China vs. India or Dictatorship vs. Democracy? - Page 3

Ecthy · June 22, 2003, 03:59

Colon, UR - doesn't this mean that once China opens all its systems it becomes bestest in everything? Why not?

Urban Ranger · June 22, 2003, 04:03

I don't know. Though Singapore is worried. Lee Kuan Yew once lamented, "How can we compete with a country that will have 10 times the production of Japan?"

Methinks he exaggerated just a bit.

Ecthy · June 22, 2003, 04:07

yeah, but if we agree that India has the advantage of halfway democracy and halfway open markets, and we can see that China is far ahead even through planned economy (which was just an argument for India's weakness, they used planned economy), I can only logically deduce that once China has open markets it will boom out the rest of Asia.

And I'm not certain if that would be a stabilising factor

Colon™ · June 22, 2003, 08:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
yeah, but if we agree that India has the advantage of halfway democracy and halfway open markets, and we can see that China is far ahead even through planned economy (which was just an argument for India's weakness, they used planned economy), I can only logically deduce that once China has open markets it will boom out the rest of Asia.

And I'm not certain if that would be a stabilising factor

I think you've been missing out on China's history since the death of Mao. They've abandoned old fashioned planned economics for quite a while already. (it's even in the article this thread is supposed to be about)

I bet it would be a stabilising factor. A lot of PRC's bluster towards Taiwan is intended to keep the military happy and to divert domestic discontent. (since there's plenty of discontent that doesn't have an outlet in representative polls)
I also think a democratic China wouldn't let North Korea off the hook that easily.

Remember we haven't had good experiences with economic succes-stories that retained an authoritharian regime. (Germany and Japan)

Colon™ · June 22, 2003, 08:19

Quote:

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Another factor in favor of the Chinese is that they seem to be very hard-working and enduring. As for the Indians, they don't seem to distinguish themselves in this respect from other nationalities.

Bullshit. I have a good friend in India who's working her butt off at an IT corp from dusk till dawn for 6 days a week. She's often still at the office when many people in Belgium have already finished their working day. (and there's a time difference of +5:30 hours) And she gets paid 250€ a month.

Indian workers are the best deal you can have. They work hard, they're well educated and they don't complain. If that country wouldn't have such a godawful infrastructure and administration it would be roaring to the #1 spot.

Dr Strangelove · June 22, 2003, 08:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

Ah, but they will be crushed as well.

Consider that Indian IT companies have compete worldwide, but Chinese ones don't, because there's a 1.2 billion persons market place for Chinese software. Japanese and Korean companies have similar but smaller advantages.

But India has a 1 billion person marketplace, so there's not much difference there. I still say that China's geographical advantage is it's relative close proximity to the more receptive markets of the Pacific Rim vs. India's proximity to Europe. Anyway, with regaads to software, doesn't India actually surpass China in software production? I think that neither China or India get top dollar for their software products.

Dr Strangelove · June 22, 2003, 08:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Ted Striker
Now that is some serious information Doc that I've never heard of before. Thanks for the history lesson.

I read about this movement in "The India Times", India's largest newspaper, a couple of years ago. A major portion of the edition was devoted to Bose, including a article discussing his association with Hitler's Germany and Hirohito's Japan, why this wasn't really such a bad thing after all and why it shouldn't be an impediment to naming him India's greatest national hero of the 20th century. There was even an article submitted by prime minister Vijaypur, which I find really interesting considering that a member of his party assasinated the Mahatma 55 years ago.

Ecthy · June 22, 2003, 08:44

Colon, if China becomes freer (and, let us assume, thus economically stronger), it will try to gain control all over Asia. Taiwan and North Korea will be annexed, all the rest of Asia vassalized. How does that sound? EU-esque?

Dr Strangelove · June 22, 2003, 08:50

Didn't the government of China recently announce that it was going to experiment with local free elections in some province?

Perhaps this was to take place in the region to be inudated by the Three Gorges Dam.

C0ckney · June 22, 2003, 08:54

wouldn't surprise me. although even if china did have some 'free' local elections, do you honestly think anyone hostile to the communist authorities would get in...

