PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Corellion]

Drogue's proposal seems to be fine, however I am concerned that the Pirates will probably not accept it. Their strategy so far seems to be to act as Chiron's merchant fleet, gaining techs, EC, and whatnot by acting as a go-between for factions. They will therefore milk it for everything they've got... this advantage can't last for long. This means it is in their interests to keep commlinks from the other factions to themselves. I highly doubt we will get any commlinks from them without having to pay an extraordinary price.

Now, as for their proposed deal...
This was exactly what I was worrying about. They're expecting us to compensate them for everything they've had to do to get to the position they are in. I'm surprised they didn't ask us for money to pay off the loss of some gunship they lost in their exploration while trying to find the Angels, thus getting the trade set up. They are making it seem as though everything they are doing (especially in research) is for our sake, and that we should thus compensate them for it.

In further negotiations with them, (tactfully, of course) remind them of the fact that we are not responsible for actions taken by their (incompetent) probe foils, unless they're undertaking a mission we specifically request them to take. Our pact was founded on openness in tech trading, and they are now trying to back out of it. They've probably just forgotten, it's understandable, so continue to remind them of the text of our pact. Quote it to them if necessary, and send it to every member of PEACE.

Something tells me we're going to have to go through something like this with every proposed tech. I suggest that our best strategy to level the playing field is to get other factions' commlinks. We can't count on PEACE to give them to us, and it will probably be difficult getting Doc: Flex... they'll think of it as hostile. Our best strategy, therefore, is to get that Unity Chopper. Don't let PEACE know we have it, and let's go exploring.

[Drogue]

I agree completely with Corellion We want Doc Flex though. If they're going to milk us, let's get an impact foil and see how much we can milk them

[Googlie]

[Corellion]

True, but let's not hand the information to them on a platter. Let them figure out on their own.

[Maniac]

You're a brilliant External Affairs Function, Drogue.

I'm surprised they didn't ask us for money to pay off the loss of some gunship they lost in their exploration while trying to find the Angels

Btw, I agree that that Unity scout chopper could form a very valuable asset. The problem is I don't know in which base we could build a probe team to mind control it (thus suggestions are welcome!). All our bases have nutrient bonuses in their radius, meaning they'll riot right away if we build anything else than colony pods all the time. A real luxury problem...
If we would mind control the chopper, we need cash to do so. This is another reason why I am very reluctant to give more than 25-30 ec to the Pirates. IMHO exploration with that chopper could result in more advantages than having crawlers a few years earlier.

[Drogue]

I disagree with the exploration. It's important, but crawlers can make our energy/mins rise enough we can grow (with use of Psych) and we can produce much quicker. I'd like the chopper, but won't it disappear next turn? I'll have to have a look at the turn and see if I can think of anything.

And thanks for the compliment Haven't got a reply yet, even though JDM and Herc were online (or so I thought)

[Maniac]

I'd like the chopper, but won't it disappear next turn?

It's hanging there a few turns already, since MY 2123 IIRC. And there's nothing that shows it has any intention of leaving. Probably some AI glitch. :shrugs:

[Drogue]

Isn't it killing itself then? Like losing petrol after every turn?

[Maniac]

The AI cheats on that apparently. The choppers even repaired itself from 30% damage to 20% damage while it was hanging there. A similar thing is that the AI can keep needlejets indefinitely in air without crashing. Most of the time very annoying, but now we can profit from it.

[Drogue]

Received from Herc:

Hi Drogue ( External Affairs function) and Mani Alpha 3.(Prime function

( I have been trying to get on apolyton to see reaction of fellow
pirates to the Cycon revised proposal but tonight is particularly
slow). I presume the PMs part 1 and Part 2 were as in your email.

My initial reaction based on own internal discussions previous, is that
the deal is off.

I will be playing our 2127 turn to completition within the slight time
extension allowed. There are some issues within the pirates we have to
reach conclusions on such as, switching our own research to Ind Auto,
perhaps, though ethical calc has its attractions. The direction of our
probe units etc.

As a consequence of this failure to reach a deal we will not be
acquiring Ind Base from DJ (we don't need or want it) and we will not be
requiring Biogenetics from you.. So your HGP is safe.

