Babylon and on - the new capitalism/communism thread

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by The Templar


Well, now we know why if communists win an election there might be blood ...

Well, we know communists will never win an election - they can't even beat out the Libertarians for that half percent or so in the polls.

Actually, the government has wise lattitude to condemn your property for eminent domain.

Yes, by reimbursement at fair market value, subject to judicial proceedings, the right to call independent expert witnesses (appraisers and such). I've dealt with eminent domain actions numerous times, since I work around the utility field. In fact, legislatively franchised private utilities generally have eminent domain rights with respect to facilities dedicated to serve the public. They too are under the same judicial rules. Seizure without due process violates the Federal Constitution.

Or the government can exercise its police power in ways that greatly limit the use of your property or reduce its value without compensating you.

Zoning, development restrictions, etc. are in a different category entirely from seizures or eminent domain actions, but again, they are litigable issues.

Your intellectual property? If the government declares necessity, it can bust your patent and not compensate you. The government can reduce your copyright's length of time.

Again, under very limited and precisely defined situations, subject to judicial proceedings and due process rights.

Even under our capitalist system, your property as at the mercy of the government. And only a total taking will likely force them to pay compensation - and then only if its not under necessity.

"At the mercy" - nice hyperbole, but hardly suited to the reality of the situation. I don't know where you live in the US, but you're a little behind the times on the law - there is plenty of precedent in numerous states for changes in zoning laws or discretionary regulatory action being compensable at law.

In fact, property - private, communal, whatever - is just a form of government regulation in the first place. Property is not naturally occuring, or parceled out by God.

Property ownership is a recognition of a naturally occuring phenomena. When I pick up a piece of rock and make a stone tool, that's my tool, unless I decide to give it to you or let you use it. Take it from me, and if you don't give it back, I'll spear you and mount your head on a spear to let the neighbors know I don't like people taking my stone tools.

Some primitive cultures were communal, some were mixes of individual "stuff" and communal stuff, but the general notion evolved that it was a lot easier to function as a group if there were consistent notions as to who had what. The reason wasn't that "government regulation" created property rights. Your spear arm or club arm did that. Goverment regulation occured because it was a smoother system of managing those issues than de facto trial by combat without rules.

Its parameters are established by the state, and it is enforced by the state. Private property is only the assignment of entitlements to private individuals. WHo does the initial assignment and enforces the system thereafter? The state. "Your" property is only yours because the community has decided to allow such entitlements to exist.

This system has been around in well documented form for over two millenia, and again, evolved out of a desire to reduce the social cost of pre-existing private enforcement by blood.

This is another example of libertarianism just plain getting things wrong. Property is just another government regulation in the first place.

Actually, this is just the commie pseudo-philosophy conveniently ignoring the real purposes of the original formation of the state, to instead create a world view where the state itself is the be-all and end-all source of all things, and the citizens thereof are subservient to the state.

In other words, your saying if the community decides to reassign entitlements, you'll start killing people?

If "the community" decides to say "**** the system of rights, privileges, participatory government, due process, etc., we're all just going to help ourselves to what of yours we want, and tell you what we think we'll deign to let you keep" then I'll be stackin' 'em like cordwood. Bring plenty of firepower, and a strong faith in the mercy of God, because you'll need both.

[Odin]

Corporations
Command Economy
Co-ops

You don't need a centerally planned economy in communism, just make businesses democracies, each empolyee gets equal say in choosing the board of directors, it is both communist and free market. the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).

[yavoon]

Originally posted by Odin
Corporations
Command Economy
Co-ops

You don't need a centerally planned economy in communism, just make businesses democracies, each empolyee gets equal say in choosing the board of directors, it is both communist and free market. the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).

what happens when businesses that are run by one person is superior to democratically run businesses? will u just use the military to seize it? or when a democratic business goes bankrupt and everyone loses their job?

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Which rules are those?

Accounting aims to eliminate ambiguities, intentions, hopes, faith, dreams, in sticking to hard data recorded and classified in a simple and universally accepted way. Anytime astute people try to bend those rules, it ends in disaster.

[Velociryx]

Day two....the wait for the quote from Kid continues....

-=Vel=-

[Az]

Originally posted by Odin
Corporations
Command Economy
Co-ops

You don't need a centerally planned economy in communism, just make businesses democracies, each empolyee gets equal say in choosing the board of directors, it is both communist and free market. the revolution will be bloody no matter what because governments will allways back the rich. It will be bloodless in the developed countries, but will be a bloodbath in developing countries. True, democratic/anarchic Communism can only work after a country is industrialized and is has a strong democratic tradition (like the US and W. Europe).

