Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread - Page 10

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 12:59

Oh God, you guys....you're not using facts again, are you?! You know THOSE don't count....

-=Vel=-

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 12:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Ummm....actually, no.

OTOH, a communist without his jackboots on is like a fish out of water.

'bout all he can do is stand around with his buddies complaining about how exploitive the system is.

Rather than whine about it, how 'bout get in there and "exploit" it right back? Oh....I forgot! You're already doing that!

(and good luck with the accounting degree!)

-=Vel=-

I can get an accounting degree and still vote Green

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 13:06

Yep...enjoy your freedom while you can....it'll all disappear when what you say you want to happen, happens.

-=Vel=-

DAVOUT · June 19, 2003, 13:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

I can get an accounting degree and still vote Green

I suspect that you will desagree with the basic rules of accounting.

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 13:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yep...enjoy your freedom while you can....it'll all disappear when what you say you want to happen, happens.

-=Vel=-

Let's see. Would I rather have the freedom to exploit poor working people or would I like to see the end of systematic poverty.

End of systematic poverty all the way!

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 13:12

Quote:

Originally posted by DAVOUT
I suspect that you will desagree with the basic rules of accounting.

Which rules are those?

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 13:28

Good luck getting communism to do what you want it to do.

I suppose it's easier to believe in a fantasy world where communism is some day implemented the "proper" way than it is to get your hands dirty and try to do something about the problems you percieve here in the real world, but...:: shrug:: that's your bag.

-=Vel=-

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 13:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Good luck getting communism to do what you want it to do.

I suppose it's easier to believe in a fantasy world where communism is some day implemented the "proper" way than it is to get your hands dirty and try to do something about the problems you percieve here in the real world, but...:: shrug:: that's your bag.

-=Vel=-

You don't know me. So don't project on me.

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 14:06

Hey....just an idle observation from a guy whose opinion doesn't count (being just an individual an' all)....nothing to worry yourself over....

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 14:15

Uh oh....now he gets thin skinned.

Well, let's take a closer look then:

Communism as described has NEVER been successfully implemented, though it has been tried repeatedly. Since there are no real world examples now, and since there never have been, and yet, despite that fact, people still believe in it....I'd pretty much call that a fantasy.

You have stated your belief in it. If it's a fantasy, and you believe it, how's that projecting, exactly?

You have also stated your desire for state-mandated equality. I didn't say it....YOU did, and the implication that it carries with it is that it's less fuss, less muss (easier) to deal with the whole equality thing if someone else dictates equality to you.

If that's what you want....have at it, and best of luck.

(and again, no projection)

-=Vel=-

PS: Did we get testy when you called us exploitive pigdogs? The implication is a helluva lot nastier than saying that you're a dreamer who would rather have the state dictate the terms of your future to you, but we didn't cry foul...

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 14:25

I meant that you were implying that I don't do anything to help people. Again, you don't know me. I don't know where you would get that idea, certainly not from my politics. Now I admit that I believe that people who have sympathetic political ideas are superior to those who don't, but how do you switch that around and say that communists just sit around thinking about fantasy and not helping people?

JohnT · June 19, 2003, 14:44

"Now I admit that I believe that people who have sympathetic political ideas are superior to those who don't"

Therefore forming an Elite of a different nature - one not based upon wealth or earnings, but upon political acceptability.

God, aren't statements like the above what formed the USSR (and ALL other Communist states) into totalitarian hellholes?

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
Therefore forming an Elite of a different nature

No, FORMING an elite is when you create a system that benefits you more and then claiming that you are elite because the system benefits you more. Being elite is another matter

JohnT · June 19, 2003, 15:06

No, forming an elite is when a group of people come into power who believe that they are superior to others.

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 15:09

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnT
No, forming an elite is when a group of people come into power who believe that they are superior to others.

Isn't that what I said?

No seriously, I don't think I'm elite. God know I'm not the smartest person in the world, and intelligence is important. But the ability to sympathise when each other is another very important social quality. And in that area I think I do pretty good.

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 16:24

double post hunted down and eaten.

-=Vel=-

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 16:25

Hey Comrade...if the shoe fits....

Seriously...what does talking about the "glorious revolution" do to help your fellow, brutally exploited workers? Does it magically make it stop?

Nahhh.

And even if you're an active member of the communist party, what does that amount to? Going to a meeting once a month and getting drunk on the fantasy? How is that helping stop the exploitation of your brothers?

Maybe if you're REALLY active you'll participate in a product boycott or two (now and then).

Hardly anything that one could call "revolutionary" though.

On the other hand, there's no shortage of things that can be done right now (today!) to help your downtrodden bretheren, and it can be done by working WITHIN the existing system!

It's grubby, thankless work, true. But it's work that makes a heck of a lot more difference than pining for the revolution that's not coming....

-=Vel=-

Jack_www · June 19, 2003, 17:03

Kidicious please answer this question cause I have not had any communist answer it for me or if they did they did not give a very good answer to the question.
How would you avoid a Soviet style government from froming? How would you get to your goal were everyone is equal, and no one is oppressed?

