Beating the Toughest AI

[Aginor]

Originally posted by la0tsu

If you read my thread entitled "Bantu Boom", you will see that my opening move is to research Civ1 and immediately upon completion build those two cities.

Interesting...I go with the standard build order for most civs: Civics1 + 3 Citizens, 2 Farms, 2 Citizens for 5 Woodcutters, Science 1 (ruins bonuses) once I hit 120 Wood again...Citizen. This cleans me out on both resources, and I wait a few seconds and send off two Woodcutters to build City2, replacing them as I am able.

City2 goes up fast with 2 workers, and typically I send them off immediately to City3. Waiting a bit permits me to scope out City3 in particular to make sure I get a solid location for it...in my experience as long as your capital is decent with solid woods and at least a 5-Citizen mountain you can subspecialize City2 and 3 (one wood/farms, other metal) and use City4 to cover the rest of your basic needs, which makes exploration and boundary pushing with Temples less important early.

However, by the time I'm ready to begin conquest, I have more resources than I can reasonably spend, so the added pop cap becomes the most important factor at that stage.

Agreed, but I am finding as I play with other nations that the boom really gets rolling much later, that the 2-3 minute turn advantage with Bantu is just really strong, and that I don't want to cede part of that back by building that Wonder. I want to get the Statue ASAP, as it drives my Cataphract strategy, and building the Colossus slows me down by a minute or so unless I am just rolling in money, timber, and spare citizens early.

That said I may consider starting to throw it up right after Terra Cotta in Medieval, which is an approach I've never taken. After all, at that point I've got Construction1 and a Wonder work force of 4+ laborers...

It should also be noted that my perspective is that of a perfectionist.

You will find that my tendencies lie along the same lines, but my objective is a sudden crushing military advantage rather than crushing resource advantage in the late game. I back up the initial invasion by capping out resources, but it's a #2 priority for me...the most important thing is buying as many cheap Cataphracts as possible and transforming them into 20-30 Tanks, which is just flat out devastating...the Terra Cotta Riflemen can help take care of any Anti-Tank units, and with air power a non-factor until Modern, if you supply some artillery backup then victim #1 stands no chance...

I would recommend you read the Bantu Boom thread to have a comprehensive view of my MO.

I'll take a look at it - must have missed it initially, I'll try and revive it.


As for bad habits generated by playing 'D' until Industrial, the problem with that is that you're failing to disrupt the opponent's production, which will come back to haunt you against a more competent human general that will not squander his resources on useless units. If you raid, you can often force the opposition to use more resources defending the raid than you invest attacking AND shut down the production of a city for the duration of the raid, which is pretty strong.

I'm with Grond on the necessity of a fast Commerce3 against Toughest, as well as the fact that this is ONLY smart against the comp, which just flat doesn't attack after Classical until Gunpowder in most games...but let's face it, Catapults suck . In the games where I've stolen Versailles I've found it to be VERY nice as you can just keep rolling on with the same army rather than waiting for resupply from way back in your lines, but I suspect that it is much better for a nation that has pop cap issues and simply cannot afford to field as many units.

Also, I suspect that a lot of us are breaking down the AI because we are not RTSers at heart and use 'P' quite a bit...I've never scored much over 30 on speed, and in an ugly game I'll chalk up 20-25. Learning my way around hotkeys now so I can try MP.

No games last night, it was my anniversary (3rd) and I do NOT play strategy games well with a head full of champagne. I'll try the Brits again, and I'll let you know the results.

[solo]

Happy Anniversary Aginor!

I agree on many points, and am also doing some to learn the hotkeys and start playing without so many pauses, which I tried during the last part of my East Indies game as the Brits. It's hard to remember to continue research and builds while absorbed in a big battle though! I had a lot of unspent resources by the end of the game!

I finished my Toughest game with the Brits on the East Indies map and the headstart into Industrial described in my last post was all that was needed. It was 4 minutes before any of the AI joined me, but by that time I had scouted out my first target, Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital, while building up an invasion force on Glasgow’s island.

The attack was nothing fancy. First, a V2 was used to take out a tower. Then some helos were sent out to create a diversion, while a group of special forces trotted in next to Tenochtitlan to reduce the city’s hit points. The main army followed, protected by a carrier and some subs, crossing over to the Aztec island and arriving in time to capture and hold the Aztec capital. (I think the loooong carrier was more of a hindrance than a help, since it caused pathing problems for many of the transports)

By the time Tenochtitlan was assimilated, I had advanced to Information and had all of the latest weapons. This big technology lead assured success, and since the wonder timer was started by captured Aztec wonders, I decided to end this game early by bombing the Japanese wonders that were under construction. There was no point continuing conquest when it was going to be this easy.

The game stats had two surprises:

1) None of the AI built a fort. I thought that was odd, but maybe they just don’t do this on island maps. Anyways, this gave me a big edge.

2) I collected the most timber! I usually emphasize wood collection, but this was the first game in Toughest where I was able to outdo the AI in collecting any resource besides knowledge.

One game may not prove anything, but it appears that the AI are quite handicapped on island maps. This game was easy compared to previous ones played on land, so I will go back to a land map again as the Brits for more masochistic pleasures.

