What makes the AI overthrow Fundy or Commy?

Boco · June 25, 2003, 22:53

Frequently in scenarios it is useful to get the AI to switch out of Fundamentalism or Communism into something other than Despotism.

I've seen it happen in plain vanilla games and suspect that trailing in the tech race (for Fundy), money woes (for Communism), or even randomness all play a role. Has anyone explored this? Are these suspicions on the right track? Are there key techs, particular gold ratios (AI:Human), or turns that serve as important triggers?

Six Thousand Year Old Man · June 25, 2003, 23:10

Good question.

I've noticed that in a lot of cases, cash seems to play a role - I think if an AI has lots of cash, they'll stay in Demo, particularly if I have lots of cash too. Maybe that's an anti bribe technique? I have definitely found that if I bribe a few AI cities, the AI in question will often switch to Demo and stay there.

Boco · June 25, 2003, 23:31

Did you notice whether the bribed city size has an effect? Does the city have to be kinda big, or will a few size 1 bribes trigger the revolt?

Ever notice a switch from Fundy or Commy to Demo triggered by bribing units? In scenarios, we occasionally disable city bribing.

Quote:

Good question.

Well it's got me stumped, but I figured a good SP player has a trick or two up his sleave to do this. Please don't tell me that real SP players win before the AI discovers anything beyond Monarchy. I couldn't live with the humiliation.

Scouse Gits · June 26, 2003, 04:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
Ever notice a switch from Fundy or Commy to Demo triggered by bribing units?

No. Possibly because there are few occasions when this is necessary. Why bribe a unit when a city may only cost a little more?

AI government choices are erratic. I've seen a change from Republic back to Despotism

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SG(2)

War4ever · June 26, 2003, 15:13

yes i could never understand why the ais switch govt so often...seems like the military ones choose fundy and the civilized ones go demo.....

i am sure bribing a few ai cities is cause for the revolt...i would do it if someone started bribing me

though i doubt they were clever enough to hardwire that into the game.

if you bribe virtually the whole empire in one turn or the turn the empire revolts you will save cash and it will be cheaper....

this of course requires precise timing ....and after some wine/beers/hippie lettuce.....i doubt many of us are able to pull it off consistently

Boco · June 26, 2003, 21:42

Anybody notice a militaristic AI change away from Fundy when the human discovered a key tech, say Csc?

Elephant · June 27, 2003, 12:28

I suspect disorder and support issues may be the reasons for some of the AI government changes as well. I have noticed the AI changing to Rep after gifting, then changing back to Despo for a short while, then going back. In my current game I gave everyone Rep, but one civ (Celts) are going back and forth and two others are researching Monarchy. I have seen a few Celt citys slip into disorder while they are in Rep, then they switch out. They may be struggling to build Temples & Colosseums in Rep, switching to Desp to finish them, then switching back.

Might be fun to run a few test games just looking at what the AI is building to deal with Rep/Dem governments...

War4ever · June 27, 2003, 13:10

i find the ai doesnt' control disorder very well.... another one of its flaws...

rah · June 27, 2003, 13:59

I know of three (not all of course) factors
Governments that they've researched.
Their civ characteristics
Their current state of war/peace

Boco · June 27, 2003, 17:24

So if a civilized perfectionist civ with a Fundy govt (and SoL), suddenly finds peace and discovers Democracy in the same turn, the odds are high that it will change to Democracy in the next turn?

rah · June 27, 2003, 17:34

Yep. The turn they discover a government tech, usually triggers a decision tree.

Elephant · June 27, 2003, 21:33

They seem to know that Rep & Dem are the strongest economically (which feeds taxes, lux and research), but weakest militarily. If not threatened they will switch to Rep/Dem when some list of basic improvements are in place, but if a few cities fall into disorder they will switch back out. Dem is a fragile solution to bribing problems.

Scouse Gits · June 27, 2003, 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Boco
So if a civilized perfectionist civ with a Fundy govt (and SoL), suddenly finds peace and discovers Democracy in the same turn, the odds are high that it will change to Democracy in the next turn?

No this can't happen. If they have SoL they already have Democracy

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SG(2)

Boco · June 27, 2003, 23:53

And you caught that goof late into a FNSSGS (one of those S's is for Scouse)?

Henrik · June 28, 2003, 16:18

AIs sometimes switch govts during negotiations...

I've only seen that in a scenario though (and the AI did it every time you negotiated with it in that scenario, without any anarchy involved).
As I recall it was for one of the playtest versions of exile's Age of War. The AI was extremely millitaristic (Germany) and kept switching back and forth betwen Republic and Monarchy. It'd switch every time it initiated negotiations (sometimes more than once in one turn).

Six Thousand Year Old Man · June 28, 2003, 16:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Henrik
AIs sometimes switch govts during negotiations...

I've only seen that in a scenario though

that's one of the most annoying AI tricks IMO.

You come into contact with an AI unit and the message "The XXX government has been overthrown" appears. Then, suddenly, the AI seems to get the benefit of any government choice it wants. Technically, they should be in anarchy, but they're not, because if they choose Demo after the revolt, their cities are unbribeable. And of course, by revolting, they can refuse peace offers.

rah · June 28, 2003, 19:38

Another reason to play MP

rjmatsleepers · June 29, 2003, 02:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

that's one of the most annoying AI tricks IMO.

You come into contact with an AI unit and the message "The XXX government has been overthrown" appears. Then, suddenly, the AI seems to get the benefit of any government choice it wants. Technically, they should be in anarchy, but they're not, because if they choose Demo after the revolt, their cities are unbribeable. And of course, by revolting, they can refuse peace offers.

My impression is that you only get to see the "xxx government has been overthrown" because of the contact. The actual revolution may have been earlier. But it may just be an AI cheat

RJM at Sleepers

Straybow · June 30, 2003, 03:05

No, I agree. You only see the overthrown messages on the turn after they've already switched. It does seem the AI is not hampered by oedo anarchy because their revolts take one turn only.

rah · July 1, 2003, 10:01

Or maybe the AI only revolts during odeo years.

:) Smiley · August 5, 2003, 17:20

Yeah, I once encountered an AI who operated as a democracy but became a monarchy every turn I negotiated with it so it would be able to continue a war.

DrSpike · August 6, 2003, 06:51

Hehe, the AI needs some 'concessions'.

Elephant · August 13, 2003, 15:32

Quote:

Originally posted by rah
Or maybe the AI only revolts during odeo years.

No, I looked into that a while back - they ignore Oedo, and they are immediately in the govmt they revolt to, even before the "Romans have switched to Republic" message pops up a turn later.

Old n Slow · August 14, 2003, 11:35

Although I often see some ai cities in an uproar, are they actually ever in anarchy?

Henrik · August 14, 2003, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers
My impression is that you only get to see the "xxx government has been overthrown" because of the contact. The actual revolution may have been earlier. But it may just be an AI cheat

This was what I thought as well, but they DO change govts during negotiations, I was investigating this for a scenario a while back.
Different settups seems to favour this differently though. The most extreme case was when I had an AI change govt twice during it's own move (after taking another AI city, and then again when it contacted me). Then during my own turn when I moved a unit near the AI's newly taken city it's government fell again, then after I'd taken the city from the civ they changed back to democracy, contacted me and declared that they wanted to wipe me off the face of the earth...

rah · August 15, 2003, 08:27

It's always amusing to see a handful of AI cities in revolt for a half dozen turns, and you know it's not causing them any difficulties in terms of Governments.