How long did it take you to really understand Civ2?

[rwprice]

How long did you play Civ2 until you really "got it"? What I mean is, did you immediately grasp the goal and point of the game, or did it take you a while to really understand? I don't mean fully understanding all the intricacies of gameplay, but rather the "big picture". I'm still fairly new to these types of games, and really new to Civ2, but sometimes it feels like I'm just pointlessly moving units around on the screen. Figuring out the main purpose isn't always clear, and I'm wondering if anyone else has felt this way. I'm going to keep plugging away, but I'm interested in knowing how most of you learned the game and became proficient at it.

[Chris 62]

I first played civ-1, so I had a good idea of what was going on. But after all this time, there are things I learn both the fine people here and the game itself that make it seem as if I don't know the game at all. Also, it is like a new game at each difficulty level. Don't get overwhelmed. Even if you don't beat the game the first time out, you can learn plenty just by playing, and you will soon be winning all the time, but still loving it, because it is always different.

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All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.

[Dis]

I still don't understand it

to answer your question better, I'd say either the first or second time I played it.

I never played civ1, but have watched others play civ1 and colonization. And I played 7 cities of gold, so the concept was familiar to me.
[This message has been edited by Dissident (edited March 28, 2001).]

[Smash]

The pieces began to come together when I found Apolyton and started playing OCC and Multiplayer.Both had steep learning curves.

OCC because of Paul and the other players involved in the early Fortnights.Before I could win but only one way and not every time.

Multiplayer because of some hard lessons and some really good allies that played mentor for me.Learn fast or perish

The quality,experience and knowledge level of Apolyton on-topic posters is/was the biggest single factor though.By far

Its an on-going thing.

[Scouse Gits]

I'm still learning ...

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Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Chris1111]

I'd say after the first few times playing it. I quickly learned that expansion and science were verrry important .

*looks fondly back on the days of "losing" at warlord level when the game was fresh and new*



[This message has been edited by Chris1111 (edited March 29, 2001).]

[johnmcd]

I remember trying to kill a buffalo with a warrior for about two hours on my first night and becoming highly frustrated with the whole experience. Later I built a Great Library in a city as I thought it would be pointless to build a normal one only to have to upgrade to a great one later. Once you get over that sort of hurdle its a fairly shallow learning curve that seems to carry on indefineatly, it is this endless learning curve, even after three years that keeps me at it. If anyone claims to know everything I'd be most surprised.

[rwprice]

Thanks for your replies. I go through this cycle each time I pick up a new game. The excitement of getting something new gives way to the challenge of figuring out the mechanics of gameplay. This usually involves reading the manual and/or going through the tutorials. After that, it's time to start one of my own. After a little while, though, I start to realize that now I'm going to have to really learn how things work and what all the little "secrets" are. That's where the work begins, and also where I often get discouraged. I'm going to persevere with Civ2, though, and try all kinds of different things until I have a good feel for the game.

Just in case anyone misunderstood...what I meant by "understand" is not the same as mastery. You can understand a game and what you're supposed to do without having mastered it yet. Mastery can take years, as some of you have said.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Not long at all, about 20 turns, and all the needed was some learning of the tile imrovements, interface, and goernments. But, I was previously skilled with smac and had read the civ2 manual well (my control freak habit, I never like to play a game as a complete amateur). Got up to within about 3-5 catagories of the top "magnificent" on my first game.

[George Garrett]

Hi rwprice...to better understand the game, I suggest that each time you start a new game, that you have a goal in mind...for example, in following the tutorial, say, after it leaves off, can you go on to make the U.S.A. mighty among nations? If you play the Rome scenario, can you re-create the
Empire, in all its glory over the opposition of the Greeks, Babylonions,
Mongols, Persians, and other formidable opponents? If the WW2 scenario, can you have the Allies win it by 1945? If you embark on conquering the world,
can you knock off 6 AI civs before 2020? Or land on Apolyton with your DIY
spacecraft before that date - or both? (as I have just done! ) There are also lots of interesting challenges throughout these forums, that, if taken up by you, could greatly assist your understanding of Civ -suggestions, anyone, that would help rwprice?...if you play Civ, you must have some interest in empire building - why not go to the map editor, create your dream country to your satisfaction, then stamp out 4 -20 clones of that country to see what various AI civs can make of terrain identical to your own, in competion with your own Civ driven by human intelligence?
I believe that once you heve a goal in Civ, you will understand what the game's all about...even if it takes you a while to find a way to that goal, by trial and error. At the very least, I suggest you try one game at Deity
level...there. very quickly, you will understand that the aim of Civ, basically, is to survive, let alone, grow, flourish, prosper and conquer(which is what Civ means to me). Good luck!