Another thing worth mentioning is that the Porcelain Tower’s 200% benefit applies to the initial amounts of food, wood or whatever is offered. For example, the PT only added 20 food to a special starting out at 10, even though I had increased the original 10 food to 15 with granary research. I also noticed that it does nothing to improve fish. Maybe this wonder should be renamed the Piddly Tower, considering its late arrival, high price and for all the good it does. I don’t see fast shipbuilding as a benefit either. Need more ships quickly? Add another dock or two, instead. It will be many moons and another game without difficulties before I build this wonder again.

Another thing I've noticed is that the last three ages at normal research speed zip by too quickly after knowledge has been maxed out. The expensive and slower speeds provide much better play during the last three ages.

Attached is the replay of the last part of my game.

[Aginor]

Thanks solo, I appreciate the congrats.

Got smoked as the Brits again, this time in Gunpowder...GOD I suck lol.

Some thoughts:
1) The vaunted Brit Taxation bonuses are not all that until Social Contract...then they are quite strong.
2) Don't try a goofy research order aimed at getting to 250 wood and selling the excess kids...it doesn't work, you lag behind in tech badly and never recover.
3) Bantu research order just won't work with the Brits. Looks to me like you need to get Medieval and Science3 ASAP for Granaries, Lumber Mills, smelters, and upgrades so you don't overbuild Farms and Woodcutters, and so you can slam up Smelters ASAP.
4) You have GOT to get decent fishing going early as the Brits to fuel Archers or you are toast.

Leaning more and more towards the Incans as a civ that can address my early poverty issues. But now I feel like I HAVE to figure out the Brits

I've outcollected the AI in Oil a few times, managed to outcollect Wealth and Oil and Knowledge once, that's about it.

The Porcelain Tower is a souped up Lighthouse, which means it still stinks...

Going to bed early, I'll look at the replay over the weekend. And MAYBE I'll manage to not get whooped again.

[Out4Blood]

Interesting...I go with the standard build order for most civs: Civics1 + 3 Citizens, 2 Farms, 2 Citizens for 5 Woodcutters, Science 1 (ruins bonuses)

My build order is different. I want to maximize the production in the beginning. IMO, as British, the critical aspect is max food, then max out wood, then max out food again.

So I start the game with VQ, then use the 2 cutters to drop 2 new farms and send all new villagers to wood. If I have crappy wood spot, I'll build a second right there. After the first 2 farms are built, I'll wait til 120 wood and research science as my first tech. There is no hurry on research, since it is not critical path. (Note: if crappy wood spot, I'll skip science research and go civic/commerce, because wood becomes more of a factor.) Food is critical path (for villagers and the civic/commerce techs) and wood is only needed for getting farms up. The science then makes subsequent techs cheaper, so might as well research it first. Dropping an early city actually sets me back and makes it slower than normal.

Then I drop a new city, and get to +90/+100 (cap is +87) on each before researching commerce. With this build order for British, I am usually able to keep pace or even lead the AI on resources - at least in the early game.

The key to British is to REALLY expand the territory. The taxation bonus is only useful if you have a lot of territory. Try to never build near the edge of the map. You cut in half the range of your city. I build out, even if it is not near resources, to maximize the area of my territory.

Some micro tricks for defeating AI armies...
Garrison a couple archers to max the building's firepower bonus, then fill the rest with slingers. When they attack, set rally point for building away from their ranged troops. Exit the slingers, who fire on the hoplites. The hoplites then attack and get chewed up by the archers. Regarrison before losing any units. Rinse and repeat. You can do the same with the archers which are even better. But archers die fast to slingers, so be careful.

[Grond]

Do counter bonuses apply to garrisonned units or do buildings have their own damage type?

[solo]

I started a new game as the Brits and was given the Old World land map, so here goes!

My scout found the Eqyptians first, who were booming, so I decided to target them with an early rush. I very much agree with Out4Blood about how the Brits need to expand their borders quickly to make the most out of double taxation.

The rushed worked, and with it came no less than 4 Egyptian cities, which when added to two of my own, gave me "control" of over 40% of the map. However, this may not last too long, since my own development was interrupted by an almost successful Korean rush of my own capital a little before I had reduced Eqypt's.

The other AI are the Germans. They are definitely booming, since they have not attacked me yet. This nixes my theory about them being an aggressive, rushing civ in Toughest. My newest theory is that either a booming or rushing script is chosen by chance for each AI at the beginning of the game. Later on, I think they are cut loose from the script, my guess being that this happens sometime after Gunpowder.

Right now the Germans are way ahead in production and were into Gunpowder before I hit Medieval. This does not augur well for my extended and feeble empire, over which the sun may be setting soon when I have a chance to continue the game. However, so far this is my most promising Brit start on a land map.

[Grond]

While I love the Brit commerce limit I think their real power lies in taxation. I find it ineffecient to max out the British commerce limit at all times. I'm usually halfway between the standard limit and the British limit. However the taxation is just huge. You can max out scholars very fast and make more scholars than other civs if you want. If you don't make liberal use of the market you are forgoing Britains biggest advantage. The key is to keep the market tab open so you can constantly monitor the market prices. Food rarely drops too far so I only buy it when really necessary however you will often see times when the price for timber and iron dips considerably. I will buy huge amounts at that time. The other thing the British can do is make tons of Heavy Knights in Gunpowder and Enlightenment. Iron often drops to 20 around that time for some reason. Then when you reach Industrial buy some Oil and upgrade all those Knights to Light Tanks. In every game where I was able to do that I dealt the AI a fatal blow shortly thereafter.

