Confrontation in Eastern Apolyton! - Page 2

Whaleboy · June 13, 2003, 21:05

I think it would be a good idea, but would tend to stifle the military innovation that has been so decisive in history.

I fear that saying x points = y number of warships is somewhat limiting, because one can have different types of warships, with different tech etc. Accounting for that would create enormous complexity, and not doing so would leave the same ambiguity as today, so nothing has been achieved.

Jamski · June 14, 2003, 06:18

That's why someone just needs to keep an eye on friendly roleplaying... Imaginative and reasonable tactics, technology and troop movements mean the Mod is less likely to say, "Of your 200,000 nuclear weapons only three worked - perhaps you should have tested them better instead of building so many"

Geddit?

-Jam

Whaleboy · June 14, 2003, 10:14

I think a series of judges would be an idea, see the military strengths thread for my larger post on that.

Whaleboy · June 14, 2003, 10:24

The LF government has instructed the military commander on the FSS Hood to make clear to all friendly governments that they will only join a conflict if they are attacked first by a clear military strike, including a land invasion/attempted invasion, naval attack, airstrike or missile attack.

We will not tolerate a pre-emptive strike on Sheepsta, but will not defend that nation, merely disengage from the arena and be not involved in the war henceforth. Of course, if Sheepsta attacks, we shall defend Alecrast and assist in the resultant military action as previously agreed. We shall also engage that nation if we are attacked directly, but under no circumstances will we approve of, or henceforth aid a pre-emptive attack on Sheepsta.

If Sheep doesnt want a war, he doesnt get one as far as we are concerned.

The Alliance to defend Alecrast if attacked still stands of course, as previously iterated.

Sheep · June 15, 2003, 22:26

Sheepsta gives everyone assurances that if attacked we will fight back with all our strength. However we will not be the aggressor in Alecrast's attempt to take over yet another uranuim rich country in the region.

Whaleboy · June 19, 2003, 18:52

Will Sheepsta please define what it means by "attacked"?

Whaleboy · June 19, 2003, 18:54

So, ummm, when's this war gonna start?

My navy is running low on cheese... DONT MAKE ME SEND OUT SUPPLY SHIPS!

Sheep · June 19, 2003, 22:58

This war will never start if it has anythign to do with the Field Marshall. We may want vengence but we wont necessarily offer ourselves on a platter to our enemies.

As for attacked, it means any attack on any Sheepstan or allied ship, territory or property. Once this happens the perpertators are no longer safe from nuclear retaliation.

Urban Ranger · June 19, 2003, 23:07

It seems to me that your definition includes self-defense return fire by our naval elements.

Sheep · June 19, 2003, 23:32

We will not fire first. However we do not legally recognise the blockade, and any attack on a Sheepstan ship in international waters will be classified as a hostile attack, and would lift nuclear controls on striking, under current Sheepstan domestic laws

Whaleboy · June 20, 2003, 08:33

Upon receiving a request from the blockade, needing better sensory support, the LSS Excaliber, an obsolete, modified frigate with extra and more powerful sensory, surveillance and ECM/ECCM systems and no armaments has been dispatched East to the blockade.

Upon its arrival, it entered Sheepstan waters, continued for 64 nautical miles towards the Sheepstan mainland and stopped. An Alecrastian ship reported the course of the ship to the LF 3rd fleet to the south east of Alecrast, and our military are investigating the possibility of engine trouble or navigational equipment failure.

Meantime, our forces in the region have been strengthened by additional ships dispatched from the Marijuanian mainland, with additional support en route from New Marijuanian ports.

GeneralTacticus · June 20, 2003, 08:41

In order to avert any confusion and/or later accusations of ex post facto RPing, it should be noted that the Centralian, Chimerican, and Capitalstani forces have all been on high alert and mobilized along hostile/potentially hostile (i.e. Griffithian and Pax Sheepan) borders since this blockade was instiuted, , with aircraft partolling the borders and ships helping to enforce the blockade on Sheepsta.

Just a note for the record.

Archaic · June 20, 2003, 08:57

Likewise a note for the record, the Alecrast fleets in the blockade are the Sonii fleet, and the former Urbanised fleet (From the time of the protectorates) which had been assigned to the Fonseca treaty. The Marmo, Roid and Flaim fleets are on high alert patroling around Alecrast, and all land forces are on high alert. The Assiah, Alecrast's shady air force, have been spotted on CAP around both the Alecrast island, around the protectorate of Dissidents, and over the fleets in the blockade.