God I hate hate hate hate Syndicalism.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Day two....the wait for the quote from Kid continues....

-=Vel=-

You're so full of **** your teeth must me brown. Are you denying that the biggest reason that you support capitalism is because it keeps some people wealthier than they would otherwise be if the wealth were distributed equally? Isn't that what you have been talking about this whole time.

[Velociryx]

Yes. I am absolutely denying that.

IF that is what you believe, then your economics classes taught you absolutely nothing.

Having some trouble finding that quote, are you?
Surprise, surprise.

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
Accounting aims to eliminate ambiguities, intentions, hopes, faith, dreams, in sticking to hard data recorded and classified in a simple and universally accepted way. Anytime astute people try to bend those rules, it ends in disaster.

I'm not sure whay your point is. Why would accounting be any different in the communist system?

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yes. I am absolutely denying that.

I'm tired of this crap then. How can I debate with someone so dishonest?

[alva]

God I hate hate hate hate Syndicalism.

As long as their power is mimited, very very usefull.
-

3) Quietly ensure that some kinna dumb, easily controlled person made it into the White House.

No need for past tense...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You're so full of **** your teeth must me brown.

You're a sensetive one, aren't you?

[Velociryx]

Speaking of honesty, where's that quote, Kid? You accused me, show me the proof. Simple as that.

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Speaking of honesty, where's that quote, Kid? You accused me, show me the proof. Simple as that.

-=Vel=-

No need for a quote. You have been arguing that the whole time. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be in here defending capitalism. Everyone in here defending capitalism believes that.

Let's just call it an obvious perception. So why don't you show why we are seeing things incorectly?

[Velociryx]

Good thing I'm not, eh DD?

That's okay, I'm enjoying watching him try to squirm his way out of showing me that quote! Sure, I was tempted to respond in kind, but if I had, I'd be "projecting" or somesuch....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

No need for a quote?! You accused me of SAYING something very specific. Further, you went on to say that finding such a quote would be a very simple matter.

We're into the second day now, and still no quote.

Why is that, I wonder?

And when called on it, what's the line? "Oh, I don't need a quote!"

Uh huh.

Sounds like a poor attempt at a dodge to me.

Care to try again?

You might also want to go back and actually READ the thread, rather than simply trying to tell us what we believe.

I realize that's a very typically Communist thing to do (telling others what they think), but it's not winning you any points in the debate, that much is certain.

-=Vel=-

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I'm not sure whay your point is. Why would accounting be any different in the communist system?

My point is not about communism or capitalism, I just said that you would not like accounting because every entry must be justified by hard datas that you have just to record and classified. No room for specious arguments and fairy tales.

[Velociryx]

In the words of Homer Simpson (whom the Brits apparently regard as the greatest American of all time):

D'oh!


-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

I just said that you would not like accounting because every entry must be justified by hard datas that you have just to record and classified. No room for specious arguments and fairy tales.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
No need for a quote?! You accused me of SAYING something very specific.

Are you aware of a thing called implication? I assume you do, but don't think that others do. Now you get to show me where I said that you explicitly stated that.

[Velociryx]

Okay, even though you have YET to show me a quote, I'll be a gentleman and go first.

It's got nothing to do with your socio-economic status and everything to do with the winkies that you post while you explain why you should be rich while others should suffer from poverty.

~Quote from Kid - This thread, previous page~

That was simple enough.

Your turn.

-=Vel=-

PS: Yes, I know the term "implication" very well, though I'm not sure you do. If you did, then you'd understand all the *implications* of the glorious revolution you keep sayin' you're all for. I get the feeling that's why you're so keen on ignoring those parts of the debate. It's one thing to say something "feel-goodish" like "let the workers take control of the means of production!", but when you start getting down to the nuts and bolts of how that happens, you have to start thinking in terms of death squads, ripping families out of their homes in the middle of the night, unmarked graves in secluded areas....sorta puts a whole different light on it, yes? Maybe makes you a bit queasy? Good. It should. So should a paraphrase by one of the heroes of the revolution, Uncle Joe Stalin, who said something along the lines of kill one person, it’s murder, kill a hundred thousand, it’s a statistic. Way to go, Joe!