[FireWall]

I'm new to the game, and can't win at Moderate, so I really appreciate this discussion. Maybe now I will win! Thanks everyone, and especially Aginor.

[solo]

Yes, that extra wealth from taxation really lets the British take over later in the game, but it takes a while for this benefit to materialize.

I have been trying to figure out the criteria used by the AI on when and who to attack. So far it looks to me that if they are scripted for an early rush they will build a barracks immediately and then pump out a slinger and 4 hoplites. Once this team is assembled they always seem to go after the civ with the lowest ranking, which at that stage of a game is usually the human player. Proximity, prior contact, etc. do no seem to matter. This might explain why Aginor and myself have seen AI rushes coming from the civ located way across the map.

Later on, I believe a similar process is at work. Once an AI has built up an attacking force appropriate for the current age, it bases its decision to attack on who has the lowest ranking. Again, the simultaneous attacks we've experienced in Toughest games can be explained by this, since they usually occur early when we are rated weakest.

Now in games where I have not been in last place, I've not been attacked even when I felt I was vulnerable. For example, after a successful rush and assimilation, the gains in territory, buildings, commodities, etc. will often put me into 2nd or first place, which lessens my chances of being a target, even though at this point I would be quite vulnerable if one did occur.

After continuing the game described above a little further, I found myself in second place behind the Germans, but well ahead of the Koreans. I have been expecting a German attack, but they are already in Enlightment, and nothing has happened yet, which leads me to believe that their first "Gunpowder" attack was aimed at the weaker Koreans.

It will take more close observation of relative power rankings to see if this theory holds up, but it explains what I have noticed so far in Toughest games.

[FireWall]

That is a very interesting observation, and as far as my games are concerned, it appears to be entirely accurate. I am always attacked by the AI when my score is low, even if I'm well prepared and able to fend off the attack with ease. However, if my score is higher than someone else's score (which isn't often ), that person is attacked and I'm left unharmed, even if I am particularly vulnerable.

[solo]

Thanks, FireWall for that confirmation. I think there may be other things that trigger AI attacks, too, such as attacking them first or spending resources on a wonder, but when they are just sitting around wondering who to go after, I think game rankings determine who their target will be.

I continued my land map Brits game. The Germans built up quite a lead and finally attacked Whitby, my city closest to their border, soon after I researched Gunpowder. I just managed to update my siege weapons in time to hold him off.

After this there was a brief pause, allowing me to quickly take out a Korean city under construction that was threatening to encroach on my diamonds merchant.

After this was done the Germans were back for more fun and games, which continued for the rest of the game. They had a big edge, so the first few battles were defensive ones, where they were able to reduce Whitby a few times, but never were able to follow up and capture it. They took a lot of losses which allowed me to catch up quite a bit and actually get into Industrial first, saving up resources that were needed to rush the Statue of Liberty for unit upgrades.

The Germans followed quickly into Industrial, bought a bunch of tanks and went after my capital with them. Things were not looking too good, but this raid was made without supply, and attrition along with my beat up and minimal army was enough to hold them off.

During this action, the Koreans decided to attack one of my Eqyptian cities, too. There was nothing I could do about this, except fortify the other cities in the area that were not under attack yet. So the Koreans took El-Armarna, but that did not hurt as it was a small city without any improvements.

By that time, SoL was completed and my problems were solved, since I could start mass producing tanks and aircraft while the Terra Cotta kept pumping out up-to-date infantry. SoL also made quick work of the expensive job of updating all my Terra Cotta slingers (yes, they were all still slingers hiding in cities, forts and towers) into more modern infantry.

The Germans were still strong and beat me into the Modern Age by a few minutes (Info Age too, a bit later), which made them good for one more big assault on Whitby. They took out its fort and one of its towers, but I played defensively until catching up in tech and while building up my armor corps and air force.

After that it was finally on to the offensive. I attacked Hamburg first, their nearest city, using bombers and artillery, and bv the time it was reduced I finally had a good sized army and went in and captured the city. From then on it was a similar process with two more cities, during which I built Supercollider and World Government. After taking the third German city the instant assimilation triggered a victory.

Well, I've finally got a land map win as the Brits, after several previous games where I had been stomped by the AI, instead. I think I would like to try this again on another land map, but not open with a rush as I did in this game, just to compare which way of playing the opening with the Brits is best. It takes a while, but their commerce bonus pays off eventually.

Attached is a replay of the last half of this game.

[Grond]

I really think the British are the strongest Civ for taking on the AI. Once that third city is up the gold starts rolling in and your getting more resources thanks to the commerce limit. If you get a decent sized lake you can get enough fishing boats to allow you to pump some archers early and forego scholars until your third city is up and you get taxation. After that you can make scholars so fast that you will catch up in no time in research and probably get to 28 scholars first. British archers plus some garrisonned slingers will stop any early rush and those archers will get upgraded for free plus your towers and forts have extra range. The British get their other really handy unique right when I'm ready to go on the offensve which is the Highlander. By the time they are upgraded to Black Watch I'm usually handing the AI his hat. While none of those abilities by themselves is particularly devastating when added together they make for a very formidable Civ.