Jack_www · June 20, 2003, 09:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
We will not fire first. However we do not legally recognise the blockade, and any attack on a Sheepstan ship in international waters will be classified as a hostile attack, and would lift nuclear controls on striking, under current Sheepstan domestic laws

To Sheepstan Government:
This blockade is supported by all nations in Apolyton. All outbound and inbound sea trafic will be turned arround untill you agree to stop selling nuclear arms. Untill that time the USJ with its allies will enforce the blockade of Sheepsta.

Also the use of nuclear weapons as a frist strike weapon will not be tollorated by the USJ. At the first sign of a launch of SHeepsta nuclear missles the USJ will launch a full scale strike at all Sheepsta millitary and industrail targets. Several of our missle subs are in range of your nation, also our aircarft carriers carry "special weapons" and we have ICBMs as well. We sugest that you reconsider you use of nuclear weapons in this maner before it is too late.

Drogue · June 20, 2003, 09:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack_www
This blockade is supported by all nations in Apolyton.

Just a point, you do not speak for all nations. It is supported by many, but there are 145 nations in Apolyton, and less than 20 have voiced support IIRC.

Urban Ranger · June 20, 2003, 22:23

Elements of the Nooslandian Second Fleet actively participate in the blockade. Currently these mainly are lighter ships such as destroyers, but the core elements are put on high alert so they can reinforce at a moment's notice.

Both the Home Fleet and the First Fleet are also on alert.

Mr. President · June 21, 2003, 03:50

Two of Karakas' four carrier groups have been sent to participate in the blockade, namely the Devastator and Marhault Elsdragon groups.

Whaleboy · June 21, 2003, 08:28

The LSS Excalibur has continued inexplicably closer to the Sheepstan mainland. We are not sure what is going on here.

A small battlegroup has joined the blockade, consisting of 1 advanced battleship, 2 heavy cruisers, 5 light cruisers, 10 frigates, 15 gunboats and 2 hunter killer subs.

We have moved 3 "boomer" nuclear missile subs into the Sheepstan arena, to provide instant relaliation for any attempted nuclear attacks.

A large force is standing by to reinforce the blockade, which is more than large enough to become a naval attack force at a moments notice. Our aircraft, including anti-missile aircraft (modified long range bombers with ABM lasers and interceptor rockets), have started constant patrols between Sheepsta and Alecrast, as well as between Sheepsta and our own ships. Our air force is standing by to destroy any and all missile silos and air-bases in Sheepsta, should the unfortunate need arise.

Sheep · June 23, 2003, 03:17

Once again we have to tell you we have signed the nuclear non-proliferation pact. This blockade is useless. We also tell you that all Sheepstan ships have been told to continue on and not heed any threats. If they are attacked, Sheepsta will activate the clause in its laws allowing for nuclear deployment.

As for the Excalibur, if it is trouble we will allow it to enter a Sheepstan port. For a small fee the ship will then be allowed to use the dry dock services. Of course the ships crew, save a small contingent of personell confined to the ship, will be flown back home, at the Mill Limit's expense.

Archaic · June 23, 2003, 05:24

5 words Sheep.

The Black Pit of Charr

110 minutes ago
The Confederacy of New Sheepmania
I am Sheepsta's representative in this region. We look forward to wroking with all nations. As Sheepsta is no longer able to trade its nuclear weapons, Sheepsta has allowed us to continue in its place. New Sheepmania is open for buisness.

I've been watching the region ever since you sold Nukes to those nations in there, and you just screwed up. You, and your nation of Sheepsta, are liars. Selling Nukes Sheepsta based in another of your nations on consignment with them is just the same as you selling them yourself. Thank you for confirming, in public, that you've broken treaties you've ratified.

Sheep · June 23, 2003, 05:34

New Sheepmania has its own nukes. You are wrong. Sheepsta has just clearly passed the buck to a friend. Sheepsta itself has not sold anymore nukes that are theirs. Of course New Sheepmania not ever being from Apolyton, is not a party and never will be a party to the nuclear non-proliferation pact. Also keeping in mind, that New Sheepmania is a due member of the Treaty of Mt.Gravatt, albeit a extra-regional one.

