To hurry or not to hurry?

Maniac · June 13, 2003, 09:41

We now have 36 ec in cash, and we also have two bases which are producing formers and have accumulated more ten minerals. We have the possibility to hurry those productions for 16 ec (Pi Square) and 19 ec (Logic Loop).
Of course we could also switch to Planned in two years: we are only four ec short of having the required 40 ec.
Or we could save our cash for later use.
What should we do? Please discuss and vote.

I put the vote limit on five days.

Corellion · June 13, 2003, 09:47

Hmm... this is a puzzler. Planned will definitely have growth and mineral advantages, while the formers will help us to improve our infrastructure. I'll put forth a tentative vote for planned, but will hold off any official vote until I hear more opinions.

Cedayon · June 13, 2003, 10:49

Planned. Asap.

Googlie · June 13, 2003, 12:05

Plus, Planned's +1 industry will prolly shave a turn off the formers' time-to-completion

(And in the meantime you might pop a pod that gives a production completion bonus)

G.

DeathByTheSword · June 13, 2003, 13:10

I agree...planned....btw....googlie...isnt it kinda sorta illigal for you to give 'advice'.........dont care about it just curious!

Maniac · June 13, 2003, 14:15

Googlie just loves the CyCon!

Or perhaps we are doing so bad compared to the other factions so he is helping us a hand to keep the game competitive.

Googlie · June 13, 2003, 17:07

It'd be illegal if I divulged that I'd played ahead and, say, changed the build to a rec commons and popped a pod which finished the commons in 1 turn

But I see my role vis-a-vis the private forums to be a resource that can suggest alternatives, do scenario testing if needed (not on this map or game set-up though) and generally contribute general tips and hints that I have used or seen work in other games.

Sometimes a pretty good knowledge of the scenario editor makes it a lot quicker for me to give the odds, say, of a disciplined CC Impact rover winning an attack on a green Believer ECM Plasma defender in a perim defense base - sure, anyone can do it, but I've done literally hundreds of these type of scenario checks, so can prolly do them quicker.

Some of the other factions have used me already in this way, and I see it as OK as long as I don't "step over the line" and give specific in-game advice based on what I know as CMN

G. (who loves all the factions equally - even the "hard to love" ones)

Corellion · June 13, 2003, 18:48

You just love us a little more equally, right?

Drogue · June 13, 2003, 19:27

Shouldn't this be multiple choice for the hurrying. I vote Planned, so it doesn't matter, but we can rush all 3 soon IIRC. Should we go planned, or wait a few turns for FM and change then?

Maniac · June 14, 2003, 07:40

Well since the CP in Poly Prime is almost complete, I found it pointless to include it in the poll. This is meant as a short term poll after all.
"Short term poll" is the same reason I didn't include FM either. I guess there should be a seperate SE poll for that.

DeathByTheSword · June 14, 2003, 08:41

i would like to run planned for a while before switching to FM...i want to have to big bases before we go FM...

Drogue · June 14, 2003, 11:46

Maniac: I didn't mean including that, I meant having multiple choice, since people may want to rush Logic Loop and Pi Square production.

Maniac · June 14, 2003, 16:37

Ah I see. Well, that's why I included the voting option "Hurry both bases' production" in the poll.

Drogue · June 14, 2003, 19:22

Sorry

Googlie · June 16, 2003, 19:45

Game implications of SE Choices:

Currently, as the Cyborgs, you are:
+2 efficiency; -1 growth; +2 research

If that southern scout has discovered the Manifold Nexus, the you will be +1 Planet as soon as a base encompasses part of it

Planned

with its -2 efficiency, neutralizes your inbuilt +2, but that can be restored as soon as you go democratic

Its +2 growth moves you into the positive, and again, with Dem, and its +2 growth, would net you at +3 - not enough to pop-boom with creches (until you get and become Eudaimonic) so you'll need GAs to rapidly expand poop-wise

But the +1 Industry gives you a 90% unit complete ratio (with another 10% bonus if you moved to Wealth at some time. Eudo gives another +2 industry, so if eventually you ran Dem/Planned/wealth/Eudo you'd be:

+2 Efficiency
-4 Morale
+1 Planet (assuming it's the Nexus to the south)
+5 Growth
+4 Industry
+2 Research
+3 Econ
-2 Support
with the others being at the neutral 0 level

That's a good builder/expansion model (although the expansion comes late, with level 12 tech (Eudaimonia)

The alternatives would include:

Dem/Planned/Knowledge/Cybernetic:

+5 Efficiency
+3 Planet (assuming it's the Nexus to the south)
-2 Probe
+3 Growth
(as the CC, immune to the -3 Police effect of Cybernetic)
+1 Industry
+6 Research
-2 Support
with the others being at the neutral 0 level

A good research model with its key tech (Cybernetic) coming earlier at level 10

I've never seen FM as being of any benefit to the Consciousness

Democratic & Planned seem to be keys to running the CC's

Comments?

G

Maniac · June 16, 2003, 19:56

Quote:

Comments?

Yes.

First please remember that the Research bonus is capped off at +5.

So it would be ineffficient to go Knowledge and Cybernetic at the same time.

Also I don't get why you discard FM so easily. FM seems to me just as useful for the CyCon as for about any other faction. It can also be justified in RPG terms for us. I made a start with that in the philosophy thread from a few weeks back.

