Vox Public Announcement - Peace in Our Times?

[ManicStarSeed]

Nations of the world:
As the Minister of Diplomatic Affairs, I am deeply saddened that this is the route that Vox has chosen to take regarding our once private peace negotiation. GS will not be held hostage to Vox's apparent attempt to bully us (in the public forum) into a policy contrary to what we have already adopted. GS has been forthcoming in it's decision that we are no longer willing to share our continent with Vox.

Please allow me to clarify the situation.
First when Vox approached us for Peace, we stated very clearly that
1) We seek an unconditional surrender from Vox, that means peace on our terms. AND
2) Hostilties will continue until we reach a final agreement.
Beta said that Vox understood the message. So any Vox casualties should be no surprise.
When we asked whether Vox would leave the continent for peace, we received the peace proposal outlined in Betas first post.
Let it be known that Gathering Storm REJECTS the proposal, (no matter how “reasonable” it seems) in favor of our own conditions for peace - a Vox exodus from our continent.
A day or two ago, Jon Miller PMed us (before this slur campaign) and stated there were some errors made and that Vox has been planning an exodus. Gathering storm considered this a major break through. We sent a brief message to Vox outlining a portion of what we expect, then suddenly this thread appears and negotiations have now stalled.

Before ANY of you judge Gathering Storm in the way we conducted ourselves or what we ask in terms of peace we ask you…
Do the other nations want Vox to survive? Let us know…We really want to know.
Are YOU willing to have Vox as a neighbor and share a border with them?
Speak up, please…
Currently, Vox is the only nation to actually eliminate a team so far . Assuming we all want Vox to survive… Will you be willing to share your land mass with Vox?
We are not. BUT….here is what we were willing to do to insure the survival of Vox…
Gathering Storm was willing to give up to 12 turns of cease fire where we observe Vox disbanding their remaining military to pay for galleys and settlers to load up and leave. Vox may maintain a small military (during the exodus but not in cities) to protect their new settlements. We were willing to provide some techs and resources while they re-established free of charge (assuming it complies with other deals). Granted Vox never learned of these details because they chose to smear us in public before we got to negotiated a final deal.

Let me address some other grievous issues raised
Yes, we made an amphibious landing in Vox’s Core because WE ARE AT WAR folks. No treaty was “signed.” “Hostilities will continue until peace is finalized”
Beta stated that Vox moved (5) not-so immortals off a mountain in good faith. These troops were down to 1 or 2 hp each. Gathering Storm says that they should have disbanded them if it was done in good faith, not move them to threaten our workers. Also we were going to ask that these forces be disbanded as part of any agreement, so now we have one less demand.

For Vox trying to claim foul is plain desperation. Just because they started this war, what gives them the right to expect that they can dictate the terms in which it ends. We expected a proud honorable foe, not this. This latest development has hardened our hearts and strengthened our resolve. I am uncertain that Gathering Storm can accept peace on any terms now. [edit]Yet we are still discussing the possibility of peace [/edit]I will say that the path to peace is so narrow that we are uncertain that Vox’s “mouth” could even fit through. We say this to Vox, (though it assumes more honor than you have show)…May your blades chip and shatter.

ManicStarSeed,
Minister of Diplomatic Affairs
Gathering Storm.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by Togas
Not that my opinion or the opinion of Spain matters much.

It does

We are not a party to this war. We represent just one of the nations on this planet. We have an interest in peace as it allows us to sell our wares to all nations,

This war is not stopping it from what I know...

and we also have an interest in seeing that some balance of power remains.

I would simply like to say that I, and the nation of Spain, are saddened by reports that GS will settle only for all of Vox's land. And if this is true, we then we live in dark times where the only real peace comes only after the destruction of one's former enemies.

Did we set the precedent (sp?) or did vox.... Remember Luxes death blow?

Gathering Storm is now the greatest nation in the world, surpassing all others with more citizens, power, wonders, and military might. None of us come close.

For now, Notice, you did not mention territory size...how convenient. We all know that in the long run, that is a primary factor.

Vox is now the weakest nation in the world without a single resource to their name and only a single incense. In the eyes of the world, Gathering Storm has acheived a stunning victory and arisen from this conflict as a power to be feared.

We worked very hard to do so

Isn't that enough? Can't that be enough? There comes a point where you stop being the victim and start being a bully. Please don't cross that line.

When to say when is a tricky subject, It is a two way street. Who is the bully in this thread? We are being demonized in this thread, No?
Crossing the line, as we see it would be giving them NO out.

Doing to Vox what they did to you don't make it any more right.

We will not set up a clever, complex deception to get the better of our neighboe, so no worries here. They admit the ruse and deception. We have been upfront.

I know that Gathering Storm prides itself on being trustworthy and honorable. I also know that they have a deep loathing for the Voxians. I ask only that Gathering Storm try to embrace their ideals and remain "above" the level of the Voxians. Take the moral high ground.

We are, sort of. We have been forthright and honest. We are realizing that it means nothing in the game if you are perceived as strong however. Military success and moral high ground are not mutually exclusive.

Accept this offer and obtain some Good Will with the rest of the world. Denying this offer and conquering Vox will only further tarnish the already damaged reputation of your team.

No we do not accept this offer. You are being played Togas, poor weak Vox. So they picked on the wrong guy and are facing the grim consequences. They weren’t weak when this started. We were, but where was the public outcry then?

If you want to see mercy, Welcome them to Bob, Give them some land to resettle. We might give them time… That is our mercy, Generosity is fine as long as someone else is giving...

How come Vox eliminates Lux by deception and we do not have the good will of the world because we are honest about it. Double standards are real, I guess…

Please do not consider this a flame. It is meant to be a plea for mercy and for restraint.

--Togas

No worries, just honest debate.

ManicStarSeed,
Minister of Diplomatic Affairs
Gathering Storm.

[edit] darn quotes

[UnOrthOdOx]

Sorry, this has nothing to do with this thread really, other than a pathetic attempt to inject some humor.

We will not set up a clever, complex deception to get the better of our neighbor, so no worries here.

Does anyone else find this funny comming from a team whom has a member who is responsible for the coining of the very term 'Arrian's Deception'?

I'll bet there are a few on GS who wish that were even a possibility right about now?

this is all intended in humor, no offense meant to anyone.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
Sorry, this has nothing to do with this thread really, other than a pathetic attempt to inject some humor.



Does anyone else find this funny comming from a team whom has a member who is responsible for the coining of the very term 'Arrian's Deception'?

continuing the thread jack.... sure I can see the humor , but what does it relate to.... wht is the Arrians deception? PM me if yo wan to let it die here...
Mss

[Arrian]

[Arrian]

MSS - real quick threadjack:

Someone once posted that if you wipe out all your AI neighbors before meeting other civs (like ones that started on a different continent) those newly-met civs won't have any idea of any diplomatic unpleasantness you pulled. So you could be a right bastard, breaking treaties left and right, so long as you wiped out everyone who knew about it.

I really liked the idea, and started trying to do it - with some success. I posted about it, and so the term was coined. Even though the original idea wasn't mine.

Incidentally, I don't really use the Deception much. I certainly wipe out my AI neighbors, but I don't do the treaty-breaking part. Partly because it can be hard to pull off the Deception, and I don't want my rep screwed. Partly just 'cause.

But it's a purely SP thing.

-Arrian

(I wish I did know who to credit for coming up with the deception, btw).

[WhiteBandit]

Originally posted by Arrian
What is it will all these other teams, not involved in the war, wanting peace? And while I don't want to sound rude, how is it any of your business? The Gathering Storm was attacked. We have responded. Now that we're winning, the rest of the world seems to want to prevent our victory and acquisition of Voxian lands (which is what the Bobians got out of the destruction of Lux). Please don't tell me you're doing it out of some heartfelt desire to keep Vox in the game because their elimination would be cruel. Vox is worth something to you: possible tech deal(s) for nationalism, and of course, if they have land left on Estonia, it's land GS doesn't have.

Heh! I'm going to go a totally different way with this (with the usual disclaimer that I am a mere peon and do not represent the views of my team).

After analyzing threads all day and catching up on the history of the demogame, I have to say I totally agree with Arrian. As far as I'm concerned, GS has every right to persue this war to whatever conclusion they chose.

Mistakes/Risks were taken on either side, and someone will undoubtably be paying for them. That is just the way things work. Heh.

Granted, peace would be nice, but I myself see GS's view. Peace will come... but it will come from rather unpleasant results.

[Jon Shafer]

Burn and pillage!

It doesn't matter who.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Arrian
[disclaimer] Please don't tell me you're doing it out of some heartfelt desire to keep Vox in the game because their elimination would be cruel. Vox is worth something to you: possible tech deal(s) for nationalism, and of course, if they have land left on Estonia, it's land GS doesn't have.

-Arrian

I think this is the most accurate reasoning behind the other civs supporting a peace. As stated by your own team members many of the other teams view GS as the sole world power now. I readily admit that the concept of GS becoming even more powerful puts me in the mental position of thinking of ways to hold that power in check.

Anytime one team gains a distinct advantage or outpaces the other in level of power it is a common response from the other teams to look for ways to check or hinder that power.

Not necessarily justified, but its the way people react.

[ManicStarSeed]

/me bows to WhiteBandit...

Arrian/ UnO... Ahh...I know that trick.... It is difficult to implement beyond one or two civs though...

Now returning to or regularly scheduled program of
point-counterpoint...
Mss

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Trip
Burn and pillage!

It doesn't matter who.

Coming from the guy who got burnt and pillaged!

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by Trip
Burn and pillage!

It doesn't matter who.

We also see why Lux did not make it... Remember people, this is important...
Pillage first, Then burn....

Mss

[Jon Shafer]

[nbarclay]

The fun thing about pulling dirty tricks on AIs in SP is that whether we treat them honorably or dishonorably, it's all 1's and 0's to the computer. No one is hurt, and no one with a vested interest is offended. MP is an entirely different matter in that regard.

[alva]

Gathering Storm is now the greatest nation in the world, surpassing all others with more citizens, power, wonders, and military might.

Note Togas, that you and many others still have a GA to look forward too.
These things can be very powerfull.

I also know that they have a deep loathing for the Voxians.

We do not, but yes, we are and still are at war.

Accept this offer and obtain some Good Will with the rest of the world

Even through the eyes of a neutral person, the offer is nowhere enough. Sorry.

Please do not consider this a flame.

Not taken as such

EDIT: damn, for some reason, 'Poly didn't give me a notice there was a second page on this thread

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The fun thing about pulling dirty tricks on AIs in SP is that whether we treat them honorably or dishonorably, it's all 1's and 0's to the computer. No one is hurt, and no one with a vested interest is offended. MP is an entirely different matter in that regard.

Oh yeah? Gen. Protection Fault, who usually is commander of AI armies gets pissed whenever I kick his ass and crashes my computer whenever he can. Is that not a grudge?

[nbarclay]

Keep in mind that any comparison between GS and other teams (besides Vox) needs to add the better part of 20 turns' GA bonus to wealth and production for the other teams. Your GAs are ahead of you, while ours is mostly behind us. That's (at a minimum) hundreds of gold and hundreds of shields that you have to look forward to and we don't. Further, after the war is over, the large military we needed to build up to fight will be a serious drain on our economy. I certainly won't say we're in terrible shape, but I don't view us as being in the kind of dominant position others try to portray us as being in either.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Master Zen

Oh yeah? Gen. Protection Fault, who usually is commander of AI armies gets pissed whenever I kick his ass and crashes my computer whenever he can. Is that not a grudge?

Sounds like maybe your computer has a bit more personality than most. Fortunately, Gen. Protection Fault seems to spend most of his time AWOL on mine.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by ManicStarSeed


We also see why Lux did not make it... Remember people, this is important...
Pillage first, Then burn....

Mss

Yes, yes, very important. Bread and wine taste much better if you remove them from the farmhouse BEFORE you burn it to the ground.

[vondrack]

Just few re's:

Originally posted by Arrian

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack "We were looking for ways to expand on Estonia anyways, so this war is basically welcome..." - I believe I am quoting this correctly.

Quoting whom, from where? -Arrian

Honestly, I did not even know it was Aeson saying that... I just happen to remember that line well, since it is exactly how I feel about AIs daring to attack me in SP games. (I often limit myself to "retaliation wars" in SP, to make games more of a challenge).