[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited March 29, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by George Garrett (edited March 29, 2001).]

[Marquis de Sodaq]

The basics come fairly quickly, although I remember using the tech/improvement/unit poster for a long time. What's good about this game is that there are many various approaches that can all bring you success. Remember that if it begins to feel stale, it's your playing style, not the game! Check out these forums for countless ideas of what to try to accomplish...

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

[Smash]

quote: I remember trying to kill a buffalo with a warrior for about two hours on my first night and becoming highly frustrated with the whole experience.

Ever finish that Capitolization wonder?
How come I can't finish it with freights?
I thought it was finished in 10 turns?
wtf is going on here?Where is that dam manual?

[Dis]

buffalo with a warrior- I can't stip laughing at that

yeah a few concepts escaped me fore a few games. captialism being one of them. democracy took a little while to get the hang of.

[War4ever]

not really reading the manual (i am a guy!) my triremes kept sinking even though i knew they could. When one wouldn't i would send it off on crazy expeditions only to have it sink never realized there were odds to this sort of thing

the hut and special pattern had me roaming endlessly for many millenium ..... took forever to figure that one out.

being a warmonger... it took forever for me to realize that gifting techs to the ai or er uhm.... making peace is highly exceptable......

fortresses ... never realize their power until i came to Apolyton..... in fact Apolyton ruined the game for me...... i was able to beat deity after a month of coming here..... never looked back since....

MP is the real test..... its all about getting that terrain..... and then controlling its power

[Exile]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet; Civ2 has some startlingly fresh possibilities. Given the right scenario, the game can be more than or entirely different from, the typical conquer-or-be-conquered game. The Jules Verne scenario, included w/the MGE package is a completely different experience than the default game. In that scenario the player must approach the entire game with the idea of exploration, discovery, interaction w/"the natives," and a bit of ingenuity when it comes to "tech research." There are all kinds of surprises that playing the default game will simply not prepare you for. All is not what it seems.

And this is just one example. There are dozens of scenario-laden sites on the web, w/every period, fantasy, and extrapolation you could think of. And if you can think of a new one, the scenario creation tools in Civ2 will allow you to create it!

Salutations,
Exile

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

I cut my teeth on the Super Nintendo version of Civilization I. I also broke more than one cartridge when the game frustrated me — that got expensive, though, so I had to master the learning/frustration curve quicker.

Once I got a Macintosh, it was only natural to add Civilization II to the computer package once it came out for the Mac. I haven't looked back since and still enjoy playing Civ to this day.

ALL HAIL SID MEIEIR! (I hope I spelled his last name right .)

CYBERAmazon

[johnmcd]

quote: Originally posted by Disident on 03-29-2001 08:32 PMbuffalo with a warrior- I can't stip laughing at that

It's all very well for you to laugh but there was NOTHING in the manual about how to kill buffalo! I had to work it out through trial and error. In the end I realised that warriors weren't fast enough to catch buffalo and built horsemen to do the job, that sorted everything . Still won that game, my first, at prince, being playing emperor and diety ever since.


[This message has been edited by johnmcd (edited March 30, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

That one tickled me to. Lol.

Anyway, my 2 cents worth is that finishing a game or two is good. There are two ways to win and they are rather different. You can build a spaceship, launch it and wait for it to arrive at Alpha Centauri or you can conquer every other civ by taking all their cities.

The two approaches have in common the need to build an industrial base capable of churning out either enough military units to accomplish the conquest or enough spaceship parts to build the space craft. And there are inbuilt happiness constraints that must be faced in every game.

Military wins can come quite quickly and I suggest you try that first. Choose a small map and a setting where civs which are destroyed don't restart. You will need to spend some time just getting cities down at first but at quite an early stage you might decide you can get half a dozen or more decent offensive units into the field and you then move on your nearest A1 opponent. the bigger picture resolves itself into balancing off the resources you are applying to keep up in the tech race to the resources you can manage to devote to building enough military units and getting them to each successive front.

