Field Marshall Dunning calls for talks on future relations.

[Sheep]

Field Marshall Philip Dunning of the Armed republic of Sheepsta calls for talks with the Elected Monarch of Alecrast, Lord-Captain Archaic on the futures of their relations.

He has outlined a possible list of topics

1/ Cessation of the embargoes which are clearly illegal
2/ A possible non-aggression pact and a possible start of international trade between the two nations
3/A committance to no pre-emptive nuclear strikes
4/A possible re-entry of Sheepsta to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty
5/Recognition of both governments by both governments.

He has sent this via a televised message and awaits Alecrastian replies.

[Archaic]

[From the desk of the Monarch's Press Secetary, printed as an open letter to Field Marshall Philip Dunning, the illegitimate ruler of Sheepsta, in all major regional papers the next morning]

Alecrast does not negociate with racist, dangerous, religious fanatic terrorists as yourself, especially when they're illegal rulers of nations who refer to their populace as "human resources" and routinely execute political activists. There is no possibility of a settlement between our nation and such a regime, and any dream you may have had of such a thing is simply self delusion.

[Sheep]

An open letter to the people of the region from the Ruler of the Armed Republic of Sheepsta, Field Marshall Philip Dunning

The remarks of the Alecrastian offical against the Armed Republic, are undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region. It seems that Alecrast wishes for war. Sheepsta will not allow for this attempt to overthrow the rightful government of Sheepsta to occur. The multi-national companies really in control of Alecrast have gone too far.

The government of Sheepsta while concerned with keeping Sheepsta racially pure, is also purely secular. We execture political activists who threaten to undermine the nation, mainly those who have Alecrastian connections, as being tratiors to the Republic.

However have a look at Alecrast for a second.

The Commonwealth of Alecrast is a enormous, economically powerful nation, remarkable for its complete absence of social welfare.

The government of Alecrast while possesing one of the greatest economic foundations of this region do not spend it on their people. It is Sheepsta's welfare system that allows for the underprivledged not to feel the weight of capitalist policies. Indeed this is what National Socialism is about.

However it gets worse for the Alecrastian citizen.

either ruled by a small, efficient government or a conglomerate of multinational corporations; it's difficult to tell which.

The small efficent government as the UN calls it is headed by the 'Elected' Monarch, which is under dispute by Sheepstan scholars due to the fact that there has only ever been one 'election' for monarch, is in fact the pawns for massive multi-national companies that actually head Alecrast.

We have great intrest in Alecrast and hope our ehrm 'territory' continues to thrive economically. Alecrastian citizens are indeed good at Gambling

This was the CEO of Crown Casino a Mr. Jack Briggs. Mr. Briggs also has confirmed that his and three other nations actually run Alecrast, not Lord-Captain Archaic. Wether this is true or not is open to debate, but evidence seems to be in Crown Casino's favour thus far.

What is distrubing is that Alecrast has allowed this corporate takeover and has allowed deforistation among other issues to gain rampant heights. Alecrast is in fact a pariah when it comes to envrionmental control and its national animal, the furry is near extinct due to the mining of companies such as Nukes4U.

Last but not least we point the public towards the fact that Alecrast's rich/poor gap is detestable. Ranked 3 in the wrold, there are undoubtbly many who are forced to live below the pverty line, or in fact on the streets. Is this a better way? Sheepstans think not.

As we clearly still detest the current regime of Alecrast, we have been the morally correct in trying to bring about a settlement. However this recent refusal from Alecrast is another attempt to stall the growing economic might of Sheepsta.

Alecrast sparked this conflict with objection to Sheepstan policies, they continued this conflict by embargoeing the isaland quite ineffectivley and they still continue this conflict with refusing to talk to the Sheepstan government.

If they want a war so bad, perhaps its time you found someone a little smaller to pick on. If Sheepsta is attacked, if any trading vessels connected through Sheepsta by treaty are attacked, if any futher attempt to detsbalise Sheepsta is made, we will consider it a decleration of war on Alecrasts part and they will then know the full might of Sheepstan arms.

[Archaic]

Due to the amount of utter lies in this, I'll respond twice, first in OOC, then IC later, so I can clarify points for people.

Originally posted by Sheep
An open letter to the people of the region from the Ruler of the Armed Republic of Sheepsta, Field Marshall Philip Dunning

The remarks of the Alecrastian offical against the Armed Republic, are undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region. It seems that Alecrast wishes for war. Sheepsta will not allow for this attempt to overthrow the rightful government of Sheepsta to occur. The multi-national companies really in control of Alecrast have gone too far.

1) Your selling of Nuclear Weapons and Overthrow of the previous Sheepstan government are/were undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region.

2) Your continuing lies in things such as this are undiplomatic, hostile and potential unstabalising in the region.

3) You are not the rightful government of Sheepsta.

4) Multi-national companies don't control Alecrast.

Originally posted by Sheep
The government of Sheepsta while concerned with keeping Sheepsta racially pure, is also purely secular. We execture political activists who threaten to undermine the nation, mainly those who have Alecrastian connections, as being tratiors to the Republic.

1) The laws decreed at the time of your coup and since were emphatically non-secular, as they provided for the deportation of all non-Christian citizens and, later, resulted in the government favouring Catholics. In other words....you're lying.

2) You can say they have Alecrast connections as much as you want, but seeing as you haven't discussed anything with me about there being Activists in Sheepsta with Alecrast connections and getting my approval for it, that's either a lie, or if it was meant to be taken by everyone as a statement of fact and not propaganda, godmodding.