Colon™ · June 22, 2003, 09:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Colon, if China becomes freer (and, let us assume, thus economically stronger), it will try to gain control all over Asia. Taiwan and North Korea will be annexed, all the rest of Asia vassalized. How does that sound? EU-esque?

Lame troll.

Ecthy · June 22, 2003, 09:03

it's only a semi-troll. if you think India has the advantage of a freer system, why shouldn't China benefit from a freer system herself?

Sandman · June 22, 2003, 09:51

The reason China is ahead of India is actually down to the advances made in China before 1980 in education and healthcare. Despite the twin disasters of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution , the communists actually made large strides in improving education and life expectancy, which gave China a firm base on which to build a dynamic free-market economy. India, on the other hand, was and is behind China in both literacy and healthcare. India may churn out more students than anybody else, but female literacy is still just 37.7%, compared to China's 72.2%.

On the other hand, India has not had any large scale famines since independence, whilst China has had a gigantic man-made one, which is at least one thing India can hold it's head high about.

DinoDoc · June 22, 2003, 11:05

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Colon, if China becomes freer (and, let us assume, thus economically stronger), it will try to gain control all over Asia. Taiwan and North Korea will be annexed, all the rest of Asia vassalized. How does that sound? EU-esque?

More like a Greater East Asia Co prosperity sphere.

DanS · June 22, 2003, 12:48

Indian workers are the best deal you can have. They work hard, they're well educated and they don't complain. If that country wouldn't have such a godawful infrastructure and administration it would be roaring to the #1 spot.

I don't doubt this. And the infrastructure and administration are improving, albeit slowly.

Odin · June 22, 2003, 14:48

Indians have to get the caste system out of thier culture and improve thier infrastructure, if they do that they will start to become an economic superpower.

Urban Ranger · June 23, 2003, 00:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
But India has a 1 billion person marketplace, so there's not much difference there.

I am not sure how big the market is for Hindu software though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Anyway, with regaads to software, doesn't India actually surpass China in software production? I think that neither China or India get top dollar for their software products.

Software production is hard to quantify. How do you count it? Number of programs sold? Revenue $$$? Lines of code? It's not clear.

I agree, neither China nor India get top dollar for programs. IIRC, neither Ireland nor Israel do, either.

Ben Kenobi · June 23, 2003, 01:01

Quote:

Did you know that upon Independence India was tops in Asia (minus Japan) in just about every field. Per capita income, miles of roads & rails, lowest illiteracy, highest exports, and so on and so forth.

I guess it does help being a former British colony.

Mr. President · June 23, 2003, 01:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

I am not sure how big the market is for Hindu software though.

India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh? Singapore has Hindi speakers but it's not an official language.

DanS · June 23, 2003, 01:12

The point is that what India loses by lack of a captive audience, it gains in spades by having ready access to a wider and much more affluent audience.

Lord Merciless · June 23, 2003, 01:16

What India needs is a cultural revolution.

Urban Ranger · June 23, 2003, 01:37

Quote:

Originally posted by DanS
The point is that what India loses by lack of a captive audience, it gains in spades by having ready access to a wider and much more affluent audience.

The counterpoint is, the East Asian countries win by having both a captive market and ready access to the global one.

mindseye · June 23, 2003, 01:58

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like i said you might be a few pennies better off in china but the price you pay is terms of freedom and basic human rights is far higher.

Don't be too sure of that until you know something about life in China.

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Where India overcomes these obstacles, and has a clear competitive advantage—as in software and other information-technology services—it can be a huge success.

Ah, but they will be crushed as well

The Chinese are at a big disadvantage in some types of software authoring (and other creative endeavors) in that imagination is not a strong suit of their national mindset.

Quote:

Didn't the government of China recently announce that it was going to experiment with local free elections in some province?

Latest developments in this thread.

Quote:

wouldn't surprise me. although even if china did have some 'free' local elections, do you honestly think anyone hostile to the communist authorities would get in...

China already does have free elections at the lowest village level (has had 'em for some years now), and yes, some non-Party members actually beat the Party candidates and are elected! The latest reforms concern mayors and provincial governors. Non-Party members who become elected, however, often face significant hurdles from the (Party-controlled) political heirarchy above them which can greatly limit their effectiveness.

Step by step.