Of course in the Sheepstan constituion there always is a clause that allows the Sheepstan government to withdraw from treaties. While we have not done this, and still abide by the nucler non-proliferation treaty we still remind you of this.

So sorry Archaic, you really need to try harder than that if you want to justify what is an illegal blockade.

Archaic · June 23, 2003, 05:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
New Sheepmania has its own nukes. You are wrong. Sheepsta has just clearly passed the buck to a friend. Sheepsta itself has not sold anymore nukes that are theirs. Of course New Sheepmania not ever being from Apolyton, is not a party and never will be a party to the nuclear non-proliferation pact. Also keeping in mind, that New Sheepmania is a due member of the Treaty of Mt.Gravatt, albeit a extra-regional one.

It would appear that you give a different meaning to the word "representative". With them Sheepsta's representative in this respect, Sheepsta is responsible for their actions insofar as they act as Sheepsta's representative. ie. While acting as Sheepsta's representative, they are bound by the Pact, regardless of if they signed it personally. If their actions violate the pact, Sheepsta, not they, are held responsible.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
Of course in the Sheepstan constituion there always is a clause that allows the Sheepstan government to withdraw from treaties. While we have not done this, and still abide by the nucler non-proliferation treaty we still remind you of this.

Irrelevant. You withdraw from a treaty, you break it, and it doesn't matter if it's legal by your domestic laws, it'll still be rightly decried by the region.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
So sorry Archaic, you really need to try harder than that if you want to justify what is an illegal blockade.

If you only knew....*Smirks*

Sheep · June 23, 2003, 05:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
It would appear that you give a different meaning to the word "representative". With them Sheepsta's representative in this respect, Sheepsta is responsible for their actions insofar as they act as Sheepsta's representative. ie. While acting as Sheepsta's representative, they are bound by the Pact, regardless of if they signed it personally. If their actions violate the pact, Sheepsta, not they, are held responsible.

Ahh but representatives are not accountable by their representor. However I fear I did use the wrong word. You've never did that before have you? Sheep thinks about the annexation turned protectorates scandal

Perhaps I should of used the word 'friend'. Understand. Sheepsta is not accountable at all by Sheepmania's actions. Sorry my good friend but you'll have to try harder.

Archaic · June 23, 2003, 05:59

In your case however, the context does not allow you to use the word "friend". The only word that makes sense in the context is "representative". You can't twist out of this one.

Furthermore, "representatives are not accountable by their representor"...

No such word as "representor" Sheep. Like I already said, the person the representative is representing is accountable for the actions of their representative while they are representing them. If they break treaties you are signatory to, then it is as if you have broken the treaty.

Like I said earlier Sheep, if only you knew....well, you will soon enough.

And BTW....why do you constantly call me "mate" or "friend"? We're neither, and your pathetic attempt to try and claim a moral high ground over me by addressing me as such is quite transparent.

Sheep · June 23, 2003, 06:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
In your case however, the context does not allow you to use the word "friend". The only word that makes sense in the context is "representative". You can't twist out of this one.

What does context matter. Sheepmania is its own entity. It is selling nukes. Not Sheepsta case closed.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Archaic
Furthermore, "representatives are not accountable by their representor"...

No such word as "representor" Sheep. Like I already said, the person the representative is representing is accountable for the actions of their representative while they are representing them. If they break treaties you are signatory to, then it is as if you have broken the treaty.[/qupte]

Ahh yes. I forgot to mention to people I have a fondness of coining my own words. It helps a lot. Like I have already said mate, I said I used the wrong word. This is kind of a moot point, hell of a good point, perhaps, I'll look into it, but not really relevant anymore.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Like I said earlier Sheep, if only you knew....well, you will soon enough.

No what. What are you going to unleash onto us. I am waiting on tenter hooks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
And BTW....why do you constantly call me "mate" or "friend"? We're neither, and your pathetic attempt to try and claim a moral high ground over me by addressing me as such is quite transparent.

Its not any attempt to claim a moral high ground. However I am not over taken with rage like you, or do I feel that enemity seems to go futher than needed. We fight in Nationstates, does this mean we would fight elsewhere? I don;t know. After all I play characters in this. What I say here isn;t necessarily always my true opinion. I roleplay. Hell I might be a bastard towards you in rp, but thats just the character. I would like to think if we ever did perchance meet, we would sit down have a coffee, and laugh about the stupid things we have done and said.