I only hope your faction has somehow overlooked the fact that the Hive
and the Drones already have Ind Auto and that the failure to take the
opportunity to 'leap frog' to this tech by us, will set us both back
considerably.

Can I just say finally, we are not trying to exact any anything extra as
such;.we were trying to a fair deal and recognition of the efforts and
risks we are undertaking.

We were hoping to save both of us some considerable years research,
while the other factions edged ahead. But so be it.


yours
Cap'n Hercules

Have replied, to try and save the deal (we neeed Ind Auto ) and to try to convey our disapointment at their actions and diplomacy.

I am sorry if the deal is off. We were hoping to gain that advantage too.
We really want to make a deal. But to be asked that you wish an extra tech
and money, vastly more than we can afford, and skewing the deal, we have
little choice. We could possible offer an extra tech, or maybe a little
more money, as we wish to make this deal. You are pact brothers, going
against what was written when we signed the pact - a tech for a tech, that
was what Flubber insisted on your behalf. We are willing to go further and
offer sweeteners, and yet you still turn it down? We wish to make this
deal, and we wish for us both to gain, and we are trying to offer extra to
make sure this happens. I am sorry if this is not mutual.

- A rather discouraged Drogue

I think if it doesn't work, it will be war. LEt us get Doc Flex and Impact weapons, and launch 'Plan B' To be honest, with the Drones and Hive ahead of us on Tech, I don't see another other way to win this than taking our a faction and gaining bases. PEACE don't even have synthmetal

[Maniac]

Well personally I'm not willing to give an extra tech (giving Lasers to hostile Pirates?), so as far as I'm concerned the deal's off. As for Impact and Doc:Flex, perhaps we should still aim for IndAut first, and then go for those two techs. After all, a military apparatus works best with a good economy supporting it.

Anyway, I only hope they would be willing to trade IndEco for something, even if we won't trade for IndBase...

[DeathByTheSword]

...tactically this failed trade won`t do us much good. we will lose our only link to other faction`s and will upset a faction that control the seas (and that in a island map)...i dont say start begging. but i propose that the main defense councel change pirates-status from pact-brothers to possible-threat. i really dont trust them any more.

P.S. the only way to get this deal is to talk to flubber. as soon as possible maybe he can change pirates opion.

[Corellion]

The direction of our probe units

Is it just me, or does this sound like a threat to you guys too?

[Maniac]

Wow. I hadn't noticed that yet. Indeed. That doesn't sound good. But there's not much we can do about it. It would cost enormous amounts of minerals to probe defend all our sea bases. I doubt we can afford it in this stage of the game.

[Corellion]

No, but we can begin the process of fortifying all our bases. We've probably been too lax about that so far. At the very least, let's minimise the damage they can do.

[Corellion]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
the only way to get this deal is to talk to flubber. as soon as possible maybe he can change pirates opion.

I agree with this statement entirely. Though he definitely fights the Pirate's side, he is overall very fair, and holds great influence in these matters (as far as I've seen) with the other members. He is our best option for salvaging this.

Having said that, every tech trade we've done so far has always degenerated to a near-war point... even when we're pact siblings. This means popular PEACE opinion seems to be against us, and I doubt Flubber can sway them forever. The likelihood of hostilities, whether now or in the future, seems high, and we should prepare as such.

I had hoped that this talk ended with the signing of the pact.

[Drogue]

As did I. However Flubber is on holiday

That is not a threat. What Herc means is that the probe that was going to go to ROze to get Ind Base will now be changed somewhere else. It is not a threat to us, although we should be wary. Don't we have infiltration anyway being Pact Brothers? I agree with Maniac, and will play about with the Science Plan to get Ind Auto, Doc Flex and Non Math/SFF ASAP. I think if we have to give an extra tech to get this deal, it would be worth it personally. We get Ind Auto sooner, and that means can wage war sooner. However without the deal, they won't have laser or synthmetal Talk about easy targets. Take a base or two, then ask then milk them to end the war

[Drogue]

Maniac: What was the cancelled PM about? What happened?

[Maniac]

When I saw yesterday evening both you and johndmuller were online, I sent a PM to both of you to suggest an online chat and deal swiftly with the IndAut matter. A few minutes later though, you posted Herc's PM here, and a few more minutes later, you went offline. So I cancelled the PM.

