PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Maniac]

They got a great deal in getting Plan Nets from you

Ha! Now you hear it from someone else. We shouldn't have given them PlaNets just like that the previous time. "Game Theory" can go to hell for all I care!

[DeathByTheSword]

JDM last PM looks more like it. and i agree with Googlie`s analyse. we are in a bad position relative to there`s. we should still try to trade. but maybe a totally other deal. if this doesnt work. we fight.

[Corellion]

You know, that's a good idea... let's propose a deal for once and force THEM to reject it. If nothing else, it provides more proof of their continued unfriendliness, and a better case for war.

Edit: I believe Drogue at one point proposed a Ind Base for Ind Auto swap. It sounds perfect.

[Drogue]

Maniac: Don't they have Ind Base? They are currently researching Ind Auto IIRC. Personally, I'd rather not give them synthmetal. But hey, we want Ind Auto, so might be worth it. Ask Miriam for Roze's commfreq though, they might have met. If not.

Since this deal seems to be slipping, can I try one last gasp attempt? JDM seems to be so sure of how much use it is to us, that I will try to make it seem like it isn't, ie. maybe we've met someone else who can trade part of it. He says that we're illogical in not going for it, but he doesn't know how much it's worth to us. I'll write it tonight, when I get home.

Manaic: we didn't lose out with Plan Nets, they would have got it anyway. We each got Soc Psy, and we got 20ec of them too. We both would have had Plan Nets anyway, so that didn't make much difference. I think we gained a lot last time, considering we they would have Plan Nets whatever we did.

[DeathByTheSword]

they can check who we met on the blablabla-F5-orsomethinglikethat-screen...so i dont know if that would work

[Maniac]

Maniac: Don't they have Ind Base?

No. PEACE bought IndEco from the Angels. That's how they could research IndAut now.

Manaic: we didn't lose out with Plan Nets, they would have got it anyway.

I know I know. I was just expressing my "frustration".
/me tries to hide he's currently part of the Unimatrix experiment.

Btw guys, I just realized something. The AI is usually unwilling to sell any tech which gives access to a secret project. So why would the Angels now want to sell it to PEACE? I think this whole deal was impossible right from the start... Having that information, may I send this PM to the Pirates? Or should I wait until we actually have the Angel commlink?

Hello Cuspidore BrownBeard and Captain Hercules,

I just realized something which I should have realized at the start of the negotiations: AI factions don't sell techs which give access to secret projects. So unless you can somehow give me assurance you can get IndBase, I have to assume the Angels won't trade. This of course makes our whole bickering pointless. Without IndBase, there's no way the CyCon could, with your help of course, research IndAut in three or four years. This means we also have no more reason to slow down our research. We'll have to research Industrial Base, and you'll have to research IndAut on your own tempo. May I therefore suggest we close this chapter, as external circumstances make the deal impossible?

There's something else the Consciousness should have realized but didn't because we were so focused on the negotiations with you. Fortunately DeathByTheSword pointed it to us yesterday night. We have the commlink frequency of Miriam as Drogue and I already mentioned to you twice. We also have reason to believe she has met the Angels. This means that in our next turn we could probably buy the Angels frequency for just a few ec. Then a few turns later, when our credit reserves have grown to 100 ec again, we could buy IndEco from the Angels ourselves. Who knows with a bit of luck (4 chances on 9 according to you) we might reach IndAut at the same time of you. With this new information you also loose your monopoly of our sole tech supplier you previously had, and you can no longer demand more than you give because of the relative advantage you had.

Though we could buy IndEco from the Angels, I personally prefer to trade with our pact brothers instead of with one of Googlie's souped-up AIs. But it would have to be on a one-tech-for-one-tech basis. Therefore I propose you give us IndEco. In exchange we would give you the valuable tech of

[Fellow Cyborgs, please choose the text I should insert]
a) Biogenetics. Yes, valuable. You may claim you do not need the tech, but I don't buy that. Biogenetics is a prerequisite for Gene Splicing, which is one of the key techs for the Pirates with all their kelp farms.
b) Industrial Base. Yes, valuable. You may claim you do not need the tech because you're aiming for 3-res armour, but I don't buy that. Industrial Base is a prerequisite for no less than three other techs besides IndEco. It also is necessary for Adaptive Doctrine, which is one of the key techs for the Pirates because of the marine detachment special ability.

