PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Corellion]

I take it that means there are interesting conversations going on on the Pirates side?

It would be interesting to see what each side has been thinking throughout our entire relationship.

[Phenix]

Yes indeed,

I wonder if there were Pirates who actually ment the best for our faction, for our pact to last the entire game... we'll never know now war is uphand

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Corellion
I take it that means there are interesting conversations going on on the Pirates side?

Verrry interesting .......

btw, Cap'n Hobbes has been sighted at the helm of a PEACE vessel. Some of you may know him from other PBEMs. He's another seasoned vet that will add wise counsel to their deliberations

G.

[Drogue]

Yes, I've played against Hobbes. A worthy opponent, although a very righteous one. He doesn't like being played, even if he has no choice. DilithiumDad once asked for a payment he found most unfair, not adding up the fact that non-payment meant certain destruction. Illogical, but a good player non-the-less.

[Drogue]

Has anyone had a PM or email back from Flubber or Herc? I have emailed Herc and Flubber with this:

Dear Captain and Ambassador,

Did you received my last communique, sent by e-mail to Hercules and by PM to Flubber? I do not wish to pressure you, but we have not received a reply stating if you wish us to research Nonlinear Mathematics and gift it to you, to close the previous deal, as you stated you ideally wanted first. We are prepared to gift it, though we weren't before, due to our mistake that has inconvenienced you.

I have pre-accepted a 10ec gift in the diplomacy box. Please accept it with our apologies for the mix-up.

Yours,
Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

[Drogue]

Have received a PM back from Flubber:

I think we wish most of all to acquire HEC now . . . there are other sources of nonlinear maths available to us. As for the 10 ec I appreciate the gesture but it is small comfort for the fact that you folks will take another dozen years or so to repay an old tech debt

I guess we have to go for HEC first then in order to make a semblance of keeping to the deal, since we will not be ready for war in 2 turns. Unless we can rush a laser cruiser or two? IMHO the best option is now to research HEC, but don't trade, so we have some defense and PEACE doesn't, all the wqhile building laser cruisers. Then attack PEACE while researching Non Math.

What do others thinks?

[Maniac]

I would still go for NonlMath.

[Phenix]

I think Drogue's plan is the best we've got if Peace insists on HEC instead of NonMath...

because war be on us in no-time if we yet again we defy the Pirates ( ).

[Drogue]

Maniac: If we go for Non Math, then we will get war with about 10 turns left before we get Non-Math, with only 2 turns to make cruisers, and withour plasma armour.

If we go HEC first, we have about 14 turns of having cruisers, we have plasma armour and we have 10 turns to get Non Math (presuming that research remains every 12 turns, and it will take PEACE 2 turns to war from when they know the deal won't be fulfilled).

IMHO the second is far preferable.

[Maniac]

If we go for HEC, I would vote we forget about going to war all together.

Edit: Oh yeah, I think it's bullshit PEACE can get NonlMath elsewhere. Last time I checked we were the only human faction with ApplPhys, a prerequisite. So if you really want to go to war, you have to exploit the benefit of having a superior weapon (4) against PEACE's guns (1) as much and as soon as possible. In 24 years they will already have built up their defences.

[DeathByTheSword]

hmz....maniac are you sure about HEC?....if so i agree on start on nonlmath and working on our military

[Drogue]

I propose going to war in 16 years, not 24 and they won't have built up their defenses, since they will be expecting HEC from us. If we go to war in 4 years, we will have no time to build any ships, and will still only have laser weapons with 10 years to impact. If we go to war in 16 years, we will have plasma armour, 16 years to build up ships, and 10 years to impact.

I'm betting that us, knowing we are about to go to war, will be able to build up our military more in 16 years than PEACE, who think we are still friends, and will remain our friends until they expect us to transmit HEC. I don't think they will build many defenders, if any, until the get HEC, since they expect to be getting it in 14 years. Why build anything worse when they expect to have (3) armour in 14 years?

I think if we go for Non Math we will have a war with our (2) against their (1), without any defenses ourselves and with at most 1 ship to attack with.

If we go for HEC we will have war with our (2) against their (1), with the ability to make (3) armour and with ~3 ships to attack with. A much better position IMHO.

[Phenix]

See, Drogue's proposal is a much better option than going for NonMath asap...

It's unfortunate that they ask for HEC, but now we have to make the best out of it

[Maniac]

Hmm, ok then.

Oh yeah, I was mistaken in my previous post. This year PEACE has obtained both ApplPhys and IndBase.

[Phenix]

But because Peace is our perfect pact partner ,
they wouldn't ever trade with another faction, would they??

cough:sarcasm:cough

[Maniac]

Hmm, it does put another light on their claim that they are not interested in those techs, and that therefore those two techs weren't sufficient repayment for the tech we owe them.

Perhaps DBTS and Drogue should ask them where they got those techs, and why they didn't trade them with us since they claim they want to be paid right away and they claim they are so perfect pact partners...

[Corellion]

Don't worry... we'll get our revenge soon enough.

BTW, are we going to want total war, or controlled war. i.e. are we going to want to wipe PEACE off the face of the map, or just beat them into submission.

And we're going to have to rethink our plans if they have both AppPhys and IndBase. Their 1-1-6 navy just became 2-2-6, on par with us.

[Maniac]

Perhaps we could use the fact that they bought IndBase and ApplPhys from someone else as excuse for not giving them the tech they want: HEC?

[Drogue]

Well... we can use that excuse later. I would be against asking them to forcefully where they got them, since we want to remain friendly for another 14 years. However we can use that, as you say, as a reason for breaking Pact. Remember we did buy from others too, although we believed they wouldn't trade, they may not believe that.

I think we want a controlled war. We want to wipe them to the stage they are no longer a credible threat, and until we have stolen all the techs they have that we don't (if any). We want a few sea bases too IMHO. I think see what they build. If they build some synth defenders, then get one 2-1-6 and one 2-3-6 (when we get HEC) for skirmishes, try taking out transports, CPs etc. then when we get Non Math, build two 4-3-6 ships and take bases. I think 2 ships is the minimum before we attack, and if they have synth defenders, we should have impact weapos before attacking.

Therefore, IMHO, we should build a 2-1-6 cruiser as well as the probe cruiser, before getting HEC. Then with HEC put Pi Square on building a 2-3-6 cruiser (will both prototype plasma and be resistant to their laser ships. We can leave it in their shipping lanes and no worry about it). Then as soon as we discover Non Math we build a 4-3-6 (or maybe a 4-2-6/4-1-6) cruiser, followed by another one. That gives us enough firepower to take out defenders, and a couple of ships for taking bases/garrison/skirmishes.

[Maniac]

Well... we can use that excuse later.

Ok. I was just thinking, if for some reason - eg PEACE building lots of offense-capable ships - a majority of cyborgs decides not to go to war, we could send a message to PEACE, saying something like:
"Hi Flubber,
Despite that you claimed you didn't need level 1 techs, and thus that we should repay you another higher level tech to complete the IndAut deal, we have noticed you have recently acquired AppPhys. We are very disappointed by this, especially since we offered that tech several times to you to settle our debts. By acquiring AppPhys you admit your previous argument for not accepting our level 1 techs was a lie.
For this reason we are no longer willing to give to you our next researched tech. Instead we give you the following choice:
a) Accept Biogen to finally finish the IndAut.
b) Do not accept Biogen. In that case we will still consider the IndAut closed, and will not repay you any other tech.
Friendly greetings,
Drogue/DBTS/Maniac/whoever"

[DeathByTheSword]

i got a not so friendly and kinda disturbing PM from flubber, proposing a doc: ini trade:

Diplomatic communicartion
Honored Deathbythesword


While we are plenty peeved by your actions in ONCE AGAIN researching a tech we have, with no consideration of repaying us a tech that has been owed to us for about 15 years, we are still trying to get benefits for us BOTH out of this alliance. In that spirit, we see the benefit of sending you Doc Ini so that you can obtain HEC for us on the research switch in payment of the old debt. The question becomes what you can provide us.

NOte that doc ini is preaccepted in our diplomacy box but should not be accepted by you until we reach a deal !!

I see several possibilities

1. a tech-- this would be our favored option if you could provide a good one in a timely fashion
2. energy credits, either lump sum or in installments
3. units
4. Other considerations, such as no trade clauses and an agreement not to build the MCC on your part.


I think option 1 can work but only if you can be certain of getting us a Level2 or above tech we do not have in a time to be specified. If a tech immediately or very soon is not possible, then we are left with the other 3 options.

Our faction wants the MCC and wants your assurance that you will not build it . . . That should be easy and costs you nothing. WE would also want your assurance that you would not trade on Doc INI for a number of years to be specified/negotiated ( to give us time to complete the MCC)

All the foregoing is just background stuff-- For the tech I believe we would want either unit(s) and/or energy. You folks were willing to pay 90 ec before for a tech obtainable elsewhere so I can only presume your offer would be higher for this tech.

I look forward to your response


Ambassador Flubber

[DeathByTheSword]

about what maniac wants to send...it think it is a bit to hostile...i like it....but to hostile...we arent ready for war...

[DeathByTheSword]

i like the paying partial money over time idea....we could go to war...and then the payment would stop....:Evilgrin:....but generally do we want this kind of deal?

EDIT: they want the MCC...this mean that we need to be ready for war the same turn we build the MCC...problem

[Googlie]

Roleplay - you are the logical faction

Logically, you should build the MCC because:

you already have an almost completed obsolete SP in the works (they can see that from their pact infiltration)

the free naval yard in every base is more valuable to you than to them, as they already have that as a faction bonus (when they discovered Doc: Ini)

They are not close to starting, let alone finishing the SP (youc an see that from your pact infiltration on them)

If they refuse, then logically the alternatives are:

you give up the quest for the MCC, conceding it to them

You take Doc: Init from them and build the MCC anyway, holding back on delivering HEC until they agree that your move was the most logical

you get Doc Init on your own in 2 turns, and that turncan complete the MCC

you can unilaterally give them Biogenetics for the owed tech, and tell them that you are now quits

Is war likely? You can see their military strengths as well, from your pactmate infiltration - you just don't know the location of their schooners (but remember, on breaking pact, all their units within your territorial boundaries are returned to their nearest base

(and war benefits you more than them - your faction bonus is "steal tech when conquering a base")

So what is logical?

G (on looking at the big picture)

[Maniac]

Great post Googlie. I just hope you aren't telling PEACE "Roleplay - you are a pirate faction, so you should attack CyCon".

Btw, PEACE says it gave Doc:Ini pre-accepted. Would it be cheating (and thus not allowed) or simply breaking their trust if we accepted Doc:Ini and then refused to give them anything in return?
Somewhere at the start of the game Flubber, FlameFlash or some other pirate said he considers it cheating when a faction B breaks a deal where faction A gives a tech to faction B which B already has, and where faction B all in one turn accepts the tech, choses another tech, researches that tech and should give it to faction A right away. I agree with them on that point. However personally I would disagree it is cheating (and simply breaking an agreement instead) if the leapfrog extents over more turns, or if a tech is offered pre-accepted by faction A while faction B had never agreed to anything yet (which is the situation here).

What is your opinion as CMN of this game on this matter?

***
To the Consciousness:

If it is allowed by Googlie to accept Doc:Ini without cheating, I would propose we just accept Doc:Ini right now, rush the MCC this turn and break all our deals with them. But Drogue's argument to research HEC before NonlMath -namely that PEACE will expect HEC from us, giving us more time to build up our military before they suspect something - is then no longer valid, so I would again want to recommend we research Nonlinear Mathematics before HEC. We will then have Impact Guns in only two years, which should be fast enough to build a few cheap 4-1-8(!) ships (perhaps we should even use crawlers to rush the prototypes to knock many years off production time) and catch them by surprise before they can build enough synthmetal defences.

[DeathByTheSword]

well as soon as we build the MCC we have a big dimplomatic fight on our hands...so what shall send as reply?

[Maniac]

DeathByTheSword

well as soon as we build the MCC we have a big dimplomatic fight on our hands...so what shall send as reply?

Do you mean a reply to Flubber's latest PM, or a reply for when we build the MCC?
If you mean the latter, it depends IMHO.

If in our turn we take Doc:Ini from PEACE without closing a deal, or if we promise not to build the MCC and then do it later anyway, I see only two options:
a) We ignore all their PMs.
b) We send a declaration of war.

If we research Doc:Ini ourselves, a possible response could be:
"The fact that we have currently have a pact does not mean you can dictate what secret projects we can build."

Drogue:

I think we want a controlled war. We want to wipe them to the stage they are no longer a credible threat, and until we have stolen all the techs they have that we don't (if any). We want a few sea bases too IMHO.

Is that realistic? IMHO once we declare war we will have trouble with PEACE for the rest of the game, even if we sign a truce later. We would have to keep a strong military force present at all times.

I think 2 ships is the minimum before we attack, and if they have synth defenders, we should have impact weapos before attacking.

I doubt two ships would be sufficient to start a credible attack. Do keep in mind that if they have synthmetal defenders, that the odds impact versus synthmetal become equal due to the free naval yards. This mean we will loose on average one ship per defender we have to take out. Especially for that reason I think we should opt for going to war and researching NonlMath right away, and not wait some twenty years before building some offense-capable ships. The longer we wait, the more synthmetal defenders they can build...

Then with HEC put Pi Square on building a 2-3-6 cruiser (will both prototype plasma and be resistant to their laser ships. We can leave it in their shipping lanes and no worry about it).

Do keep in mind that ships have two ways of attacking. IIRC:
a) direct attack: weapon against armour
b) long range artillery fire: weapon against weapon
If the PEACE captains of their 2-1/2-4s have any common sense, they will not attack 2-3-6s directly - with 40% chance of success - but will rather use long range artillery fire, with 50% chance of success.
This is another reason why armour is relatively useless for sea combat and that IMHO we should research NonlMath first.

