New Scenario: 2194 Days of War 1939 or 1936

[Pap1723]

Hey guys, I have begun working on a new version of my 2194 Days of War Gigamap scenario. I decided I wanted to make a completely open ended WWII scenario after playing some Hearts of Iron recently. It will still be primarily PBEM based, but I plan on making it playable for single player also. I haven't decided if I want to make it start in January 1939 or 1936 sometime like Hearts of Iron is, and I am open to suggestions as to when it should begin. I am leaning towards early 1939 because I have no way of being able to have all of the seperate countries taht did not join the Axis until later. I have decided on which countries to use mostly, but if anyone can come up with a better design as to who can control the French let me know.

Here are my preliminary ideas:
-Countries
-----Soviet Union
-----Japanse Empire
-----Axis (Germany, Romania, Austria, Italy, Chech)
-----Eastern Allies (much like Curt's Dictator Scenario Balkans, China)
-----USA
-----British Allies (UK, Norway, Low Countries, France)
-----Neutral Allies

-Technology is very expensive and it will be driven almost exclusively through trade generated by freight
-Roads will only be used to connect cities, there will not be road networks leading everywhere, roads will take longer to build than normal
-Railroads can be built, but the technology needs to be researched and it will take longer than usual to build a railroad
-Industry (mines) can be built on any terrain except for mountains. It will take a very long time to build but it will allow for any city to become an industrial center
-Technology will be militarily focused and will allow each player and country to focus on what they want to build, tanks, navy, airforce etc.
-Less wonders will be placed at the start of the scenario
-Make it very detrimental to the player for focusing exclusivley on one branch of the military by making each additional unit much better than the first

-USA will start furthest behind in military tech, have good economic technology, and very good industrial technology
-USA units will be cheap, but weak
-Axis units are expensive, but strong
-Japan will have the best infantry
-Soviets will have cheap untis wth average strength
-British units will be average cost and average strengthed
-Eastern units are very good on the defense
-Neutrals cannot build more units

As many of you will notice, many of these ideas came from CurtSibling who I feel is probably the best scenario creator right now. His ideas are very, very good and hopefully they will make this scenario very good also.

Pap

[curtsibling]

Shucks!

Thanks pap!
I am just one of many!
IMHO, We all do great work for the CIV2 community.

You made a brilliant enlargement of a classic.
And I can't wait to see a new awesome version of your already great work!

[Eivind IV]

Ahhh...we can never get enough ww2 scenarios! I voted 1939, because I intend to make a 'Road To War' (1936) myself

[jim panse]

Hey Pap, that would be a very, very good idea! If I could help you, please feel free to tell me.

Some thoughts, though :

* Why you want to give Czechia to Germany in January 1939? As far as I know Hitler made the rest of the Czech State to a protectorate on March 15th/16th, 1939.

* Romania joined the Axis not in 1939. Hitler was really concerned about the Soviet pressure upon Romania after the Destruction of Poland.

* If it´s possible you should not make Italy a member of the Axis Juggernaut too early. Mussolini joined the war on June 10th 1940 and wanted to fight his "own" war for some kind of renewed "Imperio Romano".

* I would not make Norway and the Low Countries Allies from the beginning. Maybe this could be solved via events. For example: Once Germany has researched or received - let´s say - Dependency on "Swedish Ore increases" the cites in Norway would be emtied and Allied units placed near them to simulate the fact that a country becomes an enemy of the Axis.

All in all I confess that this sounds even more interesting than your superb 2194 days of war giga scenario. If you need something I would be glad to help you. Anyway, Good Luck!

[Pap1723]

After I started working on the map and placing cities, I decided that I cannot find a way to make a scenario I'll be happy with starting in 1939 or 1936. Instead I am having the scenario start in May of 1940 with the Germans ready to attack into France. The German player will still have the option of whether or not to attack into France, but they will start the scenario ready to attack.

I found what is quite possibly the best website for historical scenario creators. It has the populations of every single major and most of the minor cities in the world. Using this website, I cleared the map and began placing cities from the beginning again. All of the city sizes are now completely accurate according to the website. Here is the link for everyone else...
http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html

I posted a picture of Europe, let me know if you think anything should be moved, changed, etc, and let me know if there are any ideas you have.

Pap

[Pap1723]

All in all I confess that this sounds even more interesting than your superb 2194 days of war giga scenario. If you need something I would be glad to help you. Anyway, Good Luck!

Thanks Jim, as of right now, I don't think I need any help, but I know that playtesting is going to require a hell of a lot of people.

Pap

[jim panse]

Wroclaw and Lodz are misplaced.

IMHO, you should name Lodz Wroclaw (though I think that Breslau (the german name of Wroclaw) would be better becuase the city was german for nearly 1000 years) and Lodz should be renamed to Krakow (the german governeur had his seat there).

[Arthedain]

Vienna, Bucharest, Budapest and Belgrad are misplaced. Vienna, Budapest should be on Donau and Bucharest right next to it.

[Cifer Almasy]

Good Ideas Pap!
Jimmys/Curts and my sscenario also begins in 1936!!!
So its nice you start in 1940 (so its not all the same). A litll tip: Try to keep citysizes low so you won´t have so much problems with overdone terrains - but thats just what I´d do...

PS: I miss Königsberg!

@Curt: Check your PM!!!

[La Fayette]

I am currently playing the scenario named '2194 days of war' (that is why I ask my question here).
I downloaded from CFC and the authors are named Captain Nemo and Alex the Magnificent.
I play as the British ...until they discover 'Radar'.
When they discover 'Radar' the game crashes.

(I suspect that 'Radar' is the last tech that the British are 'allowed' to research, but the authors seem to have forgotten to allow the British to research future techs, and that's why the game crashes)

Is there something I can do to go on playing the scenario despite that bug ?

[EmuGod]

Why not make the neutrals barbarians, with particularly strong infantry and add another civilization in their place?

[fairline]

Pap - silly point this, but speaking as a Mancunian (someone from Manchester) you need to rename Manchester to Hull or maybe Newcastle. Manchester is in the North West of England, near Liverpool. Birmingham should be bigger than Glasgow, as well.

[Pap1723]

Wroclaw and Lodz are misplaced. IMHO, you should name Lodz Wroclaw (though I think that Breslau (the german name of Wroclaw) would be better becuase the city was german for nearly 1000 years) and Lodz should be renamed to Krakow (the german governeur had his seat there).

Do you mean that I should rename Wroclaw, Breslau and Lodz, Krakow??

Good Ideas Pap!
Jimmys/Curts and my sscenario also begins in 1936!!!
So its nice you start in 1940 (so its not all the same). A litll tip: Try to keep citysizes low so you won?t have so much problems with overdone terrains - but thats just what I?d do...
PS: I miss K?sberg!

Good, we'll have a little variation in the WWII scenario community. I used the city sizes that I did because they represent the population of the cities at the time with Civilization II's population. Many of the bigger cities are on a terrain that has a lot of food. I am going to lower the food needed for support of each citizen (I think this is possible) and increase the size of the food box so taht it takes a lot for cities to grow any larger.

Why not make the neutrals barbarians, with particularly strong infantry and add another civilization in their place?

Well, the reason I didn't is because I don't know much about how Barbarians work as a Civilization, are they always at war with everyone? How do I keep them proudicing units, etc...? Would I then use France as a civilization??

Pap - silly point this, but speaking as a Mancunian (someone from Manchester) you need to rename Manchester to Hull or maybe Newcastle. Manchester is in the North West of England, near Liverpool. Birmingham should be bigger than Glasgow, as well.

I chose Manchester because it was a bigger city than the other 2 in 1938 when I have population sizes for. How important is it that I change it?? According to the website where I based all of my population statistics on, Birmingham and Glasgow had very similar populations during 1938. Since then however, Glasgow's population has lost more than 400,000 people so it is much smaller than Birmingham.

Pap

[Yurt]

Looks pretty good. I would definately make France a separate civ. Making the neutrals barbarians isn't a bad idea. Why don't you give them very strong, immobile units so they can't attack anyone and nobody can take them over. I would change Manchester because it is not only in the wrong place, but on the wrong coast. Also, based on your previous scenario (which was very good) I would put a lot more cities in Africa, especially Ethiopia.

[The Apologist]

Why are the United Kingdom and United States in two different civilisations, while Germany and Italy are in one?

If you're worried about a "Western Allied" civilisation being the 800lb gorilla, don't give them the tech for any industrial improvements apart from Factories and one type of Power Plant. Dub their Power Plant "Mobilization", and make it exceedingly expensive to maintain (relatively cheap to build, though). When the US enters the war (and I suggest using research for this), the WA have a tech that allows them to build the Hoover Dam, or, in this scenario, "US Mobilization".

In order to stop the American shipyards from churning out too many ships for the British (though surely they should build a few!), use the extra civ slot freed up to create "Borders" around US ports. You'll also want to use this to keep Italy out of the war, and perhaps to "sanitise" the B-L pact line.

Don't forget (like Alex and Nemo did) that certain neutral territories were occupied by the Allies - IIRC, the Azores and Canaries. This didn't, of course, start a war with Sweden

[Pap1723]

Looks pretty good. I would definately make France a separate civ. Making the neutrals barbarians isn't a bad idea. Why don't you give them very strong, immobile units so they can't attack anyone and nobody can take them over. I would change Manchester because it is not only in the wrong place, but on the wrong coast. Also, based on your previous scenario (which was very good) I would put a lot more cities in Africa, especially Ethiopia.

Making the neutrals barbarians would also allow me to start the scenario in April of 1939 right after the Dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. France will be the new civ that takes over control of the Neutral slot. Except here is the new problem...What French units to include, especially from the later years of the war when they were not producing new units...???

I'll post the units I have right now, I'll need your help to decide which to include and which to get rid of to make room for the new French units.

Pap

[Pap1723]

Here they are, many of them are Curt's because he is my favorite unit artist right now!

[Pap1723]

I was planning on making this scenario have only 1 units file, but would you guys prefer that there is not much military technology and more units through the use of multiple events and rules files??

Pap

[Dr Kellogg]

By sending a diplomat into a barbarian city, you make peace with them. You can also create an alliance with them via hex-editing.

Originally posted by Pap1723
I was planning on making this scenario have only 1 units file, but would you guys prefer that there is not much military technology and more units through the use of multiple events and rules files??

Pap

Do you think multiple unit files are necessary? I like both, but I prefer 1 unit file..

[jim panse]

Originally posted by Pap1723

Do you mean that I should rename Wroclaw, Breslau and Lodz, Krakow??

Pap

Wroclaw => Breslau

Lodz => Krakow

That´s exactly what I meant.

[fairline]

Originally posted by Pap1723

I chose Manchester because it was a bigger city than the other 2 in 1938 when I have population sizes for. How important is it that I change it?? According to the website where I based all of my population statistics on, Birmingham and Glasgow had very similar populations during 1938. Since then however, Glasgow's population has lost more than 400,000 people so it is much smaller than Birmingham.

Pap

..and Manchester still is bigger than Hull or Newcastle, or Liverpool, for that matter. The problem is it's not a coastal city and is west of the Pennines (the ridge of hills/mountains that runs down the central part of the North of England). It was an important industrial city and home of Avro, for example, who made the Lancaster bomber.

Placing it on the North East coast of England is somewhat like placing Detroit in New England, however. The important town for the shipping industry in the North-East was Newcastle; Tyneside (Newcastle), Clydeside (Glasgow) and Belfast were probably the biggest shipbuilding areas in the World prior to WW2. On these grounds alone I'd turn Manchester into Newcastle, although it pains me to say this, being a Manc.

BTW, I'd be interested to see that site with the population figures. Any chance you can post a link

[Pap1723]

By sending a diplomat into a barbarian city, you make peace with them. You can also create an alliance with them via hex-editing.

Great information, thanks!

Do you think multiple unit files are necessary? I like both, but I prefer 1 unit file...

In this scenario I also prefer 1 unit file. Should I perhaps not include any French units and instead just give the French all British units since we have no idea what they would have produced during the later years of the war?

Wroclaw => Breslau
Lodz => Krakow
That?s exactly what I meant.

Great, I'll fix it, but now Poland might look a little differently if they are a seperate coutnry from the start.

..and Manchester still is bigger than Hull or Newcastle, or Liverpool, for that matter. The problem is it's not a coastal city and is west of the Pennines (the ridge of hills/mountains that runs down the central part of the North of England). It was an important industrial city and home of Avro, for example, who made the Lancaster bomber.

Placing it on the North East coast of England is somewhat like placing Detroit in New England, however. The important town for the shipping industry in the North-East was Newcastle; Tyneside (Newcastle), Clydeside (Glasgow) and Belfast were probably the biggest shipbuilding areas in the World prior to WW2. On these grounds alone I'd turn Manchester into Newcastle, although it pains me to say this, being a Manc.

BTW, I'd be interested to see that site with the population figures. Any chance you can post a link

Thanks for the information about that area of England, very informative. I was considering turning Manchester into Leeds since during WWII Leeds had 700,000 plus people. I will look into Newcastle though, especially since you tell me it was an important shipyard.

Here is the link for you:
http://www.library.uu.nl/wesp/populstat/populhome.html

Pap

[curtsibling]

Yeah, baby!

I'm liking the look of this sceanrio!

Great work, Pap, my man!

[curtsibling]

Originally posted by Pap1723
Here they are, many of them are Curt's because he is my favorite unit artist right now!

Thanks!
Helping the CIV2 community is my biggest high!

[Yurt]

I wouldn't worry too much about the later French units. They shouldn't be designed as a human player, and they should be weak enough to be knocked out early in the game so their technology doesn't matter too much anyway. You probably just need a French infantry.

What would be really interesting would be if you simulated the Vichy France/Free France split. To do this you would need to put in all the French colonies in Africa and South America. I don't know if it's possible, but when Paris is captured, France should split with central Africa and the Caribbean colonies forming Free France and the rest stay as France.

Don't forget these details:

-I'm not sure when in May you are starting the scenario, but the Norway conflict was still going on at that time. Narvik was captured by the allies on May 28th and wasn't recaptured until June 8th.
-Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were still independant (annexed 21 July).
-Italians still had Ethiopia and were actually winning the war, they had a strong(ish) air force there and eventually forced the British out of Somalia (later in the year).
-Saudi Arabia shouldn't be British
In your earlier scenario, Prague and Iraq should also be independant, but it's probably too late for that now.

This is a great WW2 timeline, it helped me in my Civ3 scenario:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/1940.htm#top

[FiGu]

oh, and a another detail! Finland joined the axis first in 1941 summer.

[EmuGod]

Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary had also not joined the Axis until just before the invasion of Yugoslavia, if I recall correctly.

[Pap1723]

Here is an updated look at Europe, Russia, Asia and the United States respectively...

[jim panse]

I suggest you exchange Breslau and Krakow, Pap.

Also, the Netherlands and Belgium "entered" the war on May 10th, 1940, the day when Germany attacked. They should be neutral too.

And something concerning your units: I would think about giving the Germans only the medium tanks. On September 1st, 1939 there were not even 300 PzKw IV. The Wehrmacht attacked Poland mainly with PzKw I and II.

[OzzyKP]

You simply can't have the start date of 2194 Days of War be in 1936, you'll have to rename the scenario!

"3289 Days of War and Buildup to War"