Originally posted by Sheep
However have a look at Alecrast for a second.

Quote:

The Commonwealth of Alecrast is a enormous, economically powerful nation, remarkable for its complete absence of social welfare.

The government of Alecrast while possesing one of the greatest economic foundations of this region do not spend it on their people. It is Sheepsta's welfare system that allows for the underprivledged not to feel the weight of capitalist policies. Indeed this is what National Socialism is about.

1) You can get many other quotes at the top. Look at what I got when I opened by page today. It justifies my below statements.

The Commonwealth of Alecrast is a enormous, socially progressive nation, remarkable for its complete absence of social welfare

2) We have a privitized welfare system in some ways similar to what Japan has done in the past, whereby a company will provide welfare to the needy related to it (For example, they would pay old age pensions to their retired workers) as part of its social responsibilies. It's not state run however, nor is there laws actually forcing companies to do it (They do it because they want to. They've long since learnt the worth of acting ethically and responsibly).

3) If you didn't notice, our citizens were almost as happy as yours (And we've already given the explanation that your citizens were probably happy because they felt they were going to be freed from an opressive regime soon), so if they're so burdened, why are they so happy?

Originally posted by Sheep
However it gets worse for the Alecrastian citizen.

Quote:

either ruled by a small, efficient government or a conglomerate of multinational corporations; it's difficult to tell which.

The small efficent government as the UN calls it is headed by the 'Elected' Monarch, which is under dispute by Sheepstan scholars due to the fact that there has only ever been one 'election' for monarch, is in fact the pawns for massive multi-national companies that actually head Alecrast.

1) What "Sheepstan scholars" say is irrelevant, given that they quite obviously have no knowledge of the situation.

2) While it is true that this "year" in the game world would mark the first election for monarch since the original one when the nation was created.

3) Elections were for a long time suspended because of the disaster with the attacks on Alecrast (Which you said OOC was an attack made by Sheepsta), where we needed a stable government. We have had elections since then, however we haven't had an election for the Monarch again, since that position is held for a rather long period of time, and is a seperate election than that for the council members.

4) The Monarch cannot act without popular approval. Indeed, the council can overrule the monarch. He's something between our Governor General and the Americian President in power. Thus, how often he's elected doesn't matter a great deal.

Originally posted by Sheep

Quote:

We have great intrest in Alecrast and hope our ehrm 'territory' continues to thrive economically. Alecrastian citizens are indeed good at Gambling

This was the CEO of Crown Casino a Mr. Jack Briggs. Mr. Briggs also has confirmed that his and three other nations actually run Alecrast, not Lord-Captain Archaic. Wether this is true or not is open to debate, but evidence seems to be in Crown Casino's favour thus far.

1) Blantant godmodding on your part if it was meant to be taken as fact. You can't state things about my nation, or who runs it.

2) There is no "Crown Casino" in Alecrast, nor are any of the firms in Alecrast owned by any firm from nations you own, meaning you don't have any characters you can have make such statements, least of all this "Mr. Jack Briggs."

Originally posted by Sheep
What is distrubing is that Alecrast has allowed this corporate takeover and has allowed deforistation among other issues to gain rampant heights. Alecrast is in fact a pariah when it comes to envrionmental control and its national animal, the furry is near extinct due to the mining of companies such as Nukes4U.

1) There has been no corporate takeover

2) We haven't allowed Deforestation. If you've conveniently forgotten, the attacks on Alecrast by Sheepsta during the HSA incident and the "Chaos Wars" that occured directly before the formation of the Commonwealth of Alecrast are responsible for this. It's not our fault the plants can't grow because you contaminated the nation.

3) If you've bothered to even watch our page for the past few weeks, you'd see that we've been refusing mining sector requests to mine Uranium from our few remaining rainforests.

Originally posted by Sheep
Last but not least we point the public towards the fact that Alecrast's rich/poor gap is detestable. Ranked 3 in the wrold, there are undoubtbly many who are forced to live below the pverty line, or in fact on the streets. Is this a better way? Sheepstans think not.

1) 3rd in the region, not in the world.

2) Dispite this, people are still quite happy (39th in the region), which they would not be if they were below the poverty line or living on the streets.

3) That rich/poor gap only takes into consideration the situation
a) Before tax (We have 0% income tax, which is why the gap is so large, but we have other taxes)
b) Before private firm welfare efforts, outlined above

Originally posted by Sheep
As we clearly still detest the current regime of Alecrast, we have been the morally correct in trying to bring about a settlement. However this recent refusal from Alecrast is another attempt to stall the growing economic might of Sheepsta.

1) The refusal of Alecrast is not an attempt to stall your economy. It is an attempt to remove a violent, racist, religiously fanatic dictator.

Originally posted by Sheep
Alecrast sparked this conflict with objection to Sheepstan policies, they continued this conflict by embargoeing the isaland quite ineffectivley and they still continue this conflict with refusing to talk to the Sheepstan government.

1) You started this conflict with those politics. You're an evil dictator. Our objections are justified.

2) If by "ineffectivley" you mean the embargo is ineffective because there are now a total of 4 nations joining Alecrast in the Naval embargo and establishment of the No Fly Zone, with deployed forces many times what Sheepsta could realistically muster, then I suppose it's ineffective.

Originally posted by Sheep
If they want a war so bad, perhaps its time you found someone a little smaller to pick on. If Sheepsta is attacked, if any trading vessels connected through Sheepsta by treaty are attacked, if any futher attempt to detsbalise Sheepsta is made, we will consider it a decleration of war on Alecrasts part and they will then know the full might of Sheepstan arms.