If you would be interested in such a deal, please contact me. You know my commlink.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Drogue]

I would be very against putting that personally.

Firstly: They will be very aggreved that we assume they are lying without evidence. Find out if Roze would sell it first, we haven't played this AI before, it could act differently.

Secondly: Don't tell them about getting Roze. I think I have a way of putting it much more subtley, accentuating the fact that we might not have so much to gain, thus it isn't worth 75ec. IMHO you give them too much informatio there. The way I would put it might be a bit misleading to them, but I don't think that would work.

Lastly: They won't accept that trade. JDN got very annoyed when I pointed out how good those techs were, and they don't want them anyway. Remember they go on about how they are two useless techs they would need to get.

I think we should convince them we haven't got that much to gain, and we have other ways of getting Ind Auto (they reckon it would take us 20-50 years, which it won't. If they see that it isn't worth 100ec to us, I think they may accept the 25ec. I won't offer anymore. What do you think?

[Maniac]

Firstly: They will be very aggreved that we assume they are lying without evidence.

You mean about IndBase? It wasn't my intention to suggest they are lying. I was assuming they had forgotten as well AIs don't trade SP techs.

Find out if Roze would sell it first, we haven't played this AI before, it could act differently.

That would involve us having to wait until we have 100 ec to buy IndEco from the Angels. Besides, they have sold to PEACE. Why wouldn't they to us?

Secondly: Don't tell them about getting Roze. I think I have a way of putting it much more subtley, accentuating the fact that we might not have so much to gain, thus it isn't worth 75ec.

Our previous attempts to make them clear it isn't worth 75 ec to us didn't get through to under their skulls. I don't think subtle messages work on those Pirates. This would be better --->

Lastly: They won't accept that trade.

So what? Then we just sell from Roze. It's their choice. According to "game theory" , I presume it would be in their advantage to accept. Actually even if we would eg only offer 50 ec for IndEco. It's better than nothing.

If they see that it isn't worth 100ec to us, I think they may accept the 25ec. I won't offer anymore. What do you think?

You're still assuming here the Pirates can get IndBase from the Angels. I seriously doubt that.
If not send them the whole PM right now, I would at least send something like this:

Hello Cuspidore BrownBeard and Captain Hercules,

I just realized something which I should have realized at the start of the negotiations: AI factions don't sell techs which give access to secret projects. So I have to ask: are you sure the Angels are willing to trade IndBase, or did you forget this annoying AI behaviour as well? If they won't trade, this of course makes all of our past bickering pointless. Without IndBase, there's no way the CyCon could, with your help of course, research IndAut in three or four years. This means we also have no more reason to slow down our research. We'll be forced to research Industrial Base, and you'll have to research IndAut on your own tempo.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
You mean about IndBase? It wasn't my intention to suggest they are lying. I was assuming they had forgotten as well AIs don't trade SP techs.

Point taken. Sorry, being an idiot

Originally posted by Maniac
Our previous attempts to make them clear it isn't worth 75 ec to us didn't get through to under their skulls. I don't think subtle messages work on those Pirates. This would be better --->

No. We have previously concentrated on the fact that they gain more than us, and we wanted a fair deal. JDM wants us to concentrate on how much we gain. He has a point. I want to point out to him that we have less to game than he thinks (and than we actually do). Such as hint that we know someone who can trade it. State that it is worth less to us than they seem to think, but only hint at the reasons. Being so blatant about Roze gives him an opportunity to argue against it. If we don't state it, but hint at even more reasons why we would get it earlier without them, then they may agree that we have less to gain, and so sell for cheaper.

Originally posted by Maniac
So what? Then we just sell from Roze. It's their choice. According to "game theory" , I presume it would be in their advantage to accept. Actually even if we would eg only offer 50 ec for IndEco. It's better than nothing.

But they don't want us to have it. If we ask them that, we have wrecked the deal. There isn't a point asking to trade soemthing we want (and they know it) for something that don't want. They don't want Ind Base, or Biogenetics. They will simply reject it, and JDM will think we're patronising them about the techs.