[tetleytea]

I've beaten Toughest with Russians, just as long as AI doesn't rush too hard. Get a quick Fortress up, go hard Spies early. Bribe like mad. Russian Spies aren't just half-price--they have a significantly higher life expectancy, so they're like way cheap.

Meanwhile, tech up to Modern. By the time you hit Modern, you rule the map, with all your UU's.

Seems to work better on water maps, since early on the AI seems to love wasting all his ships on your coastal fortresses.

[solo]

Grond,

The British are good, but I think you have to be patient for their advantages to pay off. After an “easy” win on a water map, and another win following a successful opening rush on a land map, I’ve tried a few more games on land maps without trying an opening rush, and still find it tough going in the early game. In two subsequent games where I expanded to 3 cities quickly, I was attacked early and often and ended up losing a city early and losing both games. On my third try, I played it a bit more conservatively, making sure of good defenses before expanding further. This put me further behind early on, but I hung in there and was able to manage a win later.

Tetleytea,

Nice going on your Toughest win. I have not tried the Russians, yet, but am working my way through the civs while playing on the Toughest level. I’ll look forward to using those Russian spies and some of their other UU’s. Their attrition bonus should help very much in the beginning of the game, where the human player needs the most help when playing at this level.

Once I get the hang of how to play a civ, I move on to the next. I found water maps to be much easier on Toughest than land maps. Some more details of my successful game as the Brits follow:

In this 4 player survival game in Toughest, I was given the Amazon Rainforest map and had the Germans, Spanish and the Japanese as opponents. Of the AI, the Germans turned out to be the strongest, as they have been in several other games where they appeared, so I’m looking forward to playing this civ myself later.

I played a conservative opening, and decided to research attrition earlier which meant a tower near my second city very quickly. This was followed by a barracks fairly soon, which built some archers for early defense. Before starting my third city I built a tower in that area and put an archer in it. The Germans were booming and romped way ahead, almost doubling my point score, and were the first to attack, but this was handled very easily with attrition, the tower and archers.

There was only one other attack against me in the first half of the game, coming from Spanish, who were closest to my third city. They were able to destroy my tower, but wasted themselves away while making this attack. The city was never in any real danger.

Following this, I built a fort in between my second and third cities and which combined with the Amazon terrain to give me a compact and easily defendable corner of the map. I think that turtling in a corner presented the AI with better opportunites to go after each other. The Germans and the Spanish had expanded rapidly towards the middle of the map, and this cut me off from any contact with the Japanese fairly early.

After the game was completed and when I was viewing the replay with the map revealed, I noticed that several of the Japanese attacks had diverted or weakened German or Roman troops that had been headed in my direction. Even though I was very low on points, it appears that my early policy of laying low and not expanding aggressively for space or resources, saved me from becoming the target of several potential attacks. Although the AI will usually target the weakest opponent (namely myself), they can be easily distracted from doing this by each other’s aggressive behavior.

However, one consequence of being given a lot of peace and quiet was that I fell quite a bit behind by the time I had completed Terra Cotta as my first wonder. At this time, I saved the game and quit playing, and was starting to think that I had played it too conservatively so far, and would never catch up.

The next day when I continued the game, I decided to emphasize science while building up my economy. Again, I was surprised that I was left in peace for a very long stretch, but the Germans were really racing ahead, getting to Industrial very quickly. So far in Toughest games, I’ve pinned my hopes of winning on getting to Industrial first and taking the advantage of early oil. It was quite a few minutes until I was able to catch up, but except for a few German fighters harrassing Terra Cotta, I was left pretty much all alone until I had the Statue of Liberty built.

By this time, I had science maxed out pretty well, and was able to build a modern army and start blitzkrieging the nearest Spanish cities using bombers to reduce them, and following up with armor and infantry. I pressed on towards Madrid when I should have waited. It was easy to reduce, but a strong counter-attack caused me to fall back and re-group before I could assimilate the city.

Meanwhile, Germany was still ahead a bit in research, beating me into Modern and just inching me out into Informational, when they decided to build the Supercollider, my favorite wonder. So I fired a missile and found out that they do no damage to wonders under construction. However, bombers are good for this, so they were used instead, while I started building my own copy of the wonder. After building it, Supercollider gave me a big edge, since I was able to research end game techs afterwards instantly, accumulating three of them very quickly.

With World Government, the second attack on Madrid was successful. Instant capital assimilations make quick work of conquering another civ. It took awhile to use the same trick on the Germans, who had the AI tech in time to make things wild and woolly. We had a tremendous battle along our border, and I was beaten, but then instead of marching in and threatening my cities, the Germans turned right and went after the Japanese, who had been chipping away at their other border. By keeping up constant pressure on Berlin with bombers, I was finally able to get some infantry next to the city in time to take it instantly and end the game. It took about 4 or 5 attempts, though.

This time I have included two replay files in the attached zip file, br1 and br2, which together cover the whole game.

Incidently, two things I’ve noticed while playing RoN so far:

1) The AI will not build any wonders until after I start on my first one. After that they build as many as possible. It just may be a coincidence noticed in my limited number of games, so I’m wondering whether anyone else has noticed this?

2) Likewise, this game and any previous one I’ve played in which I did not research or use nuclear weapons has led to a similar result. As with wonders, if I don’t build them, neither do the AI. Again, what’s the experience of other players on this?