1) You can bluster as much as you want, but any declarations made by you that aren't reasonable, such as your armed forces size and the size of your nuclear stockpile, then they will be summarily dismissed as godmodding by the judges, and on your head be it.

[Urban Ranger]

The Dominion of Noosland demands the illegal miltary junta in the state of Sheepsta to relinquish power back to the popularly elected government.

[Whaleboy]

The Libertarian Federation would like to offer a somewhat more reasonable response, by cautiously welcoming the statement made by Mr Dunning.

Any moves to peace or diplomatic solutions are preferable over continued tension, and after peaceful, productive relations have been established, we can see about pushing for a governmental change, but for now, Dunning is in actual power in Sheepsta, and whether or not that is legal but that is a separate issue. There can be no question of the fact that if we want to deal with Sheepsta, we have to deal with Dunning.

[Drogue]

Archaic: The Court is not able to impose one nations morals upon another, therefore unless you can show that Sheepsta has broken a treaty that it has signed, and continues to break a treaty that is is a member of, then a blockade is illegal. Therefore Sheepsta's first proposal must come into place. It is a illegal blockade and must be removed. You are fine to defend your nation, and you are welcome to remove your trade with Sheepsta, however you are not allowed to affect, illegally, the trade between 2 nations of which you are no part, ie. Sheepsta and an independent nation. You are welcome to impose yoiurn own sanctions, but not those of other nations.

Point's 3 and 4

3/A committance to no pre-emptive nuclear strikes
4/A possible re-entry of Sheepsta to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty

seem sensible. Indeed, I would hope yhat both nations aready have a no pre emtive nuke policy in place, and Sheepsta is offering an issue that will increase stability and safety, the return to the non-proliferation treaty, in return.

Points 2 and 5

2/ A possible non-aggression pact and a possible start of international trade between the two nations
5/Recognition of both governments by both governments.

are completely up to Alecrast and Sheepsta, although I do note that Sheepsta wishes to engage in talks and Alecrast refuses. I urge Alecrast to reconsider, however it is up to Archaic.

Whatever your countries policies are, is of little importance to anyone else. What is important, is the stability of the region. The blockade must be removed, and both nations must not launch Nukes. All nukes fired will be targeted by the CND-3 matrix that was launched many years (RL: weeks) ago, the 3rd versions of the Akirian missile shield, which has a success rate of 95%. This has cost over 30 Billion USD to produce and perfect, the original, CND-1 being launched decades ago (Christmas time) with the ISS. Akiria will look very strongly against any nation that launches nuclear weapons.

[Urban Ranger]

It is clear that the so called Armed Republic of Sheepsta seized power through an illegal coup, thus it cannot be recognised as a legitimate representation of the people of Sheepsta. This illegal government must relinquish power.

[Mr. President]

/me carefully tiptoes around Karakas' "Corrupt Dictatorship" rating and the "State of Democracy in Karakas" thread

[Urban Ranger]

Oh, is that right? Thanks for telling.

[Mr. President]

You'd have found out sooner or later. Probably.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
Archaic: The Court is not able to impose one nations morals upon another, therefore unless you can show that Sheepsta has broken a treaty that it has signed, and continues to break a treaty that is is a member of, then a blockade is illegal.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=88377

On the 2nd Page, Urban Ranger clearly shows that Sheepsta has done exactly that. Claims made since by Sheep that the government he just deposed not being a member of the treaties dispite every previous government in Sheepsta (Including the Protectorates) being a member of them are retro-RPing (ie. Changing something accepted as fact after the event for one's benifit), and non-consistant with RP (For them to have not been a member of the treaty would have set off a diplomatic incident just like this, which clearly didn't happen), thus godmodding.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=89383

Sheep clearly selling Nuclear Weapons

Originally posted by Drogue
Therefore Sheepsta's first proposal must come into place. It is a illegal blockade and must be removed. You are fine to defend your nation, and you are welcome to remove your trade with Sheepsta, however you are not allowed to affect, illegally, the trade between 2 nations of which you are no part, ie. Sheepsta and an independent nation. You are welcome to impose yoiurn own sanctions, but not those of other nations.

The Coalition blockade of Alecrast, Centralis, Noosland, and others, will stand. It is legal. What is not legal is the Sheepstan Military Junta, which we are trying to pressure to relinquish power through the force of these sanctions, crippling his economy and ability to wage war.

Originally posted by Drogue
Point's 3 and 4 seem sensible. Indeed, I would hope yhat both nations aready have a no pre emtive nuke policy in place, and Sheepsta is offering an issue that will increase stability and safety, the return to the non-proliferation treaty, in return.

Him doing something that should be expected of all nations is no concession. Furthermore, it does not address the issue of him being an illegal military Junta.

Originally posted by Drogue
Points 2 and 5 are completely up to Alecrast and Sheepsta, although I do note that Sheepsta wishes to engage in talks and Alecrast refuses. I urge Alecrast to reconsider, however it is up to Archaic.

You urge Alecrast to reconsider, but you don't consider the fact that Alecrast refuses on grounds easily justified. Why are you so ready to accept an illegal government?