Don't try the silly real time combat approach of just building up and building up until you have a huge force which can smash down all opposition. The guys who developed civ were WAAAYYY too savvy to let that work.

DaveV or Smash or War4ever or one of our numerous other war mongers will say if I'm talking out of my arse but you may well find that you have to set yourself intermediate objectives. Say, build up enough to wipe out the Mongels (who are near neighbours) but then go back to a period of development so that you can re-establish a tech and military advantage against the A1 civs who have not had a war to contend with while you were slugging it out with opponent 1. When you judge the time is ripe you go for A1 civ number 2. And so on.

Alpha Centauri is different. There is no short cut. Whatever setting you play on you must have all the necessary tech before you can build your spaceship. While taking steps to get the tech (a matter primarily of arrows) you must also build up your industrial base so as to have enough shields and money.

The tech tree is complex. Warrior Code is an early tech which does nothing for you as regards getting nearer the tech needed to start building the space ship so maybe you ignore it. But the balancing factor here is that the A1 civs are not about to just leave you unmolested. So you can't ignore military matters entirely. The trick is to devote enough resources to defence while putting the bulk of your efforts into research and developing a good economy.

Once you've had a go concentrating firmly on military victory I suggest you have a go concentrating firmly on the space ship route. Choose a large map for that one.

Once you see how you achieved your overall objectives in a couple of games you will start to ask yourself what wrong turnings you took and to speculate about whether it would all have been quicker and easier, or more secure, if you had adopted a slightly different approach.

I actually don't advocate studying these boards to improve until you've played a dozen games or more. Many threads assume a HUGE amount of background grip on all sorts of aspects of the game; some are about grand overall strategies and some are about really tiny points.

So play first, post later.

But, such is the comradeship on offer here, that this is hard to do - and maybe truly duff advice if you want to have fun first and get better at Civ2 second.

And in that spirit, welcome rwprice, I say.

P.S. I bet MP is indeed the way to really learn quick. Must try it soon.

[Teeks]

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon on 03-30-2001 01:01 AM ALL HAIL SID MEIEIR! (I hope I spelled his last name right .) CYBERAmazon

I love the guy, but he owes me a life.



Anyway,Civ 2 was fairly easy to comprehend, since I had Civ 1 for many years before...Unfortunately, I have a hard time doing as well in Civ 2 as I do in SMAC. I've beaten Emperor a handful of times, but have never come close to beating Deity.



--Teeks



[This message has been edited by Teeks (edited March 30, 2001).]

[Ilkuul]

To begin with the ONLY way I could win the game was by world conquest (building virtually nothing but barracks in my cities, and stealing fundamentalism at the first opportunity!). This method of victory really used to bother me --especially when, after slashing my way to victory through a bloodbath of slaughtered enemies, I was told that I was "100% civilized"!!!!

However I've finally learned something of what East Street Trader was talking about so learnedly above -- i.e., balancing military and tech advance. It's taken me the better part of 6 years, tho'! The thing to come to terms with is that you can't win either by pure militarism, or by pure technology. (From time to time during my 'military years' I would try pursuing JUST tech in the pitiful hope that I might finally discover how to win peacefully...) But at last I've realised that whatever happens you're going to have to do some fighting; and whatever happens, you're going to have to do some research (if you want to win, that is).

It's probably still not ideal (and I'm sure many of the masters on these forums would be able to describe 'better' ways of winning), but the strategy I most often use now is to adopt a militaristic approach early on in the game (while not totally ignoring the peaceful technologies), defeating or severely weakening as many as possible of my most powerful opponents; and then in the end game with only a few weaker civs remaining, I'm free to really forge ahead with technology and can finally win by 'spacequest'. For me at least, this gives the best scores.

Oh, and I should probably add that I have managed to win at Deity using this strategy -- but usually only after 4 or 5 false starts (not cheating, just abandoning a game when I realised I was on a downward spiral...).


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Ilkuul

Every time you win, remember: "The first shall be last".
Every time you lose, remember: "The last shall be first".
[This message has been edited by Ilkuul (edited March 30, 2001).]