Originally posted by Maniac
If not send them the whole PM right now, I would at least send something like this

Looks good Although the last part isn't needed IMHO, and it seems a little preaching, like your trying to say the deals off and we want to speed up research. I would put something like:

Hello Cuspidore BrownBeard and Captain Hercules,

I just realized something which I should have realized at the start of the negotiations: AI factions don't sell techs which give access to secret projects Are you sure the Angels are willing to trade IndBase, or did you forget this annoying AI behaviour as well? If they won't trade, this deal is sadly not possible

Make it seem like a genuine concern, like we want the deal, and not like we're trying to find a way out. Just a few observations. I would leave the rest. I will write something tonight for you to look at, and see what you think, if that's ok?

[Maniac]

No. We have previously concentrated on...

Ok. I'll await your diplomatic proposal of tonight.

Originally posted by Drogue
But they don't want us to have it.

Do you mean : "But they don't want to have Biogen or IndBase."? Would they agree then if we offer them 50/75 ec in exchange for IndEco, and say we will trade with Roze if they don't agree with that deal? (Jee, that sounds too much like a threat, while my only intention would be to state a mere diplomatic reality. )

Looks good Although the last part isn't needed IMHO, and it seems a little preaching, like your trying to say the deals off and we want to speed up research. I would put something like:... ...I will write something tonight for you to look at, and see what you think, if that's ok?

Ok. Do you intend to include the IndBase inquiry in your PM, or should it be sent seperately?

[Drogue]

Originally posted by Maniac
Do you mean : "But they don't want to have Biogen or IndBase."?

Yes.

Originally posted by Maniac
Would they agree then if we offer them 50/75 ec in exchange for IndEco

Almost certainly no. They paid 100ec for it, I am pretty sure they won't sell it for anything less, even though they gain. It seems our Pact Brothers are more concerned with us not having it than with helping themselves financially Being that neither of our faction is at all likely to win alone, I would have thought a mutual sharing, even without ec, would raise a chance of a join victory massively. But sadly they feel rocky about our Pact, and unless they begin to trust us, and us them, I can't see this being a Pact from mutual victory. If we try, they will through a fit about us wanting it for less, and them having to pay more, etc... They cannot see that they gain from us having it and for the ec we are willing to pay. I think we have to contact Roze.

I suggest we ally with the Hive when we find them, towards victory. We have good relations with them, we provide the tech, they provide the units (we give them a tech i exchange for them transfering units to our control) and thus together we can win. Neither us nor the Hive are likely to win alone, and together we can fight Buster/Archaic who are likely to IMHO. Very soon I think we'll gain more from war than Pact with PEACE. Unless we run FM (commerce ).

Originally posted by Maniac
and say we will trade with Roze if they don't agree with that deal? (Jee, that sounds too much like a threat, while my only intention would be to state a mere diplomatic reality. )

I know, it is sad how meanings can seem misrepresentative However that is the truth. How about when you get the turn, start playing immediately, and contact Miriam, to get Roze's commlink. If you can get it, then tell PEACE Roze contacted us and offered it, but if they will undercut her, we will trade with them. If we can't get the link, then bluff it, and claim she has anyway But wait until we know, it will effect our negotiations.

Originally posted by Maniac
Ok. Do you intend to include the IndBase inquiry in your PM, or should it be sent seperately?

Probably better to send it now if you wish, but either is fine. You could send it now if you wish, or I'll send it later

[Maniac]

PM and mail sent.

[Maniac]

Woops! I just found some e-mails in my inbox in answer to my mail about IndBase. Any suggestions what I should answer, or should I ignore them until we have our turn and can tell for sure we have Roze's frequency (and thus 95% sure IndEco in say three turns, and eg 66% chance of researching IndAut ourselves in 13 turns.)? In any case, they seem to be softening up. Perhaps our relative silence of the last two days is making it clear to them we aren't gonna tolerate their attitude. At times bluffing and refusing to negotiate can be better than begging, even if we are in a relatively worse position.

Hercules' mail 1:

Hi Mani-Alpha-3, and new Emperor Drogue

Thanks for your recent communication re our aquisition of Ind Econ. You are quite right to raise these matters.