Originally posted by Drogue
Whatever your countries policies are, is of little importance to anyone else. What is important, is the stability of the region. The blockade must be removed, and both nations must not launch Nukes. All nukes fired will be targeted by the CND-3 matrix that was launched many years (RL: weeks) ago, the 3rd versions of the Akirian missile shield, which has a success rate of 95%. This has cost over 30 Billion USD to produce and perfect, the original, CND-1 being launched decades ago (Christmas time) with the ISS. Akiria will look very strongly against any nation that launches nuclear weapons.

Stability of the region be damned. Your appeasement policies stink of Britain during the great war. They will work in the short term, but in the long term could be the ruin of us all. Illegal military Juntas that oppress their citizens, threaten nuclear war and sell nuclear weapons to nations and terrorists are not to be tollerated. Stability is better served by overthrowing such regimes, not allowing them to continue unchecked.

[Mr. President]

If Akiria objects but does not interfere, let Akiria talk all it wants if that makes it feel better.

Sheepsta is in the backyard of Alecrast and Noosland and Karakas and Centralis, not Akiria, and the former countries will deal with the problem in their backyard.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
It is clear that the so called Armed Republic of Sheepsta seized power through an illegal coup, thus it cannot be recognised as a legitimate representation of the people of Sheepsta. This illegal government must relinquish power.

What makes a government illegal? OOC: It is Sheeps nation,a nd if he wants to have a revolution and have a dictator, he can /OOC Just because it is not a democracy? It is not for other nations to impose. If there is a problem with the leader, it is an internal struggle, not one that involves other nations. When Sheepsta attacks, or does soemthing else to affect another nation, it becomes international business. Until then, it is a Sheepstan issue.

Originally posted by Archaic
Claims made since by Sheep that the government he just deposed not being a member of the treaties dispite every previous government in Sheepsta (Including the Protectorates) being a member of them are retro-RPing (ie. Changing something accepted as fact after the event for one's benifit), and non-consistant with RP (For them to have not been a member of the treaty would have set off a diplomatic incident just like this, which clearly didn't happen), thus godmodding.

No, Sheep said he withdrew from the treaties. That is not retro-RPing. Retro Rpig would be changign what he has said in the passed. Sheepm stated

All connections Sheepsta has to nuclear non-proliferation or first strike treaties are to be broken.

He did not say he wasn't a member in the passed, he said he withdrew.

Originally posted by Archaic
The Coalition blockade of Alecrast, Centralis, Noosland, and others, will stand. It is legal. What is not legal is the Sheepstan Military Junta, which we are trying to pressure to relinquish power through the force of these sanctions, crippling his economy and ability to wage war.

It is not legal. It is not legal for one nation to impose its will on another, that is violating sovereignty. If you wish to remove trade between your nation and Sheepsta, that is fine, but other nations wish to trade with Sheepsta, and that is not yours to stop.

Originally posted by Archaic
Him doing something that should be expected of all nations is no concession. Furthermore, it does not address the issue of him being an illegal military Junta

Expected? Under Alecrastian morals maybe. Is it no consession of yours to sign a non first strike treaty? That should be expected of every nation. As should respecting sovereignty. The Junta is not illegal. Just like the revolution in Akiria was not illegal. It is only illegal if it is illegal under their domestic law, since it is a domestic issue.

Originally posted by Archaic
You urge Alecrast to reconsider, but you don't consider the fact that Alecrast refuses on grounds easily justified. Why are you so ready to accept an illegal government?

Because it is not illegal. it is only illegal if it is under Sheepstan law. I accept the rulers of every nation, except one where another nation has conquered it (impossible in NS).

Originally posted by Archaic
Stability of the region be damned.

Nice to see you have the regions best interests at heart.

Originally posted by Archaic
Your appeasement policies stink of Britain during the great war.

That would involved Sheepsta being a power that wishes to take other nations, which I have seen no such intent of. It would also involved Sheepsta being one of the most powerful military nations in the world, when hald of the Akirian army, posted in Zetaris, is far more powerful than it's is. Sheepsta is no threat.

Originally posted by Archaic
They will work in the short term, but in the long term could be the ruin of us all. Illegal military Juntas that oppress their citizens, threaten nuclear war and sell nuclear weapons to nations and terrorists are not to be tollerated. Stability is better served by overthrowing such regimes, not allowing them to continue unchecked.

That is wrong. Stability is best served without pre emptive strikes, and with only interfering when they start other things. (OOC: This was proven by an Oxford Game Theoriest looking at "*** for tat" simulations, which create the most stability, even though they allow peaceful but illegal systems to remain in place. /OOC) Illegal blockades will not be tolerated. They can threaten nuclear war all they want. They will not use them. Akirias CMD systems will remove the threat of nukes, as it has done for many years. Stability is best served by the absense of wars. I do not promote appeasement, simply inaction, until we have a reason to act. We should have stopped hitler as soon as he marched into Austria, when he first acted outside his nation.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
If Akiria objects but does not interfere, let Akiria talk all it wants if that makes it feel better.

Akiria will defend any nation that is attacked, as we have promised to do. That blockade is illegal, and must be removed. The legitmacy of the Sheepsta ruler is not your concern, only their foreign actions. When they have actually attacked someone, then it will be legal. At the moment, there is no basis for it, expect that you do not like the ruler of Sheep. You don't get to approve the ruler of every nation. If necessary, Akiria is willing to use force to enforce the law of national sovereignty. Something which this illegal blockade is violating.

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Sheepsta is in the backyard of Alecrast and Noosland and Karakas and Centralis, not Akiria, and the former countries will deal with the problem in their backyard.

Sheepsta is very near to Zetaris, Akiria's colony, which is protected by the Akirian army. It is in our backyard. And we will deal with any problem legally. However at the moment, the only problem is that actions of those countries in this blockade.