Now....you're turn.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
My point is not about communism or capitalism, I just said that you would not like accounting because every entry must be justified by hard datas that you have just to record and classified. No room for specious arguments and fairy tales.

Let me tell you about people living in fantasy world.

A man who has been downsized, who suffers from depression and or psychological morbidity, shoots his wife and kids, goes into his former place of employment and shoots everyone he can find who doesn’t get away, then turns the gun on himself and commits suicide, because he believes that his total self-worth is measured by his ability to earn money in the capitalist system. Who are these people? Not me, because I don’t measure my self-worth like that, but there isn’t a shortage of people who think like that who post here at poly.

People who measure their self-worth see the event on the news and separate it from reality. They tell themselves that it couldn’t happen to them, because they earn money through the capitalist system and believe that if they were downsized they would quickly find an even better job.

Now tell me who is living in a fantasy world.

[Velociryx]

Kid, if we can't use individual experiences as valid examples, then neither can you.

Your rule, remember?

-=Vel=-

[DinoDoc]

You seem quite adept at pulling these wierd scenarios from I know not where and blindly applying them to the people that post here. I salute you.

[Velociryx]

And besides that, since you posted your example, allow me to comment on it:

man who has been downsized,

Yep. That happens in a capitalist society.

who suffers from depression and or psychological morbidity

Can result from being downsized...at least the depression side of it, sure.

shoots his wife and kids, goes into his former place of employment and shoots everyone he can find who doesn’t get away, then turns the gun on himself and commits suicide, because he believes that his total self-worth is measured by his ability to earn money in the capitalist system.

Here's where you're full of sh*t. If a guy who gets depressed (for ANY reason) and goes on a shooting spree, he's got problems that extend WAY beyond his desire to be an able bread-winner in an economic system, no matter what it is! Of course, that doesn't fit well with your argument, so you blissfully ignore it.

Still sounds like you da one living in da fantasy world.

-=Vel=-

[Jack_www]

Originally posted by Kidicious


No need for a quote. You have been arguing that the whole time. If you didn't believe that you wouldn't be in here defending capitalism. Everyone in here defending capitalism believes that.

Let's just call it an obvious perception. So why don't you show why we are seeing things incorectly?

Well I dont want to oppress anyone to get rich. In fact I am just happy to be in the middle class and work for the things that I want instead of some government giving to me. And if I do get rich somehow it will be because I worked for it not because I oppressed anyone.

[Velociryx]

Incorrect, Jack! Even the middle class has blood on their hands.

Every time you go to the drive through window of a fast food restaurant, you are exploiting those poor slaves that work inside, as they prepair your meal for you. Do THEY get to keep the money you pay for the meal? I think not!

And it should be noted that the Kid NEVER goes out to eat for this very reason. It's boorish and exploitive.

Likewise, every time you shop. Every time you get in line at any store you frequent, you're exploiting that helpless cashier (which is why the Kid never shops, either).

Capitalist pigdog!



-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Here's where you're full of sh*t. If a guy who gets depressed (for ANY reason) and goes on a shooting spree, he's got problems that extend WAY beyond his desire to be an able bread-winner in an economic system, no matter what it is! Of course, that doesn't fit well with your argument, so you blissfully ignore it.

People who just get depressed are different. These people get depressed because they face an identity crisis. Their entire self-esteem, which has been socially conditioned, has been shattered. They based their self-worth on their earning power. Now that that is gone they feel useless. They can not handle it emotionally so they have a mental breakdown.

[Velociryx]

1) You have FAR too little faith in the power of the individual if you think that a psyche can be so easily conditioned or shattered (not surprising, given your political beliefs, which belittle the individual anyway, and relegate him to a position of unimportance)

2) Yes, you may be able to scour psych text books and FIND a case like the one you mentioned. Statistically, however, such cases where the individual has lost all sense of self save for how it is defined by his/her economic status are such a tiny statistical minority that they are irrelevant to your "whole group" philosophy in any case. They simply do not exist in legions as you are suggesting. Of course, you don't have to believe me. Do your own research.

3) Becoming depressed...even having a mental breakdown is a far, far different creature from snapping and going on a shooting spree. Again, anyone who does that for ANY reason has problems that extend way beyond self image. If you can't see that, then there really IS no point in further debate.

-=Vel=-

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


My point is not about communism or capitalism, I just said that you would not like accounting because every entry must be justified by hard datas that you have just to record and classified. No room for specious arguments and fairy tales.

Unless your work for a big five firm and a Fortune 100 client.