[solo]

I've moved on to the Chinese, who look to me to have a pretty good advantage over other civs, as I was able to keep up with the AI with instant villagers and the 20% break on science research. I was first into Industrial and went into the lead while there, getting and keeping a very good lead in Science and Commerce. (Science VII while the AI were at Science IV). This game was on the African Watering Hole map vs. the Germans, Maya and Koreans. I was able to build Colossus in addition to the usual wonders (TC, SoL and Supercollider).

Near the end the Germans built and launched some nuclear weapons my way even though I had not researched this, so the observation in my previous post has been proven wrong. However, all AI still waited on wonder building until after I had begun my first one.

I believe that instant villager production is a HUGE advantage for the Chinese, since this allowed me to stay almost even with leading AI in the early game. With all other civs so far, I've always fallen way behind early because of that AI 50% gathering bonus in Toughest. It was almost like having that AI end game tech early.

Anyways, the Chinese are now my civ of choice, but there are still 14 others to check out, to see how their civ bonuses compare.

[Grond]

Actually I've never paused but I do crank it down to very slow on occasion. I'm pretty much on the defensive until Gunpowder or Enlightenment on Tougher and Toughest. My favorite Civs seem to peak around that time. I haven't tried much rushing with any of the rushing Civs.

[solo]

Grond,

I watched the replay you posted and your win in Toughest without pausing is most impressive. I play normal speed but pause when needed, mostly because I do not like the feeling of being rushed that I get when playing without pauses. Too old and too used to TBS games I guess!

Unless a very early rush is attempted, I would agree that early defense is almost a must. Let the AI come to you and fight on your terms and not theirs, using defensive structures and terrain to gain an edge. Make use of the built in defender's advantage. Kick butt later!

A very early rush may be more suitable to a 4 player game,and if launched as soon as possible, the odds of reducing the AI capital are excellent if the target has been booming. Assimilation chances are also quite good.

[Out4Blood]

Pausing?! Who the fcuk pauses?!
This is RTS not TBS...

[Skanky Burns]

Actually it is meant to be a combination of the two. Didn't you read the box?

[solo]

Out4Blood,

Why not have a little more patience for those of us used to TBS and its strategic depth while we begin making the transition to the RTS genre?

This is a strategy forum, and I also like to pause and think about my posts before inserting them, trying to ensure they are relevant, thoughtful, mature and considerate of others and their playing preferences.

[Aginor]

Originally posted by Out4Blood

My build order is different. I want to maximize the production in the beginning. IMO, as British, the critical aspect is max food, then max out wood, then max out food again.

Took me about a dozen games to figure this out...sometimes I'm not all that smart...

So I start the game with VQ, then use the 2 cutters to drop 2 new farms and send all new villagers to wood. If I have crappy wood spot, I'll build a second right there. After the first 2 farms are built, I'll wait til 120 wood and research science as my first tech.

Substantively the same, except I have been researching Civics right off the bat...probably need to get out of that Bantu habit (freaking amazing with them).

Some micro tricks for defeating AI armies...

An even more "unfair" method:

I usually build about 3-4 Archers early, and get this done by fishing obsessively and getting Taxation fast. Just garrison said Archers...if the enemy shows up, grab a couple citizens and put them in the City. Play "catch the Archer" until the Slingers are unprotected attacking the Archers while the Hoplites close into an unfavorable position, then pop out the Citizens and slam the Slingers with the Citizens. Citizens just WRECK Slingers, this saves me quite a number of resources in Ancient.

After that, my plan is the usual build mad siege model, garrisoning it in the two Siege Factories on my key border cities until Gunpowder, then upgrading. Food, Wealth and Knowledge drive the advances, and AI armies get murdered if you've got 4-8 Bombards/Cannon waiting for them behind the City...

[Aginor]

Originally posted by solo
Grond,

The British are good, but I think you have to be patient for their advantages to pay off.

After getting REPEATEDLY smoked with the British on land maps and finally taking a couple games:
1) The Brits are NOT GOOD in the first two Ages. When they start to pay off is in late Classical as Taxation gets you into a position to catch up in Knowledge.
2) In order to take advantage of the Commerce bonus, you have to invest a LOT more resources early in utilizing your bonus than the boom civs that get production bonuses. Which of course means a very, very, very risky boom.
3) That said it all starts paying dividends around Enlightenment, and you can get to Industrial VERY fast with the Brits. Really all you need is the Colossus and you dominate the late game - 100 of all resources every 30 seconds translates to a LOT of extra units in the last 20 minutes...and as we all know, once you start losing a war to a monster army, you usually stay losing.

Once I get the hang of how to play a civ, I move on to the next. I found water maps to be much easier on Toughest than land maps.

No rush = kick AI's butt.


[QUOTE]
1) The AI will not build any wonders until after I start on my first one. After that they build as many as possible. It just may be a coincidence noticed in my limited number of games, so I’m wondering whether anyone else has noticed this?

No...typically AI will wait until Gunpowder to build Wonders and then go hog wild regardless of whether I throw up an early Colossus/Terra Cotta.

2) Likewise, this game and any previous one I’ve played in which I did not research or use nuclear weapons has led to a similar result. As with wonders, if I don’t build them, neither do the AI. Again, what’s the experience of other players on this?