[GeneralTacticus]

No, Sheep said he withdrew from the treaties. That is not retro-RPing. Retro Rpig would be changign what he has said in the passed. Sheepm stated

Quote:

All connections Sheepsta has to nuclear non-proliferation or first strike treaties are to be broken.

He did not say he wasn't a member in the passed, he said he withdrew.

*boggle* I didn't think logic could twisted that far. Would you care to explain how one could "withdraw" from something one was enver part of? It's be like Somalia anouncing that it would "withdraw" from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, when they were never a member in the first place.

[Drogue]

Oh sorry, my bad. I thought Archaic was makign the opposite point, that he said he was never a member but he was. My bad. If he was never a member, then he was never a member, and is not now. He did not withdraw, but the fact that he is not a member stands, and so it is legal for him to sell nukes. What's the problem?

[GeneralTacticus]

He did not withdraw, but the fact that he is not a member stands, and so it is legal for him to sell nukes. What's the problem?

The problem is that, by selling nukes on the open market, he is creating an enormous destabilising influence - which you, he who is fixated on "the stability of the region" (whatever the hell that means) are completely ignoring. If a Sheepstan nuke wound up in the hans of the Eletharian apartheid forces, or another terrorist group in the region, and was detonated within a major city and caused millions of deaths - hardly a far-fetched scenario, given who he's been selling to, and the lack of any possibility of monitoring what they do with them - then would you admit you had been in error by not preventing him from doing so?

[Drogue]

I am not fixated on stability at all. I am fixated on respecting sovereignty, on nations imposing on others, and on legality. There are many nations that have not signed the non-proliferation treaty, and they are not bound by the limits imposed by that treaty. Why single out Sheepsta? If he wants to trade, that is his business. Should we stop people trading other things such as medicines because there is a possibility they could be used against another nation? I would be saddened by such a disaster, but the end does not justify the means, we cannot do an illegal act simply because it may prevent a disaster. It is not our place to say whether or not Sheepsta should be allowed to trade, it is up to Sheepsta and the nation involved only. If they choose to use it, then that nation will pay, and if the nuke is launched by an ICBM, it will be intercepted.

[Archaic]

Originally posted by Drogue
Expected? Under Alecrastian morals maybe. Is it no consession of yours to sign a non first strike treaty? That should be expected of every nation. As should respecting sovereignty. The Junta is not illegal. Just like the revolution in Akiria was not illegal. It is only illegal if it is illegal under their domestic law, since it is a domestic issue.

Kindly explain to me how many nations IRL would tollerate a nuclear power not being signatory to such treaties? It is not a matter of morals, it is a matter of the responsibilities and expectations of a nation on the world stage.

Actually, the revolution in Akiria *was* illegal. Explain to me how overthrowing the established government by force (In your case, mind controlling all the citizens through an as yet still unspecified means, and don't try and deny it again like you did in the regional board before, because it's all in the threads) is *not* illegal. We tollerate it in your case because you're not warlike nor opressing your populace. In the case of Sheepsta, it is a clear case of the military overthrowing the established regime.

As for the bullshit about "It is only illegal if it is illegal under their domestic law, since it is a domestic issue.", I hope you realise that an illegal government retroactivly declaring its actions legal is illegal.

Originally posted by Drogue
It is not legal. It is not legal for one nation to impose its will on another, that is violating sovereignty. If you wish to remove trade between your nation and Sheepsta, that is fine, but other nations wish to trade with Sheepsta, and that is not yours to stop.

There is currently no soverign nation of Sheepsta to violate the sovereignty of. There is only an illegal military junta. The blockade will continue.

Originally posted by Drogue
Nice to see you have the regions best interests at heart.

Strawman. If it's a choice between short term stability (Appeasing Sheepsta, not cracking down, letting it grow into a power, and getting into a bigger war later) and long term stability (Removing the Sheepstan Military Junta, restoring a democratically elected government to the nation [Something it hasn't really had since the protectorates], preventing a bigger war in the long run), I choose the second option.

Originally posted by Drogue
That would involved Sheepsta being a power that wishes to take other nations, which I have seen no such intent of. It would also involved Sheepsta being one of the most powerful military nations in the world, when hald of the Akirian army, posted in Zetaris, is far more powerful than it's is. Sheepsta is no threat.

Your failure to read all the threads is not my problem Drogue. Sheep is only starting to back down here because he's realising that he's totally overmatched.

As for Sheepsta being "one of the most powerful military nations in the world", it's irrelevant if he is or not, because simply by the virtue that he is a nuclear power which has used nukes in the region on other nations in the past, and which is currently selling nuclear weapons to terrorists and countries not signatory to the nuclear treaties, he presents a clear and present threat to regional stability.

And how and why exactly did half the Akirian Army get there BTW? Seems rather overkill to have that massive a force on an island that could easily muster its own SDF.

Originally posted by Drogue
That is wrong. Stability is best served without pre emptive strikes, and with only interfering when they start other things. (OOC: This was proven by an Oxford Game Theoriest looking at "*** for tat" simulations, which create the most stability, even though they allow peaceful but illegal systems to remain in place. /OOC) Illegal blockades will not be tolerated. They can threaten nuclear war all they want. They will not use them. Akirias CMD systems will remove the threat of nukes, as it has done for many years. Stability is best served by the absense of wars. I do not promote appeasement, simply inaction, until we have a reason to act. We should have stopped hitler as soon as he marched into Austria, when he first acted outside his nation.