When I mentioned that statement I knew it was said in the best spirit of trash-talking... but trash-talking is not talking nonsense, it's exaggerating and making fun of what everybody understands or views as natural, inevitable, or obvious. I mentioned it to point out - and I hope the later part of my post made that clear - that if Voxes did not attack GS, GS would, sooner or later, attack Vox. Perhaps with a 10-turn notice, perhaps not.

I view that as totally ok. I believe those of you that are members of the ISDG team understand I've got absolutely no problem with this concept. It's not a problem of the people playing the game, it's the problem of the game, of how it's designed. I mentioned that statement to somewhat lessen the importance of the "it was them attacking us" argument. Right, Voxes fired the first shot. But if it was not them, it would be you. All this "we could never trust them any more" stuff is... no offense meant - a bit pathetic. It is just a matter of making sure Voxes would not be able to do any harm to you again - which the Voxian peace proposal (I would call it a "surrender proposal") seemed to guarantee. And if - in your eyes - not, then it would be - from the PR-image PoV - better to counter by publicly posting your demands, instead of just stating you don't accept anything but all of Estonia.

Originally posted by Arrian

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack Legoland is committed to keeping Vox Controli alive, yes. We will certainly consider doing more than just letting vondrack express his own personal ideas here.

Why? -Arrian

Perhaps because dealing with Voxes has always been a pleasure, cordial, bringing fine deals, and a feeling we were treated as an esteemed partner and not as a second rate dumb AI?

This is NOT meant as an attack at any team. Merely pointing out Voxes have always been easy to deal with.

Originally posted by Shiber
What puzzles me, though, is how come when GoW and ND were almost frantic about driving Lux off of Bob few have publicly expressed their discomfort with the idea, whereas when GS wants to remove Vox from its territory, a civ that has caused much more trouble than Lux ever did (according to my knowledge of their actions that have agitated ND and GoW), so many people raise an eyebrow and frown at our declarations (which are much less harsh than the ones that ND and GoW have released during the war with Lux, particularly the Tripula the Impaler folklore).

This is difficult for me to comment as Lego was not part of that event at all. Or, almost no part. But I'd guess that the primary reason was the balance of power - at the time of Luxian Wars, the "balance of power" was only being formed. Spoils of Lux went or could have gone to three different teams. That's probably why nobody actually considered that a major problem. This time, whatever Voxes lose, GS gains.

Yes, it is definitely not "fair", I agree.

Originally posted by Shiber
Maybe there's something that I'm missing. Maybe I'm not reading the political map correctly, or maybe GS has made some diplomatic mistakes in the past to make the other teams "wary" of it. If you have any idea, and can talk about it, please tell me - I am very curious.

Well, I am probably going to be executed for actually commenting on this. But... I hope the purpose of this game is to improve ourselves, to realize one's weaknesses and such, is it not? So... c'mon... GS has probably the most brilliant builders, the most brilliant generals... and the worst diplomats the world has ever seen. I mean no offense, really, I am just honest - but GS diplomacy is a plain disaster. Instead of listing examples, which would inevitably turn into a quote-war we have no need for, I will mention one of my rather old SP games here. May give you a hint... it is not an exact parallel though, mind you.

Dunno what civ I was, does not really matter... but I was the best one, feeling so good about how great an empire I was running. One of my neighbours declared war on me... admittedly, a bit unexpectedly. I thought I would handle it easily... just reshuffled some units to better respond to the initial attack wave. Then, on the next turn, another civ declared war on me... huh?... ok, few more troop relocations and things should be fine. Then another one... hell, what's problem??? Why did they join HIM and not me? I did NOTHING to them... needless to say I lost that game in a rather humiliating way. Fighting all my neighbours at once was too much even for my glorious empire...

Now, answer one simple question here for yourself: why did those civs join or support my enemy? Yes, the answer was trivial: because I have never asked them to join ME...

Several times in the Civ3 Strat forum, I noticed the idea that it was not so important to OWN a great wonder, as it was to DENY it to others. Now, can this be applied to wars and allies? If one warring side tells me "yeah, no problem, we can handle that, don't worry" (read: no deal available) and the other one says "look, we cannot make it on our own, we'd really appreciate if you could support us, even indirectly - if you can help us here with this, we could give you that..." (read: a deal available). So, what does a civ having no interest in either warring party winning the war do? Yes, right, it sticks to doing business. Wherever it is available.