Mmmm....if I fall behind I get nuked like mad, and I've had my share of games where the AI researched them first (I rarely research them...too busy trying to get to Info Age and MLRS, NOT a strat to follow against the living). It may be that your chief adversary can't REACH you with them...I've had that happen a number of times, and figured that's why he put it off.

[Drachen]

I thought it might be interesting to post a save of a typical Egyptian wonder win on toughest. I've found that on a Great Lakes map you can pretty much predict the attack lanes the A.I. will use if you build your cities in the shape of an inverted T. I like to start by researching science as I find that this increases the yield from my Scout without cutting my build up since I have to wait for the city to build citizens anyway. It's a drag…but I hand manage my Scout up to about medieval so that I can scope out the battlefield. I like to get my temple up before founding my second city as this usually improves its placement. It's also helpful if you have your workers stop and build a dock on the way to the Second City site. Strategic considerations outweighed resource gathering concerns for my Second City. If you look at the replay will see that my second City had no resources but is merely a stopover point for the placement of my battle city. You want to get battle city up by about six minutes and be working on your fortifications immediately afterwards. Early attacks can be handled by barracks troops alone but by about eight or nine minutes I like to get my siege weapons up. Playing as the Egyptians eases the way to get the important wonders and for me this includes Colossus, Terra Cotta, Versailles, and the Statue of Liberty. If you get these wonders then you can be pretty confident that you will dominate the end game and at this point it's easy to go for either a military or a wonder win.

Note; I was unable to attach the replay after editing post so I've reposted it after Solos message.

Cheers

[solo]

Aginor,

That sounds about right for wonders, that the AI wait until Gunpowder instead of waiting for me. I'll have to check out this likely explanation in following games.

You are right about nuclear weapons. I was nuked in my subsequent game which I noted in the post describing it. I was hit by about 5 nukes before getting up the Missile Shield. The AI always seem to target cities, but collateral damage can be considerable.

In my openings, I usually research science immediately to improve ruins bonuses and to reduce other research costs, and make the first 2 or three villagers into woodcutters. In the early game I find I'm wanting more wood the most. Then one more citizen is made and sent out to the second city site while researching civics. I always seem to have enough food using this opening, so I wait on building two more farms in my capital until the second city is started. You can't always depend on fishing for early gold, so I think it's imperative to get that second city built quickly, followed by a market and that first trade route. I think capping food and wood ASAP is NOT the best policy in the opening and that it's better to work earlier on building up sources of wealth. I try to collect just enough food and wood to keep things humming. In any event, I think I will run a few tests to see which opening strategy is most efficient.

The Brits ARE tough to play well, since the human player is the most vulnerable before being able to build a good enough "counter siege" to repel supplied AI attacks.

You should give the Chinese a try, as they really do compete much earlier in Toughest. With them, farms first are actually best because there's no delay in replacing wood needed for the second city and its surrounding buildings. I think the Chinese are very strong with just instant citizens and their 20% science bonus. Adding in large cities from the get-go and their free medical upgrades just makes things even better.

Drachen,

After an easy time of it as the Chinese I moved right on to the Egyptians and concur with your obersvations made while playing them yourself. I look forward to viewing your replay and comparing what we did with this civ.

In my game, I was given the Austrailian Outback map, and had the Greeks, Nubians and Turks as my AI opponents. This map is good for fishing, but since the land is sorrounded by ocean, there was hardly any room left for cities. It was like playing on a smaller map, and at first I was worried that lack of space would lead to many AI attacks, since all of the available terrrain was claimed very quickly. There was only enough room for three normal sized cities each.

I got a tower, attrition and a few archers in place in enough time for the first AI unsupplied attacks, but the first suppied attack with a catapult came much earlier than usual. While it was going on, I had to build my own siege factory and start a catapult of my own. By the time the city's hit points had been cut in half, I was able to research Medieval to convert to a large city, which bought enough time to build another catapult and use it to help take out the AI's.

Later on, I was not threatened as much as I had expected. Cramped living quarters had also facilitated conflict among the AI, buying time for me to lay low and catch up. Turtling like this was successful and has worked very well in my last three games. Eventually I get a lead in science and am able to get to those end game techs first. However, in this game it was very close, since I trailed the Nubians until nearr the very end. They had become almost twice as strong earlier after defeating the Turks.

Below is a replay starting from about the 8 minute mark.

(This is the new one, and the .rec file should go by the same name. I checked and egypt.rec loads and runs for me.)

[Drachen]

Solo; I've been enjoying your posts and hope to be able to check out your Egypt replay although I've not been able to get it to open as yet. I unzipped it, dropped it in the right folder, and have the (.rec) extension but it doesn't open. Other downloaded zips do open so I'm not sure what's up with this as of yet. At any rate, this is a great thread and so my thanks to all of you whose advice I used to work my way up to toughest.

In passing...what a great game! This is the first RTS game since AOE that's been able to pull me away from CivIII for any length of time and I have so much left to explore. Yahoo

Here's the missing replay from my previous post.

[solo]

Drachen,

Thanks! I found and was able to load the replay from your first post and enjoyed watching it. Nice going! You kept even or ahead of the Germans throughout, and go about your research in an eerily familiar way and order, by always leading with science and commerce! That was quite a battle in the middle of the map! We do the same thing with the outermost city, using it almost exclusively for military buildings.