Short term stability =/= Long term stability

We are not advocating a pre-emptive strike, if you haven't bothered to check. We have established this blockade, which is not illegal, to put pressure on the regime to hand over power to a democratically elected government. They cannot afford this sort of blockade for long, simply because they could not possibily support their nuclear stockpile.

And BTW, with how you've described them, I consider your CMD systems ubertech, and thus even if it would be to my disadvantage, I will ignore cannon them until you restore them to a reasonable level. Besides, the Alecrast/Centralis ABM shield will be more than sufficient. There is no need for you to get involved in an issue which doesn't concern you.

Inaction in this case is appeasement. You have a reason to act. An illegal military Junta, which broke international treaties, is selling Nuclear Weapons to terrorists and nations not a signatory to the treaties.

And you should've stopped Hitler when he started violating the treaty Germany was forced to sign at the end of the first world war, which he did before he even invaded Poland.

Originally posted by Drogue
Akiria will defend any nation that is attacked, as we have promised to do. That blockade is illegal, and must be removed. The legitmacy of the Sheepsta ruler is not your concern, only their foreign actions. When they have actually attacked someone, then it will be legal. At the moment, there is no basis for it, expect that you do not like the ruler of Sheep. You don't get to approve the ruler of every nation. If necessary, Akiria is willing to use force to enforce the law of national sovereignty. Something which this illegal blockade is violating.

We repeat. There is no legitimate nation to violate the sovereignty of. The blockade will remain. Threats of force against Alecrast, Centralis, Noosland, and everyone else (Far too many nations to name) only serve to reflect badly on yourself.
Furthermore, what law, and how the hell would it apply to Sheepsta, which isn't a member of the regional court anyway? Who died and made you regional policeman? By your own arguements here, you have no authority to intervene in an issue which doesn't concern you. You aren't the nation with a corrupt military junta right on your border.
In fact, I'll repeat that point, since you so casually said "The legitmacy of the Sheepsta ruler is not your concern, only their foreign actions." They haven't attacked someone, but they have broken treaties and are selling nukes to terrorists and other nations who aren't signatory to the treaties.

Originally posted by Drogue
Sheepsta is very near to Zetaris, Akiria's colony, which is protected by the Akirian army. It is in our backyard. And we will deal with any problem legally. However at the moment, the only problem is that actions of those countries in this blockade.

A colony which didn't toe the line of its mother country and condemned the Sheepstan junta. As for the rest, our actions are perfectly legal.

Originally posted by Drogue
Oh sorry, my bad. I thought Archaic was makign the opposite point, that he said he was never a member but he was.

No, that was actually what I was saying. Sheep said elsewhere in the thread (Honestly Drogue, do you ever read all these things? You constantly ask for "proof" of various things that you'd see if you only bothered to read the recent threads about the issue, which you should be doing anyway) that the Unified Republics of Sheepsta, which took charge after the Protectorates, weren't ever a part of the treaties, and thus that he wasn't breaking any treaties. Now, he never actually explicitly stated that he was a part of those treaties, however every former Sheepstan government, including the Protectorates, was, and thus we all assumed that the Unified Republics were. If they weren't going to follow in the footsteps of their predecessors, he should've said so then.

Declaring it now just when it's convenient makes no sense in RP. If it had been the case then there would've been a massive diplomatic incident over the issue. That obviously didn't happen.

[Whaleboy]

We do not recognise the term "illegal government", as the people in charge of a given nation are by definition its government. Whether we like the manner in which it came to power is entirely irrelevant to its position, like I said, if we want to deal with Sheepsta, we deal with Dunning.

Any Sheepstan missile, rocket or nuclear-missile carrying aircraft launched will be destroyed by our anti-missile capability on ships, subs, air and space-craft. If not by us, then like Drogue said, someone else will do it!

It is not the business of the international community to dictate what is right, what is wrong, and what manner of government a nation should have. Certainly apply that to your own nation, and perhaps use diplomacy (carefully), but you cannot force your own subjective choice onto another.

Only if treaties are broken or nations are attacked, is there any possible justification for imposing oneself onto another (the definition of a war).

[Archaic]

Originally posted by elijah
We do not recognise the term "illegal government", as the people in charge of a given nation are by definition its government. Whether we like the manner in which it came to power is entirely irrelevant to its position, like I said, if we want to deal with Sheepsta, we deal with Dunning.

We recognise this. It's just to show Akira that, where he said...

"As should respecting sovereignty. The Junta is not illegal...It is only illegal if it is illegal under their domestic law, since it is a domestic issue."

...that he was incorrect, because it clearly was illegal under the domestic law.

[Sheep]

Field Marshall again reiterates that as the Sheepstan Constituion had been suspended after the parliamentry bombings, rule of election had ceased in Sheepsta. When President Ginakis was deposed by military revolt, it was indeed withing the bounds of Sheepstan law.

As testimony to the legitamacy of the Sheepstan regime, Field Marshall Dunning has ratified the nuclear non-proliferation treaty ending the warhead export program.

While we have made it Sheepstan law not to pre-emptive strike using nuclear weapons, we still reserve the right to use these if attacked through conventional means.

We accept with great respect the recent actions of the Akirian government and give them our deepest gratitude. If they or anyone else who still has no problem with the government of Sheepsta would like to enter into a defensive alliance, we would be most willing.

[GeneralTacticus]

Why single out Sheepsta? If he wants to trade, that is his business. Should we stop people trading other things such as medicines because there is a possibility they could be used against another nation?