Do not read too much into this, you could easily get mislead as to what actually applies to this very game and how. But try thinking this over a bit, people of Gathering Storm... and you may better understand why it's you defending your stance here and not Beta... which I can surely understand may feel quite unfair.

Originally posted by nbarclay
I certainly won't say we're in terrible shape, but I don't view us as being in the kind of dominant position others try to portray us as being in either.

What did GS do to ensure other teams would perceive its strength "properly"? Is there any reason for "others portraying you this way"? What if they actually see you that way?


And one last notice: please, keep in mind that I'm ATM the MoW of Legoland only, not its leader. I did make it clear I was presenting my personal views, not those of Legoland. I just feel these threads are becoming a bit dull with mostly the same stuff being mulled over every time, so I'm posting even things that probably should remain untold until the game ends - considering that hinting at mistakes being done can affect the future events...

[Arrian]

All this "we could never trust them any more" stuff is... no offense meant - a bit pathetic. It is just a matter of making sure Voxes would not be able to do any harm to you again - which the Voxian peace proposal (I would call it a "surrender proposal") seemed to guarantee.

Not so, at least not from our perspective.

Look, it's all very well and good that your diplomatic exchanges with Vox have gone well. Ours have left us with a RADICALLY different impression of Vox than the one you hold.

Call it pathetic if you wish. We do not trust them. I cannot see how we ever can.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. We're not stupid.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

Oh, and Whitebandit, you rock! Thank you for chiming in.

At least SOMEBODY sees our side of this.

-Arrian

[BigFree]

Nice post vondrack; I like the part about how all the AI turned on you BECAUSE you did not ask them to join YOU.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by vondrack

I mentioned that statement to somewhat lessen the importance of the "it was them attacking us" argument. Right, Voxes fired the first shot. But if it was not them, it would be you. All this "we could never trust them any more" stuff is... no offense meant - a bit pathetic. It is just a matter of making sure Voxes would not be able to do any harm to you again - which the Voxian peace proposal (I would call it a "surrender proposal") seemed to guarantee. And if - in your eyes - not, then it would be - from the PR-image PoV - better to counter by publicly posting your demands, instead of just stating you don't accept anything but all of Estonia.

I find it amazing how people seem to miss the central point no matter how many times we repeat it. It is not the mere fact that Vox attacked us that makes trust so nearly impossible. Rather, it is the elaborate deception they used to set it up. Not just breach of a treaty, but a series of outright, direct lies, both to us and to the world at large. Vox couldn't have done a better job of destroying our ability to trust them if they had deliberatley set out to do so.

As for making sure Vox can't hurt us again, by far the surest way is to remove them from the continent, if not from the game. As long as they are here, they tie up our troops defending a border, which in turn forces us to maintiain a larger and more expensive military than we would need otherwise, which in turn distracts from our building efforts. If we could trust them, potential for future cooperation might offset that cost or even make their continued presence an asset, but in the absence of trust, what redeeming value does their continued presence have to us to offset its cost? We get value from eliminating them; what value can we count on getting from letting them stay here, aside perhaps from having the rest of the world pleased with our willingness to place ourselves at a disadvantage?

All Vox can really offer that we can't claim by force is future considerations, and future considerations aren't worth much in the absence of trust. Even the AI knows that much.

Nathan

[HarryH]

Originally posted by Arrian
We had a border treaty with Vox which they discarded at their whim. There was a set method for renegotiating or withdrawing from the agreement, but it required several (10?) turns notice. Vox instead wanted suprise on their side and attacked, breaking the treaty outright.

GS had already said they wanted to renegotiate the treaty and sent a proposal so the clock was already ticking to expire the initial treaty. How many turns passed between the start of the renegotiation and the start of the war I do not know.

Vox's troops are running N. In our view it is because Inchon flanked the majority of their forces. They need their units N of Inchon to defend the bottleneck.

We had units that could attack Inchon but they were moved further north instead while other units were moving north to vacate the land to the south.

AFAIK, no statement of this type was ever made to GS.

A statement was sent to GS (as posted in Beta's message that started this thread). We got a reply back. My guess is the message was not read very carefully or fully.

Their supposed "good will" move also threatened several of our workers.