I will check out my zipped replay and repost it as soon as I find out what's wrong.

I've just completed my test comparing two opening strategies. Here are the results:

I ran a test in order to compare two opening strategies for the British in a game at Toughest, playing each opening until the 5 minute mark and then comparing what had been accomplished.

Test #1

During this one I started by using two farmers to build two new farms while switching two woodcutters to existing farms. The city began by producing 4 woodcutters to fill the first camp, while the scout was sent off to explore. The first set of ruins produced 25 wealth. By the time the first woodcutter camp was full another was started, adding more woodcutters to reach a production rate of 80. Meanwhile, by the time 120 wood was collected, Science I was researched. This was followed by Civics I as another citizen was produced and sent on his way towards the site for the second city, arriving in time to begin construction. Then as soon as Commerce I could be researched, it was, in order to add a market and more production. Right after the market, a caravan and merchant were built, the merchant being set up on the resource right next to that city yielding 10 wealth and 10 science. After that the second city was developed by adding farms, more woodcutters, and a temple. Then after Military I, work started on a tower and barracks. Meanwhile the scout found 4 more ruins, with various results, yielding 50 more of whatever commodity was lowest.

By the 5 minute mark, Science II was almost finished being researched. 8 farmers were working 8 farms, 8 woodcutters were working 13 slots, and a caravan and merchant were combining to earn 36 wealth, with 120 wealth currently on hand. A temple, market, barracks and tower had been completed near the second city.

Test #2

During this one Science I was researched immediately and the capital produced 2 woodcutters to fill up the first camp. By the time the scout found the first set of ruins, Science I was complete, so it yielded 50 food, since Civics I was being researched. After that, the scout continued to explore, following the same path made during the first game. However, due to it wider LOS, a second set of ruins was discovered sooner that was missed in the first test, adding 50 more food. Meanwhile, a third villager was produced and on its way to the second city site, arriving as Civics I was completed and just in time to start construction. While this was being done another farm was built at the capital and another woodcutter’s camp was built there too.

Soon the second city was also producing 10 more food and wood, so Commerce I was researched immediately and the villager used to build the city continued with a market. As this was being done more woodcutters were added to the second camp and the fifth farm was built for the capital. When completed, the market produced a caravan and merchant as in the first test, while devlopment continued on the second city. A temple was added, and by that time Military was researched, so work could continue on a tower and barracks, which were also finished. When there was enough wood or food to spare, more farms were added and another woodcutter camp was set up near the second city. Another marketplace was built next to the capital, too.

Meanwhile enough early wealth had been acquired to afford research of Science II earlier than in the first test. This was also made possible because more food than other commodities had come from early ruins than during the first test, too. Afterwards, the scout was able to get 75 of each resource from the last two ruins that were found and ended up finding a total of 7 ruins as compared to the 5 which were found in the first test, because of his expanded LOS.

By the 5 minute mark, Classical had also been researched, allowing me to complete Taxation research, too. 7 farmers were working 7 farms, and 10 woodcutters were working 13 slots. There was 100 metal on hand, but no mines yet. There was a total of 174 wealth and its production was up to 64, nearly double that attained in the first test. There was also 105 knowledge, and it was accumulating at a rate of 12 due to the special resource.

Conclusion

The results for the second test were much better than those for the first, and I think the main reason for this was because the second city was built much sooner in the second test than in the first. Once it was established, it was contributing its 10 food and wood much earlier than in the the first test, and doing so without spending another 60 food or so needed in the first test for an extra woodcutter and farmer. A quicker second city also got trade and wealth going much earlier, too, allowing earlier research of Science II. With more emphasis in the second test on producing wood and wealth, most early ruins produced food which more than compensated for the lack of emphasis on farming during the opening minutes. Also, I believe that the initial workers are slightly more efficient if left as placed in the opening, rather than re-tasking them immediately as was done in the first test.

[Grond]

As British I don't upgrade to commerce 3 early unless I have enough water to fish in. Building a 3rd set of farms early is too expensive and will usually get you killed. Fishing also helps tremendously with getting out those crucial unique archers early. I tend to skimp on infantry as British, preferring to save my metal for Knights, Cannons, Castles, Generals, Spies and upgrades.

[Grond]

As regards to the test you really want to get food from ruins at the beginning of the game so its best to keep the max villagers qued up and then unque some if you need to some food for research.

[Aginor]

Played as the Brits again twice last night & got spanked in Gunpowder both times, played as the Bantu and lost badly in Enlightenment (simultaneous pincer, it sucked), concluded I was just playing badly.

Played as the Bantu tonight, won, and in the process discovered something REALLY EVIL.

Seems we're playing a 4-corner start on Great Lakes. I build cities in a V, only get around 18% of the map, but I don't care because I've got a HOUSE defended in the center by a big lake. Only two ways to get to me, kids, as I've got a host of early warning Fishermen on the lake if the AI goes for the jugular that way (not that I've ever seen the AI build a boat on that map, but whatever). Bad news is that I'm poor all game due to weak Taxation and my Caravans apparently having big bullseyes painted on them...I'd really be hating life if I were British. My 5 Fishermen keep me from abject poverty tho.