Googlie · June 16, 2003, 21:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Maniac
First please remember that the Research bonus is capped off at +5.

So it would be ineffficient to go Knowledge and Cybernetic at the same time.

But that's the difference between a 40% boost in research vewrsus a 50% (capped) boost - not insignificant when your lab points are in the 3 to 5 thousand range by late game

Quote:

Also I don't get why you discard FM so easily. FM seems to me just as useful for the CyCon as for about any other faction. It can also be justified in RPG terms for us. I made a start with that in the philosophy thread from a few weeks back.

I guess I never found the extra +1 energy per square a good trade off for the -3 planet and -5 police in the early game (where Planned is such an appealing alternative to a growth starved faction - research rate is rarely a problem, but growth and industry often are)

-3 planet is "wanton ecological disruption", which spawns mindworms galore eventually, with a minimal probability of capturing one. This is mitigated slightly if indeed it's the Manifold Nexus to the south.

But, the -5 police can be neutralized with all the drone-relieving SP's and the planetary disruption by the ecology SP's, but I'd think the circumstances would have to be extraordinary for me to go that way.

Planned seems just more efficient (pun intended) for the Consciousness

But, hey - I'm just spouting the statistics and tables from the manual and the Prima Guide .....

(and revelling in my new unbanned status)

G, the

Corellion · June 16, 2003, 22:35

I can't speak as authoritatively as Googlie, as I've rarely played the CyCon against other human opponents, but from my limited experience, I'd have to agree with him. The FM doesn't provide enough of a benefit. As a matter of fact, given that I usually play VERY long games, my empire is gigantic by the end. At that point, I find that Green is actually the best economic model to go by (and +9 efficiency is great, I barely lose any energy at all).

Drogue · June 17, 2003, 06:09

Actually, as Archaic argues a lot, the -3 Planet isn't such a bad thing at all. ED early in the game, when pops release worms at most, mean that the clean mineral level is raised so that we can rpoduce more towards the end. Pop booms are not always a bad thing. Besides, the +1 energy per square with FM can halve research time in the early-mid game. Green at the end is the best, and Planned when growing, but FM for the mid game is very important IMHO, especially if we want to out tech the PUT. I propose that if we find the PUT, we change to Planned and go to war, using probes, and take their bases for tech steal. If we don't, we need to keep our tecjh close to theirs, and so FM is needed. That is my opinion for the mid game. Planned for war, FM for peace, Green for the late game when we need efficiency.

Cedayon · June 17, 2003, 10:56

FM isn't an all-powerful choice, but it has its place... that place is the late-early and mid game (more during peacetime, as the Prime Function mentioned).

Maniac · June 17, 2003, 12:13

Quote:

I guess I never found the extra +1 energy per square a good trade off for the -3 planet and -5 police in the early game

In the early game I agree with you of course. But since you included Cybernetic/Eudaimonia, I assumed you were talking mid-end-game.

Drogue · June 17, 2003, 12:47

Personally, because it is our ideal, I think to RP we have to choose Cybernetic. I laugh at the Hive trying to be democratic, or if the PUT chose Power. If Cybernetic isn't available then iot could be argued, but we are the CyCon, Cybernetic is our dream and goal!

Corellion · June 18, 2003, 16:09

Dream? It is the only logical end to the development of an advanced society!

DeathByTheSword · June 18, 2003, 17:24

we dont have to worry about the -3 planet anymore...it will be -2 with the manifold....or did somebody already said that?

Googlie · June 18, 2003, 20:03

Assuming you don't get beaten by another faction to building a base there (which you need to get its +1 Planet bonus)

Corellion · June 18, 2003, 20:15

Question: How much of the Manifold needs to be within our territory to get the bonus, because we currently hold a section within our territory. Do we have to have the entire thing?

Either Googlie is enjoying trying to torment us, or we may be in for some early game faction-meeting.

Googlie · June 18, 2003, 23:21

Any part of the Nexus has to be within a base'sradius - having it in your territory isn't enough (as the border would shift if another faction built outside it, but closer to it than your nearest base

So you need to get AP's Colony Pod down there and build (at least in 68:78, NE of where the scout currently is) - that'd give the +1 Planet

G.

Googlie · June 18, 2003, 23:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Corellion
Either Googlie is enjoying trying to torment us, or we may be in for some early game faction-meeting.

Well, in one of the early FAQ's I said that I tried to give the factions 20 turns or so before they bumped into one another, subject always to the unpredictable AI - or the Pirates heading off in unexpected directions (I assume that they'll explore around their start position first before haring off on a beeline to the end of the world)

But the odd popping of an earthquake can unexpectedly link landmasses where 2 scouts have been staring into the fog across a channel, blind to each other's presence and suddenly an earthquake pops and there they are - one step and "oops, sorry" as they bump into each other.

I believe that there have been 2 podpopped earthquakes since the game began

(And I do enjoy tormenting all the factions - especially when I see the AI being taken for patsies)

G.

Corellion · June 19, 2003, 01:34

Oh, but what a cruel and awful God you are, yet also so kind. You are one to be feared, yet also revered without fear, and to be cursed, but also embraced as the all-powerful being you are. You are truly one of contradictions... you cruel sadistic nut

Googlie · June 19, 2003, 02:32

ROFLOL

G

GLIE