First we were most fired up by the fact we had acquired Ind Econ ( from
Roze) and then we saw the unique opportunity of what I call the 'leap frog' move, a strategy ( not necessarily with that name, that is well known in these circles, whereby thru co-operation, factions can jump a couple of tech levels), from which we could both benefit.

The message from DJ was that she was asking for 100 ecs per tech. When offered Ind Econ, for 100ecs, after much soul searching , we paid it, because we could see the advantage to both our factions, and the chance of Ind Auto, because of your research line, but it was a blind risk.

We thought. you would welcome and be appreciative of the chance to get to Ind Auto some 30 years( approx) ahead of your schedule and especially (as I pointed out to you ) the Drones and Hive already have it ( Ind Auto). That factor doesn't seem to have sunk in.

Regarding acquiring Ind base: we the Pirates have a number of options to obtain it: ( one via negotiation) But you ( Cycon) think that this is not really an option because of the AI set up to refuse access to selling a SP tech which is still operative.. We're not sure about that in a MP situation (researching)

Second option, probe it. Our party boat (spy boat is now out there. It is currently headed to an AI base, but we would not be surprised if a new Data J base became available and within reach. ( no guarantee here of course)

There is the strong possibility we will come into contact with a faction that have Ind Base.

In summary, We have a number of opportunities of obtaining Ind Base. We want to look on the positive side. If we don't secure Ind Base, well no real harm done, apart from set back. If we can secure Ind Base within the next turn, the world (our joint
world) is our oyster.

But please indicate willingness to continue negotiation.

Hercules' mail 2:

Hi Prime, second, third, fourth and the next algorithmic important functions.

We have kept the door of opportunity open and if I may so, logically so have you.

Prime Function Mani -Alpha 3 - has alerted us to the possibility that we ( the Pirates) may not be able to obtain Ind Base next turn. We are not so sure.We believe there is more than a 50 : 50 chance of obtaining it.

If we obtain it ( Ind base) we are keen to initiate the 'leap frog' procedure.

As Cuspidore BB explained and has published his theory in the learned journal ' Scientific Planetarian', ( excerpts of which have been published elsewhere), there is a pattern as to how techs are offered. It is his , my and our faction view that a tech such Ind Auto ( provided the pre-requisite techs are in place), becomes available as a choice option with known frequency rate of participation.

We believe the tech choice ( Ind Auto) will be available to the Cycon, next year or the year after and more importantly because of the years
already spent in research by team members (transfered to the new
research objective), the year of discovery would be within 2/3 years; as opposed to perhaps 20+ years.

Let's focus on that prize.

But for us to even have a chance you must set back your discovery rate by 1 or 2 years, in order to be offered Ind Auto at some stage.

Perhaps a way forward is to put in one column the things we are agreed on and in another column the things that are in dispute. And agree to resolve the disaputed items afterwards in the luxury of Ind Auto. [Note from Maniac: ]

I feel we can secure Ind Base next turn, if so I want us to progress to Ind Auto. If we can't then the deal is off.

johndmuller's mail:

Mani,

That's an interesting point, I wasn't thinking that would happen so early in the game; you're talking about where they say something like "I can't trade the xxx (Tech) to you because I don't want to the xxx (SP) to fall into your hands", right? I think of it as happening later in the game when you're in first place and the AI is seething at everyone and they are either building the thing or it is one of their own kind of SPs, like this one would be for Morgan. I wouldn't have thought that it happens ALL the time, as you are suggesting; has there been a thread on that or something?

Anyway, Cap'n Herc sounded pretty confident that we could get it - maybe it was mentioned in one of those dialog boxes where they offer you a trade, (like in this case maybe she asked for our Doc:Flex, offering IndEcon) and there are a couple of alternatives listed in the responses - like were you say "OK, but give me IndBase instead of IndEcon". *next sentence censored on johndmuller's request*

How much can you retard you research, I know you are pretty close, and I'm pretty sure that you could do 1 extra year without much trouble, but I don't really know exactly what the effects of changing your allocation (or if necessary you energy production) might be since you can't access a pactmate's SE screen. Short of inducing Drone riots (and maybe not even then) there is still the bases' own production even if you put all your workers in the fungus, so there may be a minimum, not to mention the pain I am sure you would be feeling at the massive inefficiency (the prescription for that is to think about all the years we could be shaving off the IndAuto track).