Fifth city is BADLY underdefended as it's got one Citizen and a host of buildings and is NOT the Terra Cotta rally point (just built it for a buffer in front of my big Mine on the right side really). Basically I've got a Stable and a Siege Factory when, during Enlightenment, the Egyptians send about 25 units with 4 Cannon. I have NOTHING here but about a half dozen Cannon and a Wagon, as whatever irrelevant crew is on the left side (don't remember who) rushed me at the get go and has been feeling frisky all game, and I had to clean out my troops from the never-attacked right to save that city, which is a LOT more important since it has a University and a Mine, towards the end of Gunpowder.

So his artillery hammers my city, Temple and Architecture or no, down to empty in no time flat and HERE COMES THE JUDGE...not good. I've whacked a few units with my Cannon, and I've been sending Hoplites over from the one Barracks in range while researching Fusileers, but it just doesn't look good. Never have moved the Cannon since they spawned.

Anyway, the Siege Factory is about an inch northeast of that nice lake, and all the buildings are in line leaving a pretty tight attacking lane, which prevents the cavalry from swarming the Cannon, at least. The frontmost Cannon gets down to about 1/2 life, and out of sheer desperation, and not expecting it to work, I garrison the Cannon, expecting to see the Cannon's little yellow meter take too long to fill up and watch the Cannon die.

Instead, to my shock, it disappears right into home base, and I've still got 5 fresh Cannon...and the Fusileers upgrade...and Versailles goes up...and the rout is on! Use the instant garrison trick once more, pop the other Cannon back out...and after a good beating what is left of the Infantry line, Cannon and Wagons breaks and runs.

Smoked 20 of the 25 units with 6 Cannon and 2 lousy Fusileers (other 2 Hoplites I built got whacked as Hoplites before upgrade came through). Unreal. Wish I'd known I could do the Ancient Bowmen trick with Cannon before!

Think about this...if you position the Factory right, you can pull the enemy into position with the Cannon, garrison them, and flag them out the back side...shape your buildings right with a good long V shape and you can make one UGLY killing field where the other guy can't even GET to your Cannon without his own...hide some Fusileers in a Barracks he's got to go around on the corner to reach the Cannon and pop them right into his back/flank...you can have tons of fun with this.

Anyway, this beating bought me enough time to reach Industrial and throw up the Statue, securing the win (though incompetent generalship on my part slowed it down...throwing my troops into a two-front war to capture the Angkor Wat, which was RIGHT on my border, without scouting it first was NOT smart). Once again, I can't say enough about Versailles. French wagons are nice, cutting down on the frequency with which you have to send fresh units, and the research bonus is KILLER if you're trying to field an army while researching. You should have more Food and Metal than you know what to do with in mid-Enlightenment anyway.

Oh, and by the way solo, would you believe the Egyptians started the Pyramids while I was still in Ancient?!? Very strange, especially in light of the recent discussion. Even stranger, no one other than me built Wonders until Enlightenment, and I was halfway done with Versailles when suddenly everything I hadn't built started going up (I had Terra Cotta and Versailles only, my usual Bantu Wonder suite, built Statue and Supercollider, had to skip Taj this time as the fighting was VERY fierce in Modern this game.)

Still haven't gotten nuked lately...I'm finding the Comp just won't nuke you if you're leading (I usually lag in 3rd/4th until the Statue hits and then vault into the lead with the Unit upgrades and never relinquish it). Must figure (correctly) that the human will just get mad and nuke the AI even harder.

Interesting test on the Brits...I'll just have to break down and mess with them in a disciplined fashion to figure out the start. Next up on my list is the Incans, though I'll check the Chinese out, as the more you describe them the more it sounds like they may be the solution to some issues I've had. I'm interested to see if a civ can improve upon the Bantu boom, which is VERY powerful even though you can't really point to any one of their advantages and say "that's just wrong"...the whole set of moderately powered advantages is just disturbingly synergistic though. I played a lot of Yang in SMAC, and I find the style of play for the Bantu fairly similar.

[solo]

Aginor,

That's a good idea for using cannon, but while I was fooling with mine last game, I strayed a bit far trying to get the Greeks to charge into the the range of my fort, and I lost one to an enemy spy. I just hate it when they bribe my cannon! In spite of this, they have become my weapon of choice in the first half of the game, so I don't even bother with anything other than siege and one or two hoplites to keep things honest. By the way, a general works great with cannon, too, and can usually force march badly wounded ones into garrison quickly enough to save them.

I wonder what the difference has been in our last few games, as I have had a relatively easy time of it by adding many archers for defense until siege are available. Now I make sure each city has an archer and each tower has two before adding another city, and go for attrition sooner than I used to in games when I was hurt early. Doing this puts me a little bit more behind and gives me less space, but after watching replays of these turtling games, I've noticed that there was much more conflict among the AI, leaving me much more free time to boom during the middle of the game.

Of the civs played so far, I place the Bantus in second place after the Chinese when playing Toughest. The Egyptians had some good stuff to help them, but were not as effective as I thought they would be. It took all game to catch up and finally pull ahead, although part of this may be due to the limited amount of land on the Australian map. Still, their bonuses place them third on my list in games where I do not rush.

My test on starts showed a big disparity in results after only 5 minutes, which makes me think that the gathering rates of the human player may be secretly adjusted based on things like tech acquisition, number of cities, etc. We all know that in Toughest, that the AI gathering rates have been increased by 50%, and if the game tinkers with human rates, too, this would not be noticeable without comparative tests.