And if you really want to know, I do call everyone I meet mate, or my friend. Thats the kind of guy I am. I found it to work especially well with the females.

Archaic · June 23, 2003, 06:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
What does context matter. Sheepmania is its own entity. It is selling nukes. Not Sheepsta case closed.

Context is everything in this Sheep, and you can't avoid it no matter how you want to spin it. Sheepmania is its own entity, selling nukes. Selling Nukes on behalf of Sheepsta, meaning Sheepsta has broken its treaty obligations.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
No what. What are you going to unleash onto us. I am waiting on tenter hooks.

I am not obliged to tell you this, am I?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
Its not any attempt to claim a moral high ground. However I am not over taken with rage like you, or do I feel that enemity seems to go futher than needed. We fight in Nationstates, does this mean we would fight elsewhere? I don;t know. After all I play characters in this. What I say here isn;t necessarily always my true opinion. I roleplay. Hell I might be a bastard towards you in rp, but thats just the character. I would like to think if we ever did perchance meet, we would sit down have a coffee, and laugh about the stupid things we have done and said.

You seem to like trying to paint people with a very wide brush. "taken with rage like you, or do I feel that enemity seems to go futher than needed". These comments are things that would apply to you Sheep, not to me.

And quite frankly, yes, we would fight IRL, because you've said that Facism and state sponsored Racism aren't evil.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
And if you really want to know, I do call everyone I meet mate, or my friend. Thats the kind of guy I am. I found it to work especially well with the females.

The fact you feel constantly like you need to boast about this only reveals more about you than you'd rather let on I'd warrent.

Sheep · June 23, 2003, 06:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Context is everything in this Sheep, and you can't avoid it no matter how you want to spin it. Sheepmania is its own entity, selling nukes. Selling Nukes on behalf of Sheepsta, meaning Sheepsta has broken its treaty obligations.

What you fail to mention here is that New Sheepmania is selling its nukes, not Sheepsta's. They have just taken over Sheepsta's old clients. This is all.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Archaic
I am not obliged to tell you this, am I?[/qupte]

Not at all

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
You seem to like trying to paint people with a very wide brush. "taken with rage like you, or do I feel that enemity seems to go futher than needed". These comments are things that would apply to you Sheep, not to me.

I admit I have been brash and rude to you in the past, which I have apologised for in a pm I sent to you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
And quite frankly, yes, we would fight IRL, because you've said that Facism and state sponsored Racism aren't evil.

I said fascism isn;t inherently evil. I never said state sponsored racism wasn't Racsim is evil, I know this, anyone with half a brain knows this. Some of me best friends are of other races, and I do not think less of them because of it.

As for fascism, Mussolini up until he joined with Hitler was a stable dictator. Hitler he was a madman. He gave fascism a bad name. Fascsim however diffrent from Nazism and many people tend to overlook this. Besides the point debates aren;t fighting. I know people have diffrent opinions then me. I am willing to listen to them too. So long as you are willing to listen to mine also.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
The fact you feel constantly like you need to boast about this only reveals more about you than you'd rather let on I'd warrent.

Boast about what?

Archaic · June 23, 2003, 06:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
What you fail to mention here is that New Sheepmania is selling its nukes, not Sheepsta's. They have just taken over Sheepsta's old clients. This is all.

Because it's unimportant. They are still acting as Sheepstas representative. It doesn't matter if it was their own Nukes, or Sheepstas nukes. Indeed, it wouldn't be too farfetched to think that Sheepsta supplied New Sheepmania with those.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
I admit I have been brash and rude to you in the past, which I have apologised for in a pm I sent to you.

Any such message from you would ring hollow Sheep. You have been largely unrepentant for your actions here. The fact that you are a known liar also counts against you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
I said fascism isn;t inherently evil. I never said state sponsored racism wasn't Racsim is evil, I know this, anyone with half a brain knows this. Some of me best friends are of other races, and I do not think less of them because of it.

I posed the question to you about state sponsored racism, and you answered it isn't evil.

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Sheep
As for fascism, Mussolini up until he joined with Hitler was a stable dictator. Hitler he was a madman. He gave fascism a bad name. Fascsim however diffrent from Nazism and many people tend to overlook this.