[Googlie]

Originally posted by Maniac

Btw, PEACE says it gave Doc:Ini pre-accepted. Would it be cheating (and thus not allowed) or simply breaking their trust if we accepted Doc:Ini and then refused to give them anything in return?
Somewhere at the start of the game Flubber, FlameFlash or some other pirate said he considers it cheating when a faction B breaks a deal where faction A gives a tech to faction B which B already has, and where faction B all in one turn accepts the tech, choses another tech, researches that tech and should give it to faction A right away. I agree with them on that point. However personally I would disagree it is cheating (and simply breaking an agreement instead) if the leapfrog extents over more turns, or if a tech is offered pre-accepted by faction A while faction B had never agreed to anything yet (which is the situation here).

What is your opinion as CMN of this game on this matter?

***

I'd rule that accepting the tech, then reneging on any implied deal was a legitimate gameplay tactic.

The rules I believe we are following are the Forum wars set:

• Communications - none till contact, obtain commlink, or build EG (team mates can communicate from the beginning)
• Total freedom in Design Workshop (upgrades anytime, during turn or on-field)
• Retro-engineering - OK, except for using the probe rover chassis before discovering Doc. Mobility
• SE switches "quickies" forbidden - (obviously you can experiment to see what effect various SE choices have, but cannot change, play moves, then change back in the same turn)
• Council notification - immediate broadcast to all players (Post in the thread and e-mail to all immediately by player who has called elections, citing candidates and votes. After each player's turn, post in the thread the running totals)
• Stockpiling in Qs anytime - OK
• Crawlers Upgrade anytime - OK (see Design Workshop, earlier)
• Probe actions: Must choose vendetta option when probing other players, rebuke when probing pactmates (OK to probe teammate at any time)
• Demanding withdrawal through the menus rather than by negotiation is prohibited
• Bribing (or accepting bribes) for votes through the diplomatic channel box by clicking on the faction leader's picture is prohibited (must be conducted by diplo message or e-mail)
• Multiple drops - cannot use the right click mouse feature to extend range of drop units beyond the 8 tiles (pre Space Elevator)
• Base growth through Colony Pods - can be used to increase a base size up to the applicable pre-facility limit, but cannot be used to breach that limit without the facility being built.
• Psi units cannot be assigned multiple waypoint patrol routes (to avoid instant demon boil bug)
• Cannot accept pending treaties/pacts after declaring vendetta in the same turn
• Cannot change an infiltrated faction's workers to specialists, for example by using the F4 screen (or the bases icon of the F2 screen)

I don't believe any others were added (at least I can't find them by browsing)

G.

[Drogue]

Here are my opinions.

Maniac: It would be very evil of us, and would damage our relations with other factions, but I think it is not cheating since they pre-accepted it without any other conditions. They should have offered it but not pre-accepted if they didn't want it. We could even claim that we did not get the email

If we do get to choose another tech for 2 years time, then I agree let us go for Non Math. HEC meant we could extend our Pact, but with only 2 turns to research, that is not necessary. However rushing the first Impact Cruiser and the MCC would be essential. However I do see that as the best option IMHO.

Also, do not send that reply, it's way to hostile. We want to take them by surprise.

DBTS: If you reply, make sure you stress that the 'mix-up' was accidental and does not show a lack of consideration.

Personally, I DBTS should not reply, and we should accept Doc Ini, choosing Non Math afterwards. Then send them a message asking why they pre-accepted that, and thanks for the gift. If they ask, claim we never got the email/PM (unless it shows? ). Or we could just be evil and do it anyway. Either way, we are going to build the MCC, so we cannot agree to those terms in good conscience.

We have 3 options IMHO:[list=1][*]Accept and choose to research Non Math next, and break pact - WAR in 2. Either claim not to have received PM or just declare.[*]Do exactly as we were intending to do before. Say no to the deal, research HEC, don't giv it and then research Non Math. War in 16.[*]Accept and choose to research HEC next. Details given in paragraph below[/list=1]

As for the last option. If we accept the deal at face value, offering them another tech for it, and say we'll transmit HEC to them, then we can consider it not cheating whatever. Choose HEC next, and then in the next 2 turns, sour relations, and because of that, refuse to trade. That is not cheating, since the relations soured after we accepted the deal.

I favour the first option personally, although it is evil and could damage future relations. However I think we need war, and this gives us an opportunity to go to war already 2 techs up in diplomacy against PEACE. We have much to gain fromwar, possibly more than from any future diplomacy.

I'd say they have been so anti-pact with not giving us commlinks, with tryign to trade higher and higher prices, etc, that we should just call the bluff, build the MCC (we need it) and take to the seas with impact weapons. We get surprise and decent weapons

[Googlie]