[Shaka Naldur]

it took more than a year to figure out what was production about,
hi, I was young and I just play it in chieftan level and conquering cities

I don´t trade yet and always that I try to reach Alpha Centauri I finish conquering the ai cities

right now i´m playing scenario that are way better

[Earwicker]

My first game was pretty random, following the advice of my advisors without having any idea what they meant. "He says build a library, good plan!" Didn't know what the percentages were for, didn't know what the shields signified. I didn't even know that the land could be improved until I landed by Kyoto and saw roads and irrigation. "What the heck is that?" asked my backwards idiots shortly before attacking. The fact that I won the game is a testament to how chieftain lets you survive despite bad habits. Moved right up to King and got my butt handed to me. So I picked up the book and within a few weeks found the forums and never looked back.

[Dis]

actually I need to revise my answer

it took me a while to figure out the relationship between trade, science, taxes, and luxeries, and gold. this seems simple now. When I first started playing I had a good idea how they worked (I knew more was better ). but did not know how to efficiently use them to achieve my objectives. Actually I'm still working on being more efficient with my trade arrows.

[Ecthy]

...looking forward to see Ming posting the story of his first CIV1 game here...

he played it on a mate's machine and was beaten up by some barbs even before researching the first tech... or something like that

[MBloomIII]

I remember when I guy at work handed me some disks and said. "Here, load this. It's a really cool game." This was, I think, 1993. Many, many, many hours later I realised I still had a job to do and a family at home. Civ I was simple. Build a couple of chariots and RULE THE WORLD! I don't think I ever built a caravan in Civ I. This explains why I would get my a$$ handed to me at the higher levels. Civ II came out and suddenly much thought was required. Trial and error led to mastery at King level but why the hell do my citizens revolt so much early on at emperor and deity. Screw it, I'm staying at king playing the Aztecs on a real world with 3 other civs. Isolationism at its best. Enter Apolyton. The world of Civ is now at my finger tips. OCC, ICS, MP. It all makes sense now. Trade is important!! I no longer feel guilty for devoting so many hours to this game. There are other nuts out there as well. As for learning, I still am. But Apolyton flattens the learning curve greatly.

[Deity Dude]

quote: Originally posted by johnmcd on 03-29-2001 08:57 AM I remember trying to kill a buffalo with a warrior for about two hours on my first night and becoming highly frustrated with the whole experience. Later I built a Great Library in a city as I thought it would be pointless to build a normal one only to have to upgrade to a great one later.

This could be its own thread titled "stupid stuff we did before we read the manual." Like you I tried to kill/capture specials. But my stupidest had to be continually building palaces and then wondering why they went away.

[Scouse Gits]

Deity Dude -- I am somewhat embrrassed to admit to doing the same thing (with palaces)

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Dis]

Ditto on the palaces. But after building one in my third city I finally looked it up in the manual . So at least I didn't fall for that one too much.

And courthouses never really understood them- same with police stations. Today I understand them but still never build them

[Sirotnikov]

Though I played civI before civII but it was only for a short time.
I couldn't understand that thing about capitalization either. I often left my cities unguarded (and sometime the rotten mongols captured my only and unguarded city. it was sad). Even then it took me time to understand what fortyfying is all about.

Another things I got after a long - too long time (I had no manual):

Wow! The city size is affected by the food box? Who would have though! I never had an idea...

It took me some time to understand the purpose of micromanagin the 21 squares box. I was playing civ2 a long time without it.

I often wanted to create cool specialists. However I did not know how. I went to the civilopedia and read that to do that you can do it easily by clicking. So I clicked on the 21 box. No use. I went to read about workers which said they could be easily converted to specialists. i went to read about specialsts. This again stated that creating specialists is very easy. AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!

It took me a long time to get that the heads on top of the 21 box are not just to represent city size and occupation but are also clickable!!

Only a week ago did I first met the black (really mad) population units. I always wondered what are they for. I thought maybe for a barbaric city, but then, how would I take a peek in a barbaric city? maybe in cheat mode? naaah..

Up until a short time ago I never put thought in special / hut patterns ...

[Chronus]

"I remember trying to kill a buffalo with a warrior for about two hours on my first night and becoming highly frustrated with the whole experience."

THIS is just TOO FUNNY!

I remember the first time my Foriegn Advisor had announced that a rival was undergoing a revolution. I had never switched governments before so I thought "WOOHOO! That's one more rival in a weakened state!" Of course, a few turns later . . .