I see you failed World History too. Mussolini was hardly a stable dictator Sheep.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
Besides the point debates aren;t fighting. I know people have diffrent opinions then me. I am willing to listen to them too. So long as you are willing to listen to mine also.

You're willing to listen to different opinions....it's just that you ignore them and proclaim that you're right, even when you're clearly wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
Boast about what?

Your supposed way with women. The fact that you seem so desperate to boast about your "exploits"...well...I think everyone knows what I'm getting at here.

Sheep · June 23, 2003, 06:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic

Because it's unimportant. They are still acting as Sheepstas representative. It doesn't matter if it was their own Nukes, or Sheepstas nukes. Indeed, it wouldn't be too farfetched to think that Sheepsta supplied New Sheepmania with those.

I think it does. Sheepsta has no real connection with New Sheepmania, and there are no provisions in the treaty allowing for Sheepsta not to give customers to New Sheepmania. New Sheepmania actually developed its own weapons. Also if you look on the message board of Black Pitt of Charr New Sheepmania has made an amendment

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Any such message from you would ring hollow Sheep. You have been largely unrepentant for your actions here. The fact that you are a known liar also counts against you.

So what have I lied about my friend. Also I find it pretty disheartning that on countless times have I extended the olive branch of peace to you only to have it slapped back into my face.

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
I posed the question to you about state sponsored racism, and you answered it isn't evil.

I musn;t of read the qestion properly then. My mistake. I reiterate state sponsored racism is bad, don't try it at home :P

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
You're willing to listen to different opinions....it's just that you ignore them and proclaim that you're right, even when you're clearly wrong.

On the contary. However I am not willing to listen to people who wont admit they are wrong. See my point?

Quote:

Originally posted by Archaic
Your supposed way with women. The fact that you seem so desperate to boast about your "exploits"...well...I think everyone knows what I'm getting at here.

Ahh yes. Well sorry if I am enjoying myself. I can;t help it its in my nature to make boasts. It always has been. Of it was annoying you so, you could of said something sooner and I can try and curb it. Anyways how did you think Jobedpet got its name?

Archaic · June 23, 2003, 07:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
I think it does. Sheepsta has no real connection with New Sheepmania, and there are no provisions in the treaty allowing for Sheepsta not to give customers to New Sheepmania. New Sheepmania actually developed its own weapons. Also if you look on the message board of Black Pitt of Charr New Sheepmania has made an amendment

Besides the fact that it's part of a military treaty, that it's got a similar name, is owned by you, and suddenly stepped in to take over your nuclear business with weapons that could easily have been provided or designed by Sheepstan military forces, yes, there's "no real connection".

New Sheepmania's statement now makes no difference. Its initial statement, before it knew its activities were being watched, does.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
So what have I lied about my friend. Also I find it pretty disheartning that on countless times have I extended the olive branch of peace to you only to have it slapped back into my face.

Your sales of Nuclear weapons, your intentions about the Nuclear Weapons, your constant Ad Hominem lies towards me in an attempt to Poison the Well, your lies about the situation between Alecrast and Sheepsta in previous conflicts, including the Protectorates Affair, your supposed degrees....

A warmonger rightfully gets an olive branch of peace slapped back into his face Sheep, because he cannot be trusted to hold by his word, just as you cannot be trusted.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
I musn;t of read the qestion properly then. My mistake. I reiterate state sponsored racism is bad, don't try it at home :P

You only back down now because it's been brought into the public eye. Your statements about Facism, oddly enough, still stand. Facism is still evil Sheep, and you didn't counter that except to use a No true Scotsman fallacy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
On the contary. However I am not willing to listen to people who wont admit they are wrong. See my point?

See, now that's the problem. You think you're right, even though we've time and again destroyed your arguements. And then you scurry off, don't finish the debate, and then say the same falsehoods later as if the original debate never happened.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sheep
Ahh yes. Well sorry if I am enjoying myself. I can;t help it its in my nature to make boasts. It always has been. Of it was annoying you so, you could of said something sooner and I can try and curb it. Anyways how did you think Jobedpet got its name?

Annoying? Hardly. It's amusing that you feel the need to boast so much. It only reveals your insecurities. And given the fact you're a known liar to boot....