able to get that law passed within the SPDG, I doubt it will fly here either. It's just a personal grievance brought on by a bad incident with an official editting away certain things once upon a time...nearly made me leave the SPDG or quit the paper that I had to rewrite due to that...

Shiber · June 13, 2003, 09:27

Vondrack: true, but chats can be controlled using the 'moderated' flag. Trip can be made the channel operator and moderate/demoderate the room at the appropriate times.
The main advantage of a chat would be that teams will be able to receive answers to their questions on-line and then respond to those answers with more questions.
True, not everyone can participate, but if anyone has any specific questions that he'd like to ask, he can notify his team's representatives. The log can then be posted on the public forum, and if people demand, we can hold a second "press conference".

Arrian · June 13, 2003, 09:53

Wow, I just saw this. I haven't even read it in detail yet...

Give us a little time here, folks... last thing I knew, we were working on a deal with Vox. Now it appears to have blown up, and I don't even know why.

-Arrian

ruby_maser · June 13, 2003, 10:49

Shiber, I've always liked that GS logo in your avatar

It shows team spirit but not lacking in a sense of humor.

I was thinking I should start considering putting "AI" on my forehead in my avatar, but maybe I could give myself a little more credit

ManicStarSeed · June 13, 2003, 11:40

As Minister of Diplomatic Affairs, Let me say a statement is forthcoming soon. I only found out about this 7 hours ago there was a spell of sleep between then and now. I still need to check in with my team and see what they think of the response I prepared....

Mss

nbarclay · June 13, 2003, 11:47

This is not an official GS response, but seeing how people seem to be responding to the situation, I consider it important to clear the air a bit.

(1) We had made it clear to Vox that the war would continue unless and until a peace settlement was reached. Vox therefore had no basis from which to expect not to be attacked.

(2) The immortals Vox moved were among the first to invade our lands, and had already been convicted of Invasion in Violation of Treaty, complicity in the murder of Grog, and Threatening the Public Safety. They were under sentence of death, and all but two had been reduced to a single hit point by catapults prior to the turn in question. Their execution was carried out precisely on schedule, very much as it would have been had they not moved.

(3) Further, moving those immortals placed them adjacent to not one, not two, but three undefended Gathering Storm workers. If that was a "sign of good faith," it was a grossly incompetent one.

(4) If Vox were trustworthy, we might regard Beta's peace offer as reasonable in spite of the fact that the only territory Vox is offering to concede is territory already behind our front lines, territory that Vox has no real hope of holding in any case. But after the blatant lies and elaborate deception Vox used to set up their attack on us, we find it difficult to see how a peace treaty from Vox could be worth the paper it's printed on. Leaving Vox on our continent would mean spending enormous sums of gold and shields on units to guard the border for the rest of the game. We see no reason why we should suffer from such a penalty just because others have decided to put expediency ahead of honor. (The irony is that even though a lack of trust is the biggest obstacle to peace, Beta seems intent on further demonstrating Vox's untrustworthiness in this thread.)

(5) As I pointed out to Jon when he conveyed Vox's willingness to forego iron, that is no real guarantee of security at all. During the war, Vox actually went so far as to deliberately disconnect their iron supply from most of their cities so they could continue building warriors and spears and upgrading them to immortals and pikes. All it takes is iron for one turn for warriors and spears to become immortals and pikes.

(6) We have little sympathy for Vox's arguments that the war has cost them more than it cost us. Both their losses and ours are their responsibility for starting the war, and we do not see how they have a right to sympathy for a situation they brought on themselves. And as I noted above, if we allow them to remain on our continent, their untrustworthiness would continue to impose a considerable cost on us long after the war is over.

(7) Finally, I should note that Lux Invicta was hounded off their home continent over alleged provocations that were nowhere near as serious as what Vox did to us. Certainly, neither Neu Demogyptica nor Glory of War should find it surprising that we want Vox gone from our continent.

If Vox wants a temporary cease-fire in order to evacuate from the continent in a more orderly fashion, and if they can find somewhere to evacuate to, that can probably still be arranged in spite of Beta's latest series of half-truths. But we do not view sharing a continent with a nation that seems committed to dishonesty as a way of life as a viable option.

UnOrthOdOx · June 13, 2003, 11:50

MSS:

LOVE the avatar

vondrack · June 13, 2003, 12:02

Nathan, do I read your post correctly, please?

Do you say:

"There will be no peace until there is one single last Voxian unit/city on Estonia."

Is that right?

GhengisFarb™ · June 13, 2003, 12:08

Excellent prologue, nbarclay.

Is there a response from Betahound?

Arrian · June 13, 2003, 12:09

By the way, we almost have an official GS team response ready, but I guess Nathan wanted to get that stuff off his chest.

As for peace terms, Vondrack, at this point, yes. I was among the minority on GS that would have accepted less than a Voxexodus (odd, the co-general of the armies being a relative "peacenik"). Now, after this stunt, I'm not sure I want peace with them ever.

-Arrian

nbarclay · June 13, 2003, 12:18

Vondrack, would surviving with only a single city on our continent be worth the bother for Vox even if we would consider allowing them to do so? The way I've been looking at it, unless we would be willing to leave Vox enough on our continent to be worth their while, they are a lot better off evacuating and finding somewhere else to set up shop. From what we've heard, you have plenty of room on Lego if you're interested in keeping Vox alive.