One again, we see your amazing powers of logic-bending demonstrated. Medicines are non-military in nature; nukes, quite transparently, are not.

[Sheep]

Nuclear power and the know how to make reactors part of the packages sold to El Salvadoristan and Pharoh Garnoses [sic] are not necessarily military.

[GeneralTacticus]

I'm not concerned with them (not much, anyway). However, the sale of actual nuclear warheads is inherently military, and don't bother trying to deny this, because trying to do so will only embarass you.

[Sheep]

It isn't El Salvadoristan has stated that both warheads will be used to fuel their new reactors, the plans from from the same sale came from.

While Sheepsta cannot be held accountable by what El Salvadoristan and Pharoh Ganoses do with their new toys, we do reiteerate that the Sheepstan government has ratified the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and as such this prgram is now defunct.

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Archaic
Kindly explain to me how many nations IRL would tollerate a nuclear power not being signatory to such treaties? It is not a matter of morals, it is a matter of the responsibilities and expectations of a nation on the world stage.

Easily, it's a matter of choice. The signing of that treaty was optional, not compulsory.

Originally posted by Archaic
Actually, the revolution in Akiria *was* illegal. Explain to me how overthrowing the established government by force (In your case, mind controlling all the citizens through an as yet still unspecified means, and don't try and deny it again like you did in the regional board before, because it's all in the threads)

I have never said that it was with mind control, you have twisted that from the start. It was not illegal, Akizeta was operating under its own juristiction. It had the authority to lock down the war room, and it did. No laws broken.

Originally posted by Archaic
As for the bullshit about "It is only illegal if it is illegal under their domestic law, since it is a domestic issue.", I hope you realise that an illegal government retroactivly declaring its actions legal is illegal.

Yes, but show me which Sheepstan law Dunning broke. That would make it illegal. It is an internal matter, with internal law.

Originally posted by Archaic
There is currently no soverign nation of Sheepsta to violate the sovereignty of. There is only an illegal military junta. The blockade will continue.

Yes there is. That government is illegal. All nations have the right to self rule. That does not mean democracy, which you seem intent on forcing onto Sheepsta, even though it has proved unstable there in the past, that means that Sheepsta has the right to sovereignty, like any other nation. It is still a sovereign nation.

Originally posted by Archaic
If it's a choice between short term stability (Appeasing Sheepsta, not cracking down, letting it grow into a power, and getting into a bigger war later) and long term stability (Removing the Sheepstan Military Junta, restoring a democratically elected government to the nation [Something it hasn't really had since the protectorates], preventing a bigger war in the long run), I choose the second option.

However it is not your choice to make.

Originally posted by Archaic
As for Sheepsta being "one of the most powerful military nations in the world", it's irrelevant if he is or not, because simply by the virtue that he is a nuclear power which has used nukes in the region on other nations in the past

No he hasn't. He threatened, but to my knowledge, he has not fired a nuke at anyone.

Originally posted by Archaic
is currently selling nuclear weapons to terrorists and countries not signatory to the nuclear treaties

Which terrorists? Yes to other nations, but nations don't have to sign that treaty. It was optional. Indeed, trading with terrorists, though strongly frowned upon, is not illegal.

Originally posted by Archaic
he presents a clear and present threat to regional stability.

Alecrast has enforced blockades and invaded another nation . It is hardly the model of stability. Sheepsta has not invaded other nations. Selling weapons is legal, unless they sign otherwise.

Originally posted by Archaic
And how and why exactly did half the Akirian Army get there BTW? Seems rather overkill to have that massive a force on an island that could easily muster its own SDF.

Zetaris has no army of it's own, hence my title is Foreign Minister for Akiria and Protector of Zetaris. The force has been trickling there from the 1/4 of the army that was there at the founding, due to instability in the region. Zetaris was set up without a military, as it was supposed to be a haven. It is protected by Akiria.

Originally posted by Archaic
We are not advocating a pre-emptive strike, if you haven't bothered to check. We have established this blockade, which is not illegal, to put pressure on the regime to hand over power to a democratically elected government. They cannot afford this sort of blockade for long, simply because they could not possibily support their nuclear stockpile.

The blockade is illegal, as it is countries violating sovereignty of Sheepsta to trade, and other nations to trade with it.

Originally posted by Archaic
And BTW, with how you've described them, I consider your CMD systems ubertech, and thus even if it would be to my disadvantage, I will ignore cannon them until you restore them to a reasonable level.

Since they have had huge amounts of funding (over 10 times the yearly budget for the US defense shield) and have been over 15 years in development, I don't. The first one was not accurate, and was unreliable, but has been modified and we are now on the 3rd model. It is liek the US Missile Defense Shield, except with 10 times the funding, and thus instead of a ~70% accuracy, it has about a 90-95% accuracy. You think there are sum gains for such huge resources pilled into them What is so ubertech about a more accurate system than the one the US is building, given 10 times the funding and teams of scientists and engineers working on them?

Originally posted by Archaic
Besides, the Alecrast/Centralis ABM shield will be more than sufficient. There is no need for you to get involved in an issue which doesn't concern you.

Yes it does. As Delegate and Chief Judge, international events on this scale do concern me.

Originally posted by Archaic
Inaction in this case is appeasement. You have a reason to act. An illegal military Junta, which broke international treaties, is selling Nuclear Weapons to terrorists and nations not a signatory to the treaties.