[Drogue]

Maniac: If you haven't read it yet, I wouldn't read the e-mail for JDM, you'll want to kill him.

He sent two, here they are:

Drogue (and cc to Maniac,

Thank you for the reminder of how pleasant it is to negotiate with you .

Perhaps if I refute several of your points before I tell you our position, I will feel more Pact Brotherly and less like cutting your throat.

First, you may say that how we came across these techs is of no concern to you (they why did Maniac demand to know information about that), but it is damn well your concern whether you like it or not - it is part of our costs and as such it is a large part of determining their value to us and people who are concerned one minute and unconcerned the next are obviously not thinking about it very clearly.

Thank you for the tutorial on the value of the various techs; on our part, we are offering a seminar on the value of having Industrial Econ and Industrial Auto in a few turns (which apparently you think is rather low), versus it taking 25, 30, 40 or more years to get to IndAuto. This seminar is available free - all you have to do to sign up is to keep on negotiating like you are and you will find out exactly what the value is. As a Pact Brother, we will give you a brief course excerpt:

". . . consider if you will, the probability of having a particular tech withheld to be 1/3; to be offered: 2/3. Then the probability of having the desired tech offered [/u]two times in a row[u] would be 2/3 * 2/3 or 4/9; there are also 4 chances in 9 of it taking 3 research cycles and 1 chance in nine of it taking 4 cycles. Students, all good pirates know that . . . . "

For your information, our tech rate is nearly the same as yours, especially considering that we are temporarily emphasizing nutrient production at the expense of energy at what is normally our best research base. As you have not yet started on your next project, we are likely on a pace to finish our next projects at about the same time; we may even finish sooner. You bring up tech rate in your discussion - that is exactly why we consider acquiring some of these techs to be less than desirable; we will have to take on the burden of increased research costs (not to mention acquisition costs) associated with the two techs of marginal utility to us at the moment, except to facillitate this deal (that is not to say that these techs are useless, only that they are not necessary for us right now, especiallyl if they come with restrictions).

Your cash offer is insultingly low. 25 P's of E does not represent a fair share of 200 P's of E. As a price for the HGP, it is utterly rediculous.

I was still working on this reply, when Cap'n Hercules tuned into Ambassador Drogue's response and having been a little low on xenorum, flew off the handle and accidentallly fired a cannon volley into the beautiful Library Ship we were preparing as a surprise for our Pact Brothers, sending all that reading material to the Davey Jones School of FungaFish.



Need I emphasize the importance of being rational? Consider your situation before our offer and consider it afterwards - need I say more?



Now consider your situation at the present time, having alienated your Pact Brethren, insulted them by spitting on their fine offers, and even adding unnecessary restrictions to the technology we don't really even want at the moment.



If you require yet another gesture of out sincerity, perhaps I can get the your cash portion reduced to 75 ec's from 100, but only if you act now - should you force us to switch to IndAuto, losing a bit of our accumulated research and having to risk not being able to research what we want the next time, then the price of this deal will go up, (along with Cap'n Herc's temper - don't know what he'll shoot at next).



Please act soon, as Cap'n Herc is getting that guilty feeling from holding up the turn. Some of this can be negotiated later, as nothing really critical has to happen now (except our decision to switch to IndAuto research); just remember that the deal will not be so sweet if you don't take this opportunity.



Of course, if you don't take this deal, you still have time to sign up for my seminar.



Cap'n BrownBeard . . . the Cuspidore

(New stuff here, old stuff below)
I've been having weird stuff going on that I take to be some hacker activity like a nastier version of those direct-to-your-IP-address popups, only this seems to crash some of the service routines, making things difficult, like copying and drag and dropping. I'm now using another computer that is behind my token useless nonexistent firewall, which strangely, considering how little protection there is, doesn't seem to be affected, while I download a supposed fix (which wants a newer Service Pack than I have, which has to be downloaded, . . ., etc., etc, etc (are you bored yet?)). Anyway the fact that this all seemed to start when I was trying to copy Drogue's tactlessly stubborn refusal to do business did not help our negotiations one bit since obviously I concluded that Drogue was doing it somehow (or had turned in my IP address to the hackers) in the hopes that he could take over my computer and send confusing messages to Cap'n Hercules getting him to give away the store. Fortunately, Herc's computer is effed up more than mine by some other problem, so this kind of stuff doesn't fool him at all cause he doesn't expect to be able to post even, let alone copy and paste. So naturally he was also incensed as now he knows you to be the source of all his computer troubles too. Aren't you glad you sent that belligerent message with all those worms and viruses in it? Just the ticket to get what you want from the other side.