Once our units were down to one HP they no threat to the pikes in the area. You could have protected the workers with pikes. Our units were moved to the plains to show "good will" as stated in the message. If you wanted to show good faith, you could have protected your workers and left our units alone.

Shiber wrote:
Maybe there's something that I'm missing. Maybe I'm not reading the political map correctly, or maybe GS has made some diplomatic mistakes in the past to make the other teams "wary" of it. If you have any idea, and can talk about it, please tell me - I am very curious.

When I joined this game it was well underway. I spent a lot of time reading the old threads of my team. There was a lot of talk about and with GS in the early days as they were the only other known civ for a while. Some things I read in the chats told me that GS did not take Vox seriously and would use them or their land one way or another. When GS started to renegotiate the intial treaty it set off some warning alarms in my head. I don't want to get into an argument about what the statements actually and whether my interpretation was right or wrong. I only want to show this as an example where an event that occurred some time before can affect one's interpretation of a later event. In viewing the same events someone else may come to different conclusions. What may appear to be good diplomacy can be interpretted very differently by someone else.

Diplomacy is the one area of the game that is very different between SP and MP. Diplomacy is also very different in MP as the game does not impose more than just a few basic rules (e.g., you can not trade a resource you do not have, you can not trade maps without the technology, etc.). Add in a lot of human factors (e.g., team dynamics) and you can see that diplomacy in an DG game can be the one thing that can be very different from one game to the next. That can be good or bad. Although individual teams may develop their own rules for diplomacy there are none for the game unless those rules are made and all teams agree to them. Diplomacy and these announcement threads are contentious in this game. As this is the first team DG game I hope it is something we can all learn from.

[ManicStarSeed]

Personal observations….

Arrian:
I think Vod’s point is it is up to us to approach diplomacy as if it was a business transaction lots of give and take, take the time to understand the undercurrent and the mind of our friends in the world, nurture it

BUT…

It is easy to be a diplomatic good guy when you have your own land mass, haven’t fought a war with a neighbor, haven’t had to defeat an enemy, are the underdog in a war, don’t look like the tough kid in the class and are adept at manipulating public sentiment. GS’s biggest problem is that we are INEPT and manipulating public sentiment. I would like to see what happens when another war breaks out that does not involve GS and RP, GoW, ND or Lego cries uncle…Lets see who the real spin doctors are.

From what this thread seems to imply is that it is not OK to eliminate a foe. Be the nice guy, GS we like Vox. High road… Bahhh it is just rhetoric I ask…Is it good strategy to weaken a foe to the point of forever furious but not eliminate them from the game just because of feelings? This threads whole basis is that a civ must accept peace when offered.

Our diplomatic issues are unique to the geopolitics of our unique land mass. Wait until Bob mixes it up. This is likely not the last war, nor is GS the last bully. We are apparently the first to cross the bridge; however.

Careful people, or you might prove to be hypocrites if you are not careful.

[Tiberius]

ManicStarSeed:
hint: when Vondrack said "but GS diplomacy is a plain disaster" he wasn't referring only to the DS-Vox war, and it has nothing to do with having your own land and not fighting wars and so on. You either face your own mistakes and correct them (or try at least) or lie yourself and further "suffer" the consequencies.

[ManicStarSeed]

Originally posted by Tiberius
ManicStarSeed:
hint: when Vondrack said "but GS diplomacy is a plain disaster" he wasn't referring only to the DS-Vox war, and it has nothing to do with having your own land and not fighting wars and so on. You either face your own mistakes and correct them (or try at least) or lie yourself and further "suffer" the consequencies.

Actuallly I understood that. Personally I understand where he was coming from. I have not been too involved in the diplomacy up to recently. I watched what went on and I cringe quite a lot. If it was up to me it would be different. I just focused on the war as that is what this thread is about.

Vox (beta) is masterfull at manipulating public sentiment, I helps that they have been coorperative throughout. It makes you receptive to their influence. I know that GS is a bear to deal with. I hate to see some of my team "negotiate" I can't tell if the are using a gun, baseball bat or steam roller when they should be using a feather. Again I said too much. I will take it up with the team later, but this is about a percieved injustice regarding a war we did not start but intend to finish.

Mss

[Arrian]

Tiberius,

Speaking of reaping what you've sewn, what do you think Vox is doing right now?

-Arrian

[Theseus]