Please try to counter at least some of our arguments.

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 18:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
On the other hand, there's no shortage of things that can be done right now (today!) to help your downtrodden bretheren, and it can be done by working WITHIN the existing system!

You're right on this account. I do what I can, and I hope the revolution will be very easy with violence and suffering held to a minimum.

MichaeltheGreat · June 19, 2003, 18:45

We'll try to use the minimum force necessary to restrain you, but if you resist, we might have to break a few heads.

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 18:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack_www
Kidicious please answer this question cause I have not had any communist answer it for me or if they did they did not give a very good answer to the question.
How would you avoid a Soviet style government from froming? How would you get to your goal were everyone is equal, and no one is oppressed?

Please try to counter at least some of our arguments.

What type of situation are you imagining? That is, how did the revolution come about, and what were the important specifics?

Velociryx · June 19, 2003, 18:47

Think about what you just said.

If I'm right on "that account" (that there's plenty that can be done to help the "downtrodden" by working within the existing system), then what's the point of, or the need for, the "revolution" at all?

Because unless you can answer Jack_WWW's question, (and assuming you get your way), there WILL BE a bloody revolution, and a portion of that blood will be on your hands.

-=Vel=-

Jack_www · June 19, 2003, 18:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Kidicious

What type of situation are you imagining? That is, how did the revolution come about, and what were the important specifics?

You cant answer that? I want to know what steps you would take to stop the rise of dictator and the spression of peoples freedoms if you got the chance to change a country over to communism.

The Templar · June 19, 2003, 18:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
On the other hand, there's no shortage of things that can be done right now (today!) to help your downtrodden bretheren, and it can be done by working WITHIN the existing system!

It's grubby, thankless work, true. But it's work that makes a heck of a lot more difference than pining for the revolution that's not coming....

-=Vel=-

Uh, that's exactly what I do - work within the present system to help the downtrodden. And I disagree, it's anything but a thankless job if you value community more than money. The rewards are mostly non-pecuniary, but they are substantial.

The present system sucks. So I'll keep sticking my finger in the **** as a stop-gap measure while pushing for a more equitable system.

The Templar · June 19, 2003, 18:57

Quote:

Originally posted by The Templar

The present system sucks. So I'll keep sticking my finger in the **** as a stop-gap measure while pushing for a more equitable system.

Good grief D-Y-K-E refers to a wall that retains water. Can we get a smarter language filter around here!

You can't even mention **** Cheney or **** Armey or **** Nixon! Gimme a break!

The Templar · June 19, 2003, 19:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack_www
Kidicious please answer this question cause I have not had any communist answer it for me or if they did they did not give a very good answer to the question.
How would you avoid a Soviet style government from froming? How would you get to your goal were everyone is equal, and no one is oppressed?

Please try to counter at least some of our arguments.

I'll answer. Set up a bill of rights, a supreme court, and private rights of action to enjoin violations of rights. As long as there are effective checks and balances in the government the economic system will not lead to tyranny.

Capitalism is no guard against tyrrany - ask any Pinochet victim (oh, I guess you can't, they all disappeared). Capitalism is merely an economic system, if one part of the government is intent on oppressing you, and no other part can or will stop it, then capitalism will not save you. Rule of law, transparancy, and checks and ballances stop tyranny.

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 19:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
If I'm right on "that account" (that there's plenty that can be done to help the "downtrodden" by working within the existing system), then what's the point of, or the need for, the "revolution" at all?

The key word is 'can.' 'Can' doesn't mean 'does.' There is only so much one person can do alone, but the whole system can do much more. For me it's natural to help poor people individually, and I know many, AND promote a new system that will be able to end their suffering much more than I could do individually. Why the hell would I support a system that causes their suffering?

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 19:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Because unless you can answer Jack_WWW's question, (and assuming you get your way), there WILL BE a bloody revolution, and a portion of that blood will be on your hands.

-=Vel=-

The people's blood is already on your hands.

Kidicious · June 19, 2003, 19:24

btw, I'm not even going to open that other communism thread

MichaeltheGreat · June 19, 2003, 19:29

Quote:

Originally posted by The Templar

I'll answer. Set up a bill of rights, a supreme court, and private rights of action to enjoin violations of rights. As long as there are effective checks and balances in the government the economic system will not lead to tyranny.

So how does this non-tyranical governement go about telling me I know longer own my own company or my intellectual property - they're all forfeit to the state, for the benefit of "the workers" because I have too much, and now I'm a state employee for whatever the standard allowance is?

Because if they politely suggested, my response would be a polite "go **** yourselves."

You can't have the kind of radical redistribution of property, jobs, ownership of intangibles, etc., without either massive force to compel such changes (so much for rights, checks and balances and non-tyranny), or without assuming people will magically say "yay, we'd love to, just tell us what you want, comrade."

In the first case, you're back to your central, party-dominated thugocracy, if you assume the second, you're higher than the Mad Hatter in Alice in Wonderland.