(beginning of substantive stuff if you are in a hurry)
By the time you get this, if this is the first you are seeing it, Cap'n Herc may have already taken the turn. Since he is the one taking the turns, he gets the last word on things, so while I think I know what he is going to do, I don't know for absolute sure, as there were a couple of things we were vacillating on (like whether to bombard your terraforming or to probe away your terraformers and have them undo it). In any case, no matter what he did, we still have time to conclude an agreement, and if you are having as much fun doing this as we are (NOT!!), we can continue negotiating into your turn and even perhaps beyond, although to do that would be rather risky, in that the ability to deal with not being offered IndAuto would be compromised UNLESS YOU RETARD YOUR RESEARCH (since I don't think I mentioned it below, I am repeating it here - PLEASE SLOW DOWN YOUR RESEARCH. If you fail to retard your research, it will be impossible to be certain of getting IndAuto in the short term and that will change everything, negotiationswise, not to mention gamefortunewise, as we are otherwise talking about in any case.

As far as the rest of this message goes, I am not changing the terms any except that if nothing has changed by the time you get the turn, you will have the opportunity to reevaluate your positions upon checking out the trade box and our research posture and making the appropriate inferences.

the Cuspidore BB

I sent the most civil reply I could, considering the insults, threats and foundless accusations:

I am sorry you feel that we are being tactless and stubborn. I was merely stating what was our position, and offering a small number of ec, it was intended to be negotiating, and neither are we having fun. We expected a fair deal, as per the terms of our pact, and not to be asked for techs and large sums, that we simply cannot afford.

Let me first assure you that I am in no way responsible for your virus/worm or whatever it is. Not only do I have absolutely no idea how to create/send such a program, I have absolutely no wish to.

I am sorry if you feel aggrieved by my style. I believe I was civil, unlike your scathing and thinly veiled insults in reply.

Regarding the money. If we paid half of your costs, then we have both shelled out 100ec a piece for those techs. Therefore why would it be fair for us to offer you two techs and 100ec, when you expend 100ec? Yes 25ec is not a fair share of 200. But we are offering 2 techs and 25ec. If this deal is so useless to you, then why did you propose it? Saying that, I am currently trying to get you more money, as I can see the value of this deal, but it took a hell of a lot to try to get any consessions on the table.

We have considered our position, and indeed it is very much better if we make the deal, as is yours. We both gain a lot. I wish to give you more to make it more beneficial to you, but I am bound by what the others want. People feel very agreeved that a Pact Brother would try to take that much off us, and the style with which some felt they were led on. I disagree, but as I said, some feel like that.

Lastly, I never 'tactlessly refused to do business'. I merely offered a small sum as an extra, to start off bidding. I did not expect a stream of insults, nor to be simply told the deal was off (as Herc did). I expected to be asked for more, but I am afraid due to circumstance at the moment, i don't think we can afford that much more. We simply don't have the funds. I will talk to Maniac about retarding our research, but as you know we have not had a turn to do so yet.

I hope you are feeling more civil when you receive this,a nd I am sorry if you feel agreeved by our actions, we have not attempted to insult or annoy any PEACE members. And in pushing for more money which we cannot afford, while reminding us vehemently that we should sign the deal, has made many just want to through the towel in. I think it might be able to be salvaged, and I will look to try to get you the 75ec, however I can promise nothing until I have asked the faction.

As with the accusations regarding your computer problems, I find it extremely insulting that you would accuse someone of that. Why would I want to? What could I possibly gain? Herc has been having problems far longer than since I emailed him, and i've been emailing him (we play PBEM) for quite some time, with no difficultly. Moreover, I could if I wanted too. I am not a computer person. I use the net, I can't program or anything, and I've never found/sent/known myself to have a virus. Please direct your random accusations elsewhere, it has nothing to do with me.

Yours
- Drogue

IMHO, that's PEACE diplomacy over with. It's time for impact foils and Vendetta.