Anyway, Herc didn't seem troubled by anything like that and he is more prone to worrying than you would think that anyone with a gut so full of xenogrog could be.

BrownBeard

[Corellion]

Well, they seem to be being more agreeable now.

[Chaunk]

I'm inclined to think we should slow down our research and try and deal. We do need IndAuto, and so this is definatly to our advantage to try and do so.

They are still our pact brothers after all!

[Maniac]

I've just opened the turn and contacted the Believers. They asked us Doc:Mob because of the UN Charter and all that. I refused. Then I asked them for the Angel frequency. They offered it for 25 ec. I gladly accepted and made a small dance besides my computer. Now we only have 95 ec. Probably 5 too short to buy IndEco from the Angels, so I didn't contact them yet.
I'll write a mail to the Pirates right away informing them of this new situation.

Good to know for negotiations:

• The Pirates have accumulated 4 labs in their research to IndAut. This probably means they have lost 4 labs by having to switch.
• At economy-psych-labs 50-0-50 or 40-0-60 we produce 8 ec and 15.6 labs per year. At the 70-0-30 necessary to delay our research we produce 13 ec and 6 labs. This means a loss of 4.6 energy. 4.6 - 4 = 0.6. Ergo the Pirates should pay us 0.6 credits.

[Maniac]

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

First, thanks for your mails concerning Industrial Base. As Cuspidore BrownBeard mentioned, I was indeed thinking of my SP experience while being the most powerful faction when I thought the AI wouldn't want to trade. It may be different now. But let's get down to business:

Our turn has just arrived. This means we can continue our negotiations. I am now authorized to disclose to you a crucial piece of information which we didn't inform you of yet because we weren't a 100% sure it could be realized. But now it is: We have established contact with the Data Angels.

As of now, we are capable of buying Industrial Economics from the Data Angels ourselves. When we have done so, we could switch our research immediately to Industrial Automation and research IndAut in five or six years. However that would mean we would loose half of our labs currently accumulated towards Industrial Base. Therefore it might be recommended to complete our research of IndBase first and then research IndAut. Using that tactic we would still research IndAut around the same time of you. You may now realize why there is no way we would ever give you three techs and 100 ec to get IndAut ten turns earlier (so certainly not the 50 turns you wanted us to believe).

Despite this new situation we would still prefer to trade with you, our pact brothers, instead of with one of Googlie's souped-up AIs. However we want to be treated and respected as EQUAL PARTNERS in this endeavour. Concrete this means a trade on the basis of "one-tech-for-one-tech".

Therefore I repeat my previous offer:

We offer:
Biogen
IndAut

You offer:
IndBase
IndEcon

We are willing to discuss the details of the deal - for example if you would want credits or some future tech we research instead of the "worthless" Biogen, or if you would want some credits in exchange for the restrictions we would like on Biogenetics trading if we give it to you - but since we now are in the same position to get IndAut in less than fifteen years the base model remains: one tech for one tech.

***

Ah yes, one little and funny thing I quickly checked after I got the turn. You have accumulated 4 labs in your research to IndAut. This probably means you have lost 4 labs by having to switch last turn. At economy-psych-labs 50-0-50 or 40-0-60 we produce 8 ec and 15.6 labs per year. At the 70-0-30 necessary to delay our research one year we produce 13 ec and 6 labs. This means a loss of 4.6 energy. 4.6 minus 4 is 0.6. Ergo you owe us zero point six credits. ;-)))))))

Friendly greetings, :-)

Mani Alpha-3

[Corellion]

Excellent... it's great levelling the playing field for once, and wiping the smiles off those illogical pirates' faces.

[Corellion]

Er, one problem I just realised.

If we were to purchase Ind Eco from the Angels, it would cost us credits. PEACE is most likely going to bring up the argument that, because they've paid that price, and we won't have to, we should pay them some credits.

Unfortunately, I view this as a valid and logical argument. Seeing as it is unlikely they will accept the deal without any credits, then we should probably offer a couple as a sweetener if they ask. Although the 100 they've proposed seems a bit much, we should agree upon an acceptable amount. Perhaps the External Affairs Function can begin a poll to determine how many credits we are willing to part with.

[Maniac]

If they bring up that argument, I will them that we would gladly pay them half the price it cost(-ed in past time?) them to purchase IndEcon. In other words 50 ec. But I will always tell them that, since by paying them 50 credits we now own half the rights of IndEcon, we would no longer give them a tech in exchange for IndEcon.

Nevertheless I would be fully willing to give them an extra 30 credits. With anything more I'd start to worry about our finances.

[Corellion]

Sounds reasonable... I would have stopped at about 25, but 30 isn't too much of a sacrifice.

BTW, the past of cost is cost... costed isn't a word. Thus, you were correct in the first place.

[Maniac]

johndmuller's response:

Cap'n Herc and I may not get to talk about this for a little bit due to the time zone thing, so I thought I'd give you my initial take on your proposition in the meantime.

For a message that is titled 'Let's continue our negotiations', it seems to offer a noticable lack of negotiations - one can't help noticing that you have not changed your offer at all.

If you want to pay 100 credits to Roze instead of to your pactmate, that speaks volumes.

You also seem to be taking for granted that you will have the opportunity to research what you want, a proposition which is not guaranteed; apparently you slept through my seminar.

We are prepared to negotiate; please let us know when you are similarly inclined.

the Cuspidore.

My response:

Hello Cuspidore (cc to Herc),

First, do you really constantly need to make unfairly acid comments like "you show a lack of willingness to negotiate" or "it speaks volumes you want to pay 100 ec to the Angels"? They upset many cyborgs and decrease their willingness to trade, even if trading would be in our advantage.

I mentioned in my mail that we were willing to discuss the details of the deal. However the base model should remain one tech for one tech. This seems only logical seeing the current situation. As mentioned before, we are willing to offer a few credits for possible Biogen restrictions or to compensate for the claimed uselessness of IndBase - despite it being prequisite for three other techs you don't have - but certainly not a 100.

Yes we are willing to pay 100 credits to Roze. But that does not speak volumes. As said in my previous mail, we would prefer to trade with you, but if we have the choice to get IndEco in exchange for eg 100 ec, or in exchange for two techs and 100 ec, the choice is quickly made.

We are prepared to negotiate; please let us know when you are similarly inclined.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Drogue]

Sounds good. Sorry for my absense as of late, exam things

I think, if you agree, I'll send a mail to JDM saying that we haven't changed our position, but because the circumstance changed in our favour we feel it is now a more reasonable offer. Also point out that we would not want to give Roze 100ec, and ask them to come up with a better offer. It would be illogical of us to pay more when we don't have to. We consider a tech to be worth about 100ec, and thus we will either give them 100ec for the tech or one of our own techs. They have much to gain too.

Edit: You made the point well, scrap that. If they don't accept, I could offer any of these though:

We offer:
Biogen
IndAut
25ec for the inconvenience of not being able to trade Biogenetics

You offer:
IndBase
IndEcon

or

We offer:
100ec
IndAut

You offer:
IndBase
IndEco

BTW: Am I correct that we are researching Ind Base now? How long has it to go? Do they have Ind Base? We could put another option, that of:

We offer:
100ec (try 75 first)

You offer:
Ind Eco

IMHO we should point out the logic of the first one, the double trade, and if not then we offer 75ec for Ind Eco, straight out. What do you think?

[Googlie]

[Corellion]

Perhaps you should point out to our friendly neighbourhood pirates that, in fact, throughout these negotiations, it is THEY who have not changed their offer once. In fact, they have not even reiterated their initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. Inform them that the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to them, is not because we dislike them, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. They, as self-proclaimed traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle.

I wish Flubber would get back soon.

[Maniac]

If they haven't sent me any mail by midnight, I'll send them an "ultimatum" (I won't call it that of course) with more or less the two proposals you have proposed, Drogue. If we haven't agreed on a deal in 24 hours (around the time our 48 hours is over), I'll send the turn to them, with our research delayed but not with any offer in the diplobox. Then it's entirely up to them to decide whether the deal goes on or not.

Btw, another slightly related matter. In response to my inquiry regarding IndBase, Hercules told them they could get IndBase by negotiating with or probing the Angels. He then continued:

There is the strong possibility we will come into contact with a faction that have Ind Base.

This sentence, together with the fact that PUT has acquired Doc:Mob this turn, leads me to the hypothesis that Peace might be trading with PUT in exchange for IndBase.

I have no idea what we could do with this possible information though.

Corellion:

Saying that might be not so "diplomatic", but I will gladly do so.

[Drogue]

I think we can explain what Corellion said politely, it is the whole point. Simply say to them, we would rather trade with you, but as you said, you are traders, and must understand that it would be illogical for us refuse a better offer. Simply say if they will match it, we will trade with them instead. Then as a seperate deal ask what they want for Ind Base. Stress the wanting to trade with them.

[Maniac]

Ah, since you're just online, can you give your opinion on this mail I intend to send?

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

Except for BrownBeard's short reply, I see you still haven't responded what you think about my proposal. As the 48-hour time limit I have to play the turn in already expires in 23 hours, I have taken the liberty to write you yet another mail with a more concrete proposal.

Before that I'd like to come back a minute on your comments in the previous mail. You said there was a lack of negotiations in my mail, and that we haven't changed our initial offer at all. However I would like to point out that throughout these negotiations it is YOU who has not changed your offer once. In fact, you have not even reiterated your initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. And the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to you, is not because we dislike you, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. You, as traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle.

In the absence of any comments from you we in the Consciousness have had plenty of time to discuss what is the maximum we are willing to offer in exchange for Industrial Base and Industrial Economics. As a result we have come to two possible deals, depending on what you like more: techs or credits.

Model 1: tech-heavy deal

You offer: IndBase
In return we offer: IndAut ten turns earlier than we both would normally get
You offer: IndEco
In return we offer: Biogen, plus 25 credits if you do not build the HGP the next 25 years and if you don't trade Biogen to another faction unless we agree (or until the HGP is complete)

You could of course switch the arguments I gave for what we offer, eg IndAut <-> IndEco and IndBase <-> Biogen + 25 credits. That doesn't matter.

Model 2: credit-heavy deal

You offer: IndBase
In return we offer: IndAut ten turns earlier than we both would normally get
You offer: IndEco
In return we offer: 60 credits; that's more than half of what you paid to the Angels to get IndEco. So by giving you 60 credits we would buy half the "owning rights" for IndEco. In addition, because we appreciate you are willing to trade with us, in this model we offer an extra 20 credits as a gift.

Summarized, in exchange for IndBase and IndEco we offer IndAut, Biogen and 25 credits, or IndAut and 80 credits.

Again, the details of this deal are certainly open for discussion. For example if you wanted another tech than Biogen.

If we haven't reached a deal yet by the time I need to play the turn, I'll delay our research but of course I won't offer you anything yet in the in-game diplomacy box. The turn will then be in your hands, and with that also the decision whether to go through with the deal or not.

Friendly greetings,

Mani Alpha-3

[Corellion]

Sounds good, but that paragraph I put in was mostly meant for internal discussion. If you're going to send it to them, you might want to make it a bit more "diplomatic", as both you and Drogue have put.

Hopefully they'll accept this.

[Maniac]

Oh ****. Because Drogue didn't answer, I sent the mail. I hope this doesn't swrew a possible deal. However, I suppose Drogue, or anyone else online, could take over negotiations from me, claim that my mail was not the official position of the Consciousness, apologize for my behaviour, and hope for the best.

Edit: I wrote the following mail:

Hello Cuspidore and Captain,

I would like to apologize for the paragraph below I wrote in my previous mail. It was rather undiplomatic of me, certainly after asking you myself to make some less unfairly acid comments. ;-) During these negotiations we sometimes write words we later regret. This is such a moment.

"Before that I'd like to come back a minute on your comments in the previous mail. You said there was a lack of negotiations in my mail, and that we haven't changed our initial offer at all. However I would like to point out that throughout these negotiations it is YOU who has not changed your offer once. In fact, you have not even reiterated your initial offer. It is us who have gone from tech-for-tech (which, we can't stress enough, was one of the terms of our pact) to offering some energy credits, to offering MORE energy credits. And the reason we would be willing to give 100 EC to the Angels, rather than to you, is not because we dislike you, but because the Angels are offering us A BETTER DEAL. You, as traders and merchants, should be well aware of this principle."

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3