He withdrew from the treaties, and he can sell to who he wants. Inaction against Alecrast for this illegal blockade is appeasement too. It is not appeasement like the UK and Hitler however.

Originally posted by Archaic
And you should've stopped Hitler when he started violating the treaty Germany was forced to sign at the end of the first world war, which he did before he even invaded Poland.

In your opinion. I think with a less harsh Treaty of Versailles, as proposed by the English delegate, WWII would have never happend. Hitler was aggrieved at the treatment of Germany after WWI. That treaty went too far, and so I don't thinkw e should have invaded when he broke it, although it would ahve been justified and legal.

Originally posted by Archaic
We repeat. There is no legitimate nation to violate the sovereignty of. The blockade will remain. Threats of force against Alecrast, Centralis, Noosland, and everyone else (Far too many nations to name) only serve to reflect badly on yourself.

And threats of violance against Sheepsta reflect badly on you. If a nation commits and illegal act, puts up a blockade against a nation that has not attacked anyone, that is not right. I will seek to have that blockade removed. That blockade is illegal, as Sheepsta is a nation, and you have violated it's sovereignty.

Originally posted by Archaic
Furthermore, what law

At the begining of the court, we all agreed that nations ahve the right to national sovereignty, to rule themselves. We said that nations should not impose their opinions on other nations, as you are doing.

Originally posted by Archaic
and how the hell would it apply to Sheepsta, which isn't a member of the regional court anyway?

Every nation has a right to sovereignty, as we agreed at the begining. It was one of the reasons why we vote against many UN resolutions, that each nation has a right to choose for itself.

Originally posted by Archaic
Who died and made you regional policeman?

The people when the elected me delegate and chief judge. Moreover, this is for any nation to stop illegal actions. You are all ganging up on Sheepsta without provocation. That is wrong, and we intend to stop it. Who elected YOU policeman to blockade Sheepsta without trial, and without provocation. You are the one intervening, we just seek an end to that intervention.

Originally posted by Archaic
By your own arguements here, you have no authority to intervene in an issue which doesn't concern you. You aren't the nation with a corrupt military junta right on your border.

Yes I am. Zetaris. Im will not intervene when Sheepsta is left alone. As long as some seek to oppress Sheepsta, I will seek to defend it.

Originally posted by Archaic
In fact, I'll repeat that point, since you so casually said "The legitmacy of the Sheepsta ruler is not your concern, only their foreign actions." They haven't attacked someone, but they have broken treaties and are selling nukes to terrorists and other nations who aren't signatory to the treaties.

No they haven't. They withdrew from those treaties, if they were ever part of them.

Originally posted by Archaic
A colony which didn't toe the line of its mother country and condemned the Sheepstan junta. As for the rest, our actions are perfectly legal.

A colony whose leader was too busy to comment.

Originally posted by Archaic
No, that was actually what I was saying.

That's what I thought, however GT said differently.

Originally posted by Archaic
(Honestly Drogue, do you ever read all these things? You constantly ask for "proof" of various things that you'd see if you only bothered to read the recent threads about the issue, which you should be doing anyway)

I ask for proof of his wrongdoing, because to be legal, you would have to have proof to have a blockade. AnNd yes, I do read them, but you seem to interpret much differently. I like to know what others think of as proof, so I can counter then, if necessary.

Originally posted by Archaic
that the Unified Republics of Sheepsta, which took charge after the Protectorates, weren't ever a part of the treaties, and thus that he wasn't breaking any treaties. Now, he never actually explicitly stated that he was a part of those treaties, however every former Sheepstan government, including the Protectorates, was, and thus we all assumed that the Unified Republics were. If they weren't going to follow in the footsteps of their predecessors, he should've said so then.

Why? Why do you assume he is still a member when he has not stated it, whith a new nation. It is up to him to say. Untied Sheepsta is a new nation, and thus isn't subject to North and South Sheepsta agreements. It started afresh. You should have asked him if you wished to know if he was still in them. He never stated he was, so I assumed he wasn't. Indeed, whatever else, he is now not a member, thus his actions are legal.

Originally posted by Archaic
because it clearly was illegal under the domestic law

Show me Sheepsta's domestic law that he broke? I didn't think he has even published his laws.

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Medicines are non-military in nature; nukes, quite transparently, are not.

Tell that to the UN with regards to Iraq. medicines can be used to make chemical and biological weapons. Also, weapons trading is not illegal. Frowned upon yes, and thus withdrawing trade from your antion woudl be an option, but it is not illegal.

[Archaic]

Too late to make a fully reply and rebuttal, I'll do it tomorrow, however I'll make one correction to what you've said.

invaded another nation

Alecrast has never done any such thing. We have enforced a blockade against an illegitimate government in the interests of regional safety. These weapons cannot be allowed to get out.

[Mr. President]

I never heard of anybody being poisoned by penicillin.

And if you want my honest opinion, I think you, Drogue, and your friends on this forum get away with a hell of a lot of ubertech bubkis. Between 95% reliable ABM systems, artificial-intelligence rulers, and hyper-battleships, it's a wonder you don't rule the world.

[Whaleboy]

Is it unrealistic though? 95% ABM systems are theoretically very very simple. The physics certainly are very easy, ballistic missiles have a course that a GCSE physics student could predict. AI Rulers is perhaps stretching it a little, but looking at RL computer capacities, Akiria's IT sector, is it really unrealistic? My battleships use existing technology, but integrated and fine tuned to a much greater extent, if battleships were continued development from 1940's to today, we could expect stuff similar to what I have.