To use a now famous British slogan:
"There is a time for diplomacy - this isn't it" .....

I am sorry if I wrecked things. I felt I was pretty civil, all things considering. But I have had enough with diplomacy with idiots like JDM. Let's see how he likes to see the end of an impact gun

[Maniac]

johndmuller is amazing. My jaw was on the floor after reading his second mail. I say we should refuse to continue this ACDG, unless
a) johndmuller apologizes to you.
b) johndmuller leaves this ACDG.
Unless this breaks the rule of no communications before contact, I think we should also write a special 3D edition exposing to all factions what the Pirates are doing. It gives other people the info we have met the Pirates, but it might make people more wary for the Pirates.

[Drogue]

I am a bit miffed, and it would be nice, but I can't see him apologising, and there is no way for us to throw him out of the DG. I don't think it's worth quitting the DG over. However if they wish to sour relations like this, that is fine by me. I agree with the article. Let us simply do an account of us meeting. That should do the trick. It is an article about our history, nothing more. As long as we don't do anything forbidden, I see no problem. I say we refuse to deal with JDM though. We can still (if we wish) contact PEACE, but just refuse to discuss with JDM?

If someone else wants to write it, that is ok, if not, i will I was always told the best revenge was living well, so I intend to wipe the floor with them

Googlie: Does what JDM did count as misconduct in your opinion? I don't wish to get him banned from the DG, but is there anything that could be done, such as banning him from direct diplomacy with other factions? I don't wish to persue it much further, but it would be nice to know he can't keep insulting people in communication. Even if that isn't possible, at least we know they're not going to get very far diplomactically.

[Maniac]

If you would write the article, would you include the history of our negotiations concerning IndAut? Because I would really like to hear a third person's opinion concerning the Pirate demands. Are we really that unreasonable, or have the Pirates truly gone mad??

[Maniac]

I wrote this PM to Hercules btw:

Hello Hercules,

Are you aware of this mail johndmuller has sent to Drogue and me? An extract out of it:

Quote:

Sorry; I sent the additional message out yesterday without a Subject - I suppose you got it anyway, but I'm re-sending it below in case you took it for spam and deleted it. (New stuff here, old stuff below) I've been having weird stuff going on that I take to be some hacker activity like a nastier version of those direct-to-your-IP-address popups, only this seems to crash some of the service routines, making things difficult, like copying and drag and dropping. I'm now using another computer that is behind my token useless nonexistent firewall, which strangely, considering how little protection there is, doesn't seem to be affected, while I download a supposed fix (which wants a newer Service Pack than I have, which has to be downloaded, . . ., etc., etc, etc (are you bored yet?)). Anyway the fact that this all seemed to start when I was trying to copy Drogue's tactlessly stubborn refusal to do business did not help our negotiations one bit since obviously I concluded that Drogue was doing it somehow (or had turned in my IP address to the hackers) in the hopes that he could take over my computer and send confusing messages to Cap'n Hercules getting him to give away the store. Fortunately, Herc's computer is effed up more than mine by some other problem, so this kind of stuff doesn't fool him at all cause he doesn't expect to be able to post even, let alone copy and paste. So naturally he was also incensed as now he knows you to be the source of all his computer troubles too. Aren't you glad you sent that belligerent message with all those worms and viruses in it? Just the ticket to get what you want from the other side.

It's likely johndmuller is just rambling. He seems to have shown an inclination to do so lately... However, if not so, do you really believe Drogue of all people [note to Drogue: emphasizing your "kindheartiness" ] is somehow responsible for the computer problems you are having lately??
We may be having serious misunderstandings in-game (We truly do not understand at all how you could see SocPsych plus 20 ec equal to PlaNets, nor do we understand how PEACE can consider three techs and 75/100 ec equal to two techs. ), but I hope we are all mature enough to seperate the demo game issues from real-life, instead of accusing the other side of hacking.

I hope you can shed some more light on johndmuller's disturbing mail.

