PEACE diplomatic exchanges - Page 6

Corellion · September 9, 2003, 09:08

No, no. I mean does he think there's a chance that the Pirates will say we DON'T owe them EthCalc? Even if we didn't owe them it I can't see them saying no.

Drogue · September 9, 2003, 10:10

If we haven't transferred a tech to them since the last trade, then we do owe them it. I'm 99% sure we didn't, and thus we do. However I wanted to check.

Drogue · September 9, 2003, 10:29

Here is a PM from Flubber quoted with my reponses. The quotes form the entire PM (except the greetings and signoff of course):

Quote:

After discussion wih our cuspidore, he informs me that you folks do owe us a tech and that ethical calculus was the one indicated. he did say though that some other new tech ( not the old level ones that we bypassed and could have acquired a dozen times already)would probably make an acceptable alternative.

Yes, that was what I had understood. I think it will be ethical Calc, looking at our research plans, but if soemthign else comes up, we can discuss it

Quote:

The idea of trading doc flex is being discussed favorably in our council and I hope to report back favorably and continue negotiations such that the trade can be made soon. I haven't looked at our turn but I seem to recall that you had at least 3 more turns before discovery .( I can check this with our operations folks)

I think you are correct. I look forward to doing the deal. We already have permission to do it, pending approval of the particular tech you might want.

Quote:

I look forward to making this deal and many more. I also hope to broach with you whether your faction would consider a pact to the end with us. I am personally in favor and will raise the idea with my government to see if they are in favor in principle. Bottom line is that there are a lot of strong and dangerous factions out there

I agree completely. I (or Mani Alpha-3) will put it to the people.

I will study our turn to look at our research plan, and see what we are expecting to get soon.

- Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

Maniac · September 9, 2003, 11:16

IIRC seven turns instead of three to get to DocFlex is more realistic.

If I read correctly, that permapact is just a proposal of Flubber. So we should wait with polling until we know what the common pirates thinks about it.

Drogue · September 9, 2003, 11:29

I agree. I just want tech trades, but we don't need to teel them that. The saferr that feel, the more we can trade, and the more we can militarize

We can agree to a permapact and go back on it, since unless there is some unwritten code, it is just like a Pact, the rest is informal but agreed?

Chaunk · September 9, 2003, 11:43

I don't like that idea. If we agree to a permapact (Which I'm all for btw) then it's a perma pact to the end of the game. If we don't think we want that then we don't agree to the pact, but I'm very much opposed to going back on it. It's just not cricket!

C

Drogue · September 9, 2003, 11:50

Ok. I just think CyCon have the whole pay people of against each other and do what is best for us thing. But I can understand some people's problems. How can we sign a permapact though, since we do not know what the future wll hold?

And not being cricket is a good thing

DeathByTheSword · September 9, 2003, 12:14

well i am sorry but dimplomatic pacts are valid as long as we think they are valid...that is one of the most importent lessons civ and SMAC teached me...not mentioning the board game...rules and agreements are ment to be broken when the time is right...so i would go for a permapact...hack pact everbody...until the pact is no longer needed...besides of thinking it is the best way...i also believe it is very cycon

Maniac · September 9, 2003, 12:32

Personally I'm against a permapact. Not only because of the objections Chaunk made, but simply because I wouldn't want to win this game together with those pirates. For the moment the Hive are the only ones with which I would be willing to sign a permapact.

Drogue · September 9, 2003, 15:10

I'd go for a Hive Pact. Let us just be nice to Kody, HongHu, Jamski, Vev and Voltaire and hope that when the time comes, they will accept the hand of friendship (we would be a formidable team). But for that, we must either get to them before the PUT do (they'd be a good team too) or be winning the tech race. If we want it to be actually a permapact, like Chaunk suggests, then I would be against it. If we feel more like DBTS and want to feel safe, until we want to not be (

) then I am for it.

Corellion · September 9, 2003, 15:35

Although I have no qualms with going back on a pact (even a permapact), there are other factors we need to consider. Going back on a pact will severely undermine our credibility with the other factions. This is a very important facet we need to consider before taking any action. After all, if our other allies no longer trust us, what position are we left in?

As for the Hive, here is some interesting news I received in a message from Voltaire: they have some information on us. Voltaire told me (though I'm not sure if he actually knew this, or if he was making it up) that the Hive knew that there were some problems in our pact with PEACE. Considering neither I nor anybody else (as far as I know) has told them of our pact, this is interesting. He has been telling me for some time now that he knows of our pact, but I've dismissed it as his guessing (his explanation is that Kody has been 'watching the power graph', although he insinuated that Kