Why Capitalists are Capitalists... - Page 14

GePap · June 16, 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
"You have a right to haveand own pirvate porperty: none said you have a right to keep it."

Redefining age-old words again, are we? What is it with you guys?

Quote:

Main Entry: 2own
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 a : to have or hold as property : POSSESS b : to have power over : CONTROL

So, we have the right to "own" something but we don't have the right to "have" it?

Hmmm.. lets say you make an investement with your property. The investement was wrong, your risk failed, you lose it. Is that loss of possesion wrong? Would any of you think it wrong?

So case b. You are incapable personally or by hiring someone to protect a good you own, so somone takes it. Is your weakenss or stupidity to be rewarded in this situation?

Imran Siddiqui · June 16, 2003, 16:27

Quote:

Students can work together to learn probably better than they would learn from a teacher especially with the new technology.

I'd love to see that classroom!

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:27

Gepap,

You nailed it. Stealing is beneficial to the individual and they promote the system that benefits the individual.

DinoDoc · June 16, 2003, 16:28

This thread just gets wierder as it goes along. Though I am tempted to take the computer(s) away from the people who don't believe they have the right to keep private property.

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:29

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
It's idiotic thinking like this that forces me to deal with crap systems like Mallard.

Are you a teacher?

Velociryx · June 16, 2003, 16:30

Because might does not make right.

We punish theivery because the thief did nothing to create or enhance the value of that which is stolen. All the theif did was prove that posession is 9/10th's of the law.

Same with civic equality. Might does not make right. It's as simple as that.

Civic equality establishes that everyone has the right to own property, and that his/her property is protected.

What you DO with that property....how you use it to create wealth for yourself....that's up to you. Your choice. Your decision.

Make a good decision, work hard at it, and the market will reward you with money.

Make a poor decision or choose not to work at it, and the market will deny you money.

Making good decisions and working hard come with a built in reward. Betterment. The downside is that you don't have as much free time to enjoy your betterment until you have amassed a fortune of sufficient size that you can stop working altogether.

Electing not to play the game comes with its own rewards too....more free time. It carries with it the downside that, although you are swimming in free time, you lack the money to do anything with it, and comes with the disadvantage that you are at the mercy of those with more, relying on charity and government subsidy to get you by.

-=Vel=-

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
This thread just gets wierder as it goes along. Though I am tempted to take the computer(s) away from the people who don't believe they have the right to keep private property.

I don't think anyone is against the ownership of personal property. I'm not sharing my toothbrush with you.

DinoDoc · June 16, 2003, 16:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious
Are you a teacher?

I'm a student.

GePap · June 16, 2003, 16:31

I am trying to make a case in the negative. People in this thread are ready to denounce one system becuase according to them is based on envy, greed, sloth and anger and praise another system built on envy, greed, lust, pride and gluttony.

I simply find something just a bit odd in that.

DinoDoc · June 16, 2003, 16:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious
I'm not sharing my toothbrush with you.

Why the hell not? It's not like you believe you have the right to keep it. Or am I confusing you with GePap?

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Because might does not make right.

Does

JohnT · June 16, 2003, 16:34

And that, in the end, is the Communist justification for suppression of the individual. "I have the gun and you don't, therefore I'm right."

And you really don't see how monsterous that is? Really?

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Or am I confusing you with GePap?

Maybe, I'm not against private ownership just the private ownership of the means of production.

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:37

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
And that, in the end, is the Communist justification for suppression of the individual. "I have the gun and you don't, therefore I'm right."

And you really don't see how monsterous that is? Really?

It's the same way the capitalist system is justified.

Velociryx · June 16, 2003, 16:37

Thank you, Kid.

That ended the debate for me.

Capitalists win.

Communism, per the chief debator for the other side, IS a bully's system where might makes right, and the price for economic marginality is the subversion of self.

-=Vel=-

JohnT · June 16, 2003, 16:37

Kid, you are reaching.

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'm a student.

Ah, and you don't like group work. Figures

Velociryx · June 16, 2003, 16:40

So, Kid, if you're not against private ownership, answer me this:

Should I be able to transfer the deed and title to my own stuff to my children?

-=Vel=-

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Communism, per the chief debator for the other side, IS a bully's system where might makes right, and the price for economic marginality is the subversion of self.

-=Vel=-

It's called maintaining order

DinoDoc · June 16, 2003, 16:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious
Ah, and you don't like group work. Figures

I pay to have someone teach the class. Not be assigned work by a computer.

Imran Siddiqui · June 16, 2003, 16:40

Quote:

lets say you make an investement with your property. The investement was wrong, your risk failed, you lose it. Is that loss of possesion wrong?

How is that losing your property? For example, if you buy land and the value goes down... you traded your money (property A) for the land (property B). The value of that land (property B) went down and you exchanged it for a lower value of money (property C).

So where did you lose property? All I see is that you exchanged A for B and then B for C. You didn't lose any property.

GePap · June 16, 2003, 16:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Because might does not make right.

What about intelligence. Much theft has nothign to dow ith mgiht but brains: think of cons, or somethinglike enron.

Quote:

We punish theivery because the thief did nothing to create or enhance the value of that which is stolen. All the theif did was prove that posession is 9/10th's of the law.

And neither does having in in your house. How much wealth did the guys at Enron create? As they inflated the price of thier stock, in increased the prices of opthers, and people willingly bought. A ot of wealth was created with that. If you buy a bike for recreation, you won;t do anymore economic good with it than a guy who steals it from you to do the same. Some crime has no economic beenfit (just as some "honest work" doens;t either), but that is not a general truth.

Quote:

Same with civic equality. Might does not make right. It's as simple as that.

And as above, what about intellect and ambition, two things you do seem to think matter a great deal.

Quote:

Civic equality establishes that everyone has the right to own property, and that his/her property is protected.

Why is portection form others more valuable than form yourself? Most capitalits would be against some sort of guaranteed returns for investors, so they do not become poor. So society can;t portect you from yourself but yes from others who might be brighetr than you? (whether they do so legally or illegally)

Quote:

What you DO with that property....how you use it to create wealth for yourself....that's up to you. Your choice. Your decision.

And perhaps my decsion to work to take it from someone else?

Quote:

Make a good decision, work hard at it, and the market will reward you with money.

Make a poor decision or choose not to work at it, and the market will deny you money.

Well, if by good you mean mot only intelliegent but perhapsd also timely or popular, then yeas, i agree.

Quote:

Making good decisions and working hard come with a built in reward. Betterment. The downside is that you don't have as much free time to enjoy your betterment until you have amassed a fortune of sufficient size that you can stop working altogether.

And betterment need not come with wealth. Monsk surely better themsleves thorugh honest work, without really adding a penny to the overall economy.

Quote:

Electing not to play the game comes with its own rewards too....more free time. It carries with it the downside that, although you are swimming in free time, you lack the money to do anything with it, and comes with the disadvantage that you are at the mercy of those with more, relying on charity and government subsidy to get you by.

-=Vel=-

And what about workign to change the game? So that what you like to do becomes the winning ciscumstance. You see, I do think it is all just a game. The question is, does the game have some inherent value to it, or is it "just a game"?

Kidicious · June 16, 2003, 16:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
So, Kid, if you're not against private ownership, answer me this:

Should I be able to transfer the deed and title to my own stuff to my children?

-=Vel=-

As long as it is not capital used for production which allows you to make profit, rent or interest.

JohnT · June 16, 2003, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

It's called maintaining order

And you have to maintain order because?

Oh, yeah: the people hate you and your ideology. But that's their problem, isn't it, the ungrateful snots.

Kid, has the idea that the purpose of debate is to persuade ever occurred to you? Threatening people (or saying "I have to threaten people to make my Utopia work") doesn't really get people on your side. Oh, you might compel them for a while, but in the end you will always lose.

GePap · June 16, 2003, 16:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Quote:

lets say you make an investement with your property. The investement was wrong, your risk failed, you lose it. Is that loss of possesion wrong?

How is that losing your property? For example, if you buy land and the value goes down... you traded your money (property A) for the land (property B). The value of that land (property B) went down and you exchanged it for a lower value of money (property C).

So where did you lose property? All I see is that you exchanged A for B and then B for C. You didn't lose any property.

And that only applies to real estate. If you buy stock at $50 dollars and then the company goes bust and the stock stops being traded permanently at $.01, you lost $49.01 per share.Or as you might say: you traded 50 bucks per share for 1 cent per share, where did you lose money on that?

JohnT · June 16, 2003, 16:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

As long as it is not capital used for production which allows you to make profit, rent or interest.

But what about the price appreciation on the house? What if the kids decide to rent the house a year after Vels untimely death?

Sorry, Vel, but your kids are SOL.

Flare · June 16, 2003, 16:45

Yes it does too, Velociryx! "Might makes Right!" Santiago, Miriam, & Yang all say so! so does any momentum player. ~Blushes~ Opps, wrong thing to post in this thread.

But honestly, an "evolved" person thinks beyond using strenght to make their way. They prefer to use their brains or ability to get ahead (hopefully NOT at the expense of another person.) I prefer to earn my way. I get the personal satisfaction from having accomplished that. Having said that, I would not turn down winning the lottery.

My personal belief is that one should try to help people that are down that could HONESTLY use the help & who deserve the help. ~shugs~ Life has handed me many blessings & many lumps. I have been helped out a lot by many people. Hell, even Vel is nice to me every so often!

Just my $0.02 worth.

P.S. - Vel. You know you are a Redneck if the KKK throws you out for being a "bigot"!

DinoDoc · June 16, 2003, 16:46

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
where did you lose money on that?

Now you're switching terms on us.

JohnT · June 16, 2003, 16:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

Does

Whoo-hoo! Kid approves US policy re: Iraq!

JohnT · June 16, 2003, 16:49

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Now you're switching terms on us.

A favorite tactic of theirs as I've noted a few times in this thread.

Albert, this one will likely go to 500. Is that a first time for one of your threads?