Friendly greetings,

Maniac

[Drogue]

Thank you for that I was going to send a mail to Herc assuring him I had nothing to do with his problems. About the unreasonable, I think they are more than us. I understand how they think the loss of the probe ship, and the 200ec for the techs makes it worth more, but I think at this stage, it is about 20/25ec more, not the 100 they want. We want equal tech trades, one for one. We are prepared to offer a little sweetener. I don't see how that could be unreasonable. Especially since in offering it, we have shown a willingness to negotiate. A flat refusale like that could be seen as unreasonable. I can understand why they are, they don't see the logic of our arguments about the ec meaning we should have part ownership (half costs - near half ownership) and I know they get very aggravated when they don't get what they want, but we are not going to role over and take it.

In short, we may have a been a little 'cut of our nose to spite our face', as we would gain from offering more, but we have put up slightly more than half IMHO, and therefore I think we have some justification. As a game theorist, looking at how much they have to gain too (from what I know, could be something they know we don't, but then you cannot enter that into negotiation) they have acted illogically. They point out how much we have to gain, in arguments that mean the same for them.

Thanks for the support Maniac. We can do well without it though. We just have to research/meet others to get it. It is early days, and we have not had a bad start. We have a lot of potential, and they will suffer because of it. Pirates suck at war, they cannot produce as well, being sea people. We shouldn't have too much trouble

[Googlie]

[Drogue]

Have received an email from JDM, a lot nicer, and he was joking. Almost convinced me to try to save the deal. Almost. I think we actually should, get Ind Auto, and then take them out

Heres the email:

Dearest Ambassador Drogue,

-We are most sorry that you took seriously our attempt to lighten up the negotiations with the discussion of computer problems. Although it is true that I first noticed the problem when I was trying to copy your disagreeable response over to our foruim I never for a moment seriously considered that you had intentionally transmitted a virus or whatever to me, nor did I think it very likely that you had even accidentally done so; it probably contributed to my irritability and impatience because it was definitely crimping my style; however, while it might have made my message less pleasant (apparently enough so to cause you to take the hacker accusation seriously) it did not lead me to harden our negotiating position. As you should know by now, I represent the moderate views in our faction and I am trying to further this mutually beneficial deal, despite these difficult negotiations. As to the reference to Cap'n Hercules problems, while I have no evide nce one way or the other, I have no trouble believing that you are also innocent of any black ops against his system; that was merely another attempt at levity.

Regarding the negotiations - we have been obliged to switch our research to Industrial Auto in order to protect our interests; that is a waste of tech points for which you are partially responsible and as promised, will be reflected in our bargaining position. Consider your discount offer to have expired as promised.

The current situation is that we will get Industrial Auto in 10 to 15 years (our current lab production is temporarily depressed as our best research base, 'Rita, is emphasizing nutrient production) and you will get it in 25 to 30 years if you are lucky and 30, 40 or 50 years if you are not.

You need to focus on your own situation, not on whether or not we are making a profit on the trade - we are traders, that is our job; you are researchers, your job is to do the research. In order to do our job, we need a decent supply of tradeable techs and a decent supply of Pieces of Eight; please do not begrudge us a reasonable profit on what is still a really really good deal for you - that is what traders do, make a good profit while still offering the customers a really good deal; everyone wins.

Another part of our job is security. Not that you are unable to defend yourselves, but we are in a much better position to do that since it appears that you are isolated geographically from the AI neigbors by the various waterways surrounding your territory (at least so far it seems that way to us) and the water is our thing. We therefore, need to maintain our focus on maratime affairs and not have to waste too much of our production capability on Labs and Econ producing facilities; that is your job. Please remember how expensive foil based units are until Fusion arrives, and we need a lot of them. Obviously, if we each specialize in the things we are good at, then that will be a most efficient approach; the degree to which we overlap produces a corresponding inefficiency.

While we wish a profit, we do not wish to bankrupt our customers, we would be happy to accept your IOU for much of the cash portion of this deal and you could pay the rest of it over time. We are also open to other items of exchange than cash and techs, but at the moment, it is unclear what other items might be more convenient or economical for you to provide to us; we are certainly open to you ideas though.

Please try to avoid focussing exclusively on how you think we are trying to rip you off; if we wanted to rip you off, we would do it directly, rather than screw around with this BS.

Yours truly ,

the Cuspidore BrownBeard

[Method]

can someone give a short explanation to function is-too-lazy-to-read-long-post Sigma-4?

[Googlie]

[Maniac]

I will never agree with giving 75 ec to those Pirates.
I would ask how they feel about trading IndBase for IndEco, once we have researched it.