PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Drogue]

I thought the last two were needed. We want to explain that we haven't broken the rules.

[DeathByTheSword]

put in the incompentent part about drogue and me...that will do wonders

[Maniac]

Alas, I just sent it, the Drogue version.

[Drogue]

That's fine. The fun version was a little far IMHO. Though would have been nice to see how he reacted to it!

[Corellion]

Indeed.

The reason I thought we should nix the last two sentences, is that we don't want them thinking we've gone through enough planning for this to know definitively whether or not we actually did cheat. We want to pretend we're asking Googlie if we cheated, so it seems more innocent for the rest of us.

[Drogue]

It's pretty quick to check, and it would explain not giving an answer while online for 3 hours - we were chatting to Googlie about the rules

[Maniac]

Flubber's PM I just received:

Your teams actions have crossed the line into what I call cheating. I believe none of what you just said.

You thought we GIFTED you doc ini ?? LOL


Good day

Though PEACE is among the worst pact mates imaginable, I do think we may have taken things a little too far... Chaunk just told me he's leaving the Consciousness because of our recent dealings with PEACE...

[Corellion]

!? He should have voiced his opinion... I thought we were all in agreement.

I at least think we're roleplaying properly. Googlie has ruled it within limits... and we don't care about petty emotional foibles. If I or anybody else are bringing anybody to an ethical dilemma, feel free to bring it up. We can't evaluate our actions if those who don't agree keep silent.

[Drogue]

I thought we were all in agreement too. It is a pity about Chaunk, but Corellion is correct. What we did was in character and in the rules. And yes, if anyone has any problem, please bring it up.

Maniac: I suggest PMing him back saying:

What you believe is your business. However Googlie has told us that what we did was not cheating, and we stick by his decision. You offered it pre-accepted, without any agreement on ourside. That was your decision. Our factional ethos is supposed to be not caring about petty emotional foibles. If offered a tech, we accept it. Even counting this, and the fact that what we did did not break any rule, agreement, nor was against any unwritten rules we were aware of, we were going to wait for your reply as to why you had offered that. However Drogue did not. We are sorry about that, it was a mistake. Believe what you will, but we did not cheat.

I don't think we crossed the line at all. After them being that nasty to us, from accusing us of malicious intent in real-life, to insulting us directly, all of which are far more serious than an in game incident, I feel no remorse at all for what we did. We had not even thought of it before they decided to offer it pre-accepted. They should not do that unless they trusted us. And if they did, then sorry, they trusted the wrong faction. By doing that, they put the ball in our court, to act as we feel. Admittedly maybe we shouldn't have lied to them, but stealing the tech was an in game incident that broke no rule. I don't see that as anything wrong at all. And they have lied right the way through this game, so I don't feel bad for lying to get what we wanted too. We're the ones without the emotional foibles, yet they have done things worse, IMHO. I do not feel at all bad about what we did.

[Corellion]

I agree, but still, Chaunk at least felt it crossed the line.

[Corellion]

I'd normally suggest toning down the PM to be more diplomatic, but at this point I guess there really isn't much point. Besides, we are personally offended here too... if it comes up as a point of contention, we can say that we were angry at the direct insult (which we, or at least I, are). So, I guess you can send it off as-is.

Actually, we may even want to keep it as undiplomatic as possible... it will give us some justification for witholding HEC when we get it.

[Drogue]

Actually. I would add a little on the end, saying:

Indeed, we did ask what you would like in place, to make up for the fact, and do a trade with Doc Ini. However you ignored that and decided to direct your anger at us because we did something you found morally questionable. As you now obviously wish to end diplomactic relations, there is now no reason for us to honour this. I believe it's called shooting yourself in the foot.

Maybe 2 sentances are going too far? It is true though, we did offer to repay them, and they ignored it.

[Corellion]

That sounds good... and will certainly not put us in any better standing with them.

[Drogue]

Since Maniac and DBTS are offline, either I have to word it so that I can still be the rebel and send it myself, or Corellion has to send it. Or we wait until tomorrow. Which is best?

[Drogue]

Ok here is the PM I intend to send, while remaining the rebel:

Flubber,

Maniac has posted a copy of your latest PM on our forum.

Quote:

Your teams actions have crossed the line into what I call cheating. I believe none of what you just said.

What you believe is your business. However Googlie has told us that what we did was not cheating, and we stick by his decision. You offered it pre-accepted, without any agreement on our side. That was your decision. Our factional ethos is not caring about petty emotional foibles. If offered a tech, we accept it. Even counting this, and the fact that what we did not break any rule, agreement, nor was against any unwritten rules we were aware of, the faction was going to wait for your reply as to why you had offered that. I did not, because I do not see why because you decide to pre-accept a tech to us that we should delay our turn, and I had to go out for the rest of the day, and so it may well have gone over our 48 hours if I had not played. Believe what you will, but we did not cheat. There was no rule against this decided at the start, nor did we know of any ‘unwritten rule’ against it, being that we are all DG players, and have played very few PBEMs. Pre-accepting a tech is accepting to the deal that is on the table. If you did not accept it as is, then you should not have accepted it IMHO.

Quote:

You thought we GIFTED you doc ini ?? LOL

We did not know. It was certainly a possibility, one pactmate gifting a tech to another just before they complete it, so we could give you HEC at a much sooner date. However we did not know, and when we do not know, we go with our factional ethos and choose what we think is in the best interest of our faction, while staying within the rules.

Furthermore, we did ask what you would like in place, to make up for the fact that we had taken Doc Ini, and do a trade. However you ignored that and decided to direct your anger at us because we did something you found morally questionable. As you now obviously wish to end diplomatic relations, there is now no reason for us to honour this. I believe it's called shooting yourself in the foot.

Suspended Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

Is the last part, about shooting yourself in the foot, too harsh? Also, does the sentance before about not honouring it tell them too much?

[Corellion]

Leave shooting yourself in the foot, cut out not honouring it.

...found morally questionable. And you now obviously wish to end diplomatic relations; I believe that's called shooting yourself in the foot.

But put it in your own words.

[Drogue]

I think the "And you now obviously wish to end diplomatic relations" is a little redundant there. How about:

However you ignored that and decided to direct your anger at us because we did something you found morally questionable. I believe it's called shooting yourself in the foot.

Edit: since you already agreed, this will be sent as the ending.

Thank you for your help

[Drogue]

The Final PM that was sent to Flubber was:

Flubber,

Maniac has posted a copy of your latest PM on our forum.

Quote:

Your teams actions have crossed the line into what I call cheating. I believe none of what you just said.

What you believe is your business. However Googlie has told us that what we did was not cheating, and we stick by his decision. You offered it pre-accepted, without any agreement on our side. That was your decision. Our factional ethos is not caring about petty emotional foibles. If offered a tech, we accept it. Even counting this, and the fact that what we did not break any rule, agreement, nor was against any unwritten rules we were aware of, the faction was going to wait for your reply as to why you had offered that. I did not, because I do not see why because you decide to pre-accept a tech to us that we should delay our turn, and I had to go out for the rest of the day, and so it may well have gone over our 48 hours if I had not played. Believe what you will, but we did not cheat. There was no rule against this decided at the start, nor did we know of any ‘unwritten rule’ against it, being that we are all DG players, and have played very few PBEMs. Pre-accepting a tech is accepting to the deal that is on the table. If you did not accept it as is, then you should not have accepted it IMHO.

Quote:

You thought we GIFTED you doc ini ?? LOL

We did not know. It was certainly a possibility, one pactmate gifting a tech to another just before they complete it, so we could give you HEC at a much sooner date. However we did not know, and when we do not know, we go with our factional ethos and choose what we think is in the best interest of our faction, while staying within the rules.

Furthermore, we did ask what you would like in place, to make up for the fact that we had taken Doc Ini, and do a trade. However you ignored that and decided to direct your anger at us because we did something you found morally questionable. It seems we have a different set of morals.

Suspended Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

Let's see what happens. Remember, I am the rebel, so if things need softening later, then you can claim im still the rebel. However I doubt it will matter.

Next stop, WAR

Corellion: Please pick up all impact rifles, plasma steel vests, and cruisers at the nearest baggage terminal.

[DeathByTheSword]

i got this from flubber so officially i am active again!

welcome back

[Drogue]

Here's the PM conversation. I'm sorry if I've gone too far/given to much info, but I think we needed this.

Flubber to me:

Googlie has ruled and as much as I disagree with him to the depths of my being, the ruling is what it is.

But cut the crap .. . this was planned and deliberate as was your "mistakes" of researching the wrong thing. Don't even pretend otherwise

I believe you will find that you will be penny wise and pound foolish in this action. The game is a long one and despite some tough negotiating, I really had hopes we might work ourselves into a stable long-term alliance. Only your choices to research doc flex and then doc ini changed all that. Even then we tried to work with you .. . to toss that away for a tech is shortsighted.

We are now treatymates . . . my only question is where you wish to go from here

My reply:

Quote:

But cut the crap .. . this was planned and deliberate as was your "mistakes" of researching the wrong thing. Don't even pretend otherwise.

We did not plan it. And our mistakes were mistakes. I'm sorry you feel otherwise.

Quote:

I believe you will find that you will be penny wise and pound foolish in this action. The game is a long one and despite some tough negotiating, I really had hopes we might work ourselves into a stable long-term alliance. Only your choices to research doc flex and then doc ini changed all that. Even then we tried to work with you .. . to toss that away for a tech is shortsighted.

When we signed the pact, I too felt that we could get a lasting friendship that would be beneficial to both of us. We tried to work with you two, but the emails received from JDM and Herc while you were away did enough damage that we felt we had to be firm. This is a game, and when we started to be accused of malicious intent in real life and insulted personally, it stopped being fun. We tried to work round that afterwards, but it became apparent recently that that had done too much damage to the way the CyCon perceived PEACE. I admit we haven't been model pactmates at all, and have given you ample reason to not trust us. Much of this was unintended, however, and because of the feeling that we were being played off against other factions, and the way Herc and JDM treated us, we felt that we both had enough grievances to make the Pact untenable.

Quote:

We are now treatymates . . . my only question is where you wish to go from here

To be honest, I have no idea. My personal opinion holds a lot less weight at the moment due to my suspension, however it seems likely that I will simply be given a formal warning, as we don't have anyone to take over my position in the longer term.

Yours,
Drogue Beta-8

From Flubber:

I am over being totally pissed off now-- I don't trust you folks but my desire is as it always was, to win this game. I still consider your actions a cheat and will clarify the point in all my future games but you did check with the CMN so its not your fault if you get a positive ruling.

Just don't try to tell me it was all a mistake . . . you put one over on us . .. . it was done well .. .

The question is do you complete old trades or was I completely fooled on that point as well ?? your last pm did mention recompense . . . was that just roleplaying or will you try to repair this relationship


There will be some retribution from this-- My intent is that everyone hears of your actions . . . This will make your diplomacy a little harder but that HAD to be your expected result.

As for johnd and herc, the reason I took over the diplomatic role is that they just aren't good at being well . . . diplomatic. They go over the top sometimes

My reply:

Quote:

Just don't try to tell me it was all a mistake . . . you put one over on us . .. . it was done well .. .

It depends what you consider a mistake. I have heard that in PBEMs before if one offers a pre-accepted tech by accident, and the other accepts, that is the deal, and it's put down to a mistake. We knew it could have been a mistake, a gift, or a trade, and so, since we had already decided to downgrade to treaty, I thought I would take advantage. We did not see it as cheating at all. It was a mistake in that we misunderstood your intentions, and did not know of the planned trade. I would expect any faction, when offered a tech for free without any other information, would accept it and ask questions later.

Quote:

The question is do you complete old trades or was I completely fooled on that point as well ?? your last pm did mention recompense . . . was that just roleplaying or will you try to repair this relationship.

We intend to repay the Ind Auto deal with HEC, which we are currently researching. We had agreed to give your a tech in recompense for Doc Ini, however if you were to release information about the CyCon, I am not sure if that will be held to. Seeing that it wasn't a gift, we did intend to repay it with another tech, although by all rules we know of a pre-accepted tech is one that has been accepted to give away, and we were unaware when we accepted it of anything else.

Quote:

There will be some retribution from this-- My intent is that everyone hears of your actions . . . This will make your diplomacy a little harder but that HAD to be your expected result.

Well, if you wish to, then that is your decision. We do not feel we did anything wrong, and so do not see retribution as necessary. Moreover, I'm, sure you are aware that we cannot reply to it. However if you do reslease that, we will release details, by PM to all factions we have encountered, of the insults, accusations and general nastyness that was employed by your side, as well as details of the trades that were made, and the playing off against other factions. This will only be released if you release as such on your part. That seems fair, as I believe everyone should head either nothing, or the full story. However being that you've met everyone, you get to use the forums, while we must PM to those we have met.

Quote:

As for johnd and herc, the reason I took over the diplomatic role is that they just aren't good at being well . . . diplomatic. They go over the top sometimes

That is true, however they did go to far IMHO. Accusing me of planting viruses on their computer? This is a game, and after that, my blood pressure rose enough to cause considerable stress, which is a large part of explaining why we broke the Pact. We didn't want another barrage of insults and accusations.

From Flubber:

I knew nothing of the virus incident-- wow thats strange !! I was visiting my parents with my young son at the time and literally did not turn on a computer for something like 20 days.

Just try to see it from my side here-- a tech is preaccepted with a note to see communication from me. Two to three DAYS before you get the turn, I send a PM to the person I was told was your ambassador.

Then I get told that your ambassador was generally inactive?? WE have pretty reliable intelligence that your mistakes were not mistakes at all but planned and deliberate. Haven't you even had a member of your faction resign over this ?? Bottom line is I will stop accusing you of planned and deliberately engineering all this but I will retain my belief.

In any event, water under the bridge except that we won't trust you the same . . if people keep getting more and more upset over past slights, then you get the mid east situation where every provocation is a reaction to a prior one and then things escalate until nobody wins.

Sending HEC would go a long long way to calming things down . . .


As for publicity, at the very least I am planning to make this public as a point for rules clarification. I have played a lot of PBEM and your action would be considered a cheat . Thats why I was so outraged at the beginning. Since you saw fit to get a prior ruling, my outrage at you ended and has been replaced by suprise at these rules.

Flub

My reply:

Quote:

I knew nothing of the virus incident-- wow thats strange !! I was visiting my parents with my young son at the time and literally did not turn on a computer for something like 20 days.

I know. I am aware it was just JDM in the heat of the moment. And much as I tried to convince myself of that, it still affected how I saw PEACE.

Quote:

Just try to see it from my side here-- a tech is preaccepted with a note to see communication from me. Two to three DAYS before you get the turn, I send a PM to the person I was told was your ambassador.

I completely agree. I understand why your upset. I presumed that offering a tech was offering a tech, and so I accepted it. Quite simply, having a faction with 'no emotional foibles', and no moral structure as such, that communicates telepathically, so would be annoyed at others lack of that ability, meant that for me to roleplay, I should accept. I did not see it as cheating at all, although I did see it as somewhat unfriendly behavior. If I had thought it was cheating, or if Googlie had said so, then I would not have done it.

Quote:

Then I get told that your ambassador was generally inactive?? WE have pretty reliable intelligence that your mistakes were not mistakes at all but planned and deliberate. Haven't you even had a member of your faction resign over this ?? Bottom line is I will stop accusing you of planned and deliberately engineering all this but I will retain my belief.

That is ok. Reliable intelligence? May I ask from whom? Yes, Chaunk has resigned. He did not like that I did not wait for your reply about accepting Doc Ini. DBTSs activity fluctuates. He is not as active as Maniac, Corellion and myself, who are the main 3 in the CyCon, which is why he has the least active job.

Quote:

In any event, water under the bridge except that we won't trust you the same . . if people keep getting more and more upset over past slights, then you get the mid east situation where every provocation is a reaction to a prior one and then things escalate until nobody wins.

That is true. I expected that you would not trust us much after this, but then I do not think there was muct trust for quite some time. As you say, you, as we, are out to win the game. That was evident during all our negotiations. It would seem to fit in with both of our factions roleplay too, IMHO, that of Pirates and that of Cyborgs.

Quote:

Sending HEC would go a long long way to calming things down . . .

I intend to when we get it. I believe that is the turn after next, since we were in dire need of ec, our research has been slowed down, to maximise ec. It should be transmitted in 2143, as soon as we get it.

Quote:

As for publicity, at the very least I am planning to make this public as a point for rules clarification. I have played a lot of PBEM and your action would be considered a cheat. Thats why I was so outraged at the beginning. Since you saw fit to get a prior ruling, my outrage at you ended and has been replaced by suprise at these rules.

We do have different rules for this DG than for a normal PBEM, partly because of the nature of a DG. In a normal PBEM, all diplo would be done by one person. When we saw the Diplo box, we believed it was inside the rules to accept, but wanted to check that Googlie interpreted them as that too.

It is very interesting which factions have different specialties. Some factions seem to be very good at watching the power graph/other intelligence and interpreting it. While some, like ours, seem to be more like lawyers and know the rules well. I just find it fascinating the things people know and the ways they do it.

Drogue

What now? I think i got us an extra turn to war, which will now be set for 2143, unless we trade HEC. I'm still presuming we won't? However when we build the MCC they won't like that. I say MCC ASAP, and do the war plan we planned, with mostly probes an a laser ship. Get Non Math ASAP and then take them out.

Opinions?

[Phenix]

In any case we're not giving away HEC

IMHO you should offer them BioGen (maybe even pre-accepted this turn). I don't think this lvl1 tech will do them much good (hell, they can't even use rec tanks) and maybe it will postpone war for another turn or two...

We should try to get NonLMath from Myriam asap. Those impact weapons are critical for our assault. (see other tread- i'm in favor of buying from the Believers in 3 turns).

[DeathByTheSword]

well when we go to war. please send a official notifcation about it to them ( a declaration of war) roleplaying and one about that this war is just in-game our best solution...

[Phenix]

Yea our the declaration of war will be easy. Regarding our factional's ethos we can explain going to war just because it's most logical way to expand the CyCon's glory

[Drogue]

I will do. When we go to war. And yes, let's get Non Math ASAP.

[Corellion]

Alright. Sounds good.

Argh this whole thing turned out to be a mess... why'd one of them have to insult Googlie directly?

[DeathByTheSword]

pirates you know

[Impaler[WrG]]

I think when we make the War decloration we should include a number of "Demands" and Grivances (like the Googlie Insident). Baiscaly we should demand that they give us Tecnology and com-links (all the things we are going to try to get in the war). We will make it clear that if they give us this stuff the war will end (not that they will belive us or anything). If they realize quickly they are in no position to fight us then they might capitulate. If they dont then we will get what we wanted anyways when we roll through their bases.

[Phenix]

Yea, that's what the AI diplomacy does too. Usually, it states its demand (tech/EC's) and after refusal it declares war.

[DeathByTheSword]

yes i thought of that today to and i like the idea...give us your maps all commlinks and 2 bases of our chosing + 3 crawlers and a foil or something...not that we need the units we can or disband them onsite or bring them to us to use...

[Drogue]

I disagree. I think we should only ask for demands after taking their first base. We won't need commlinks either. I will ask the Hive for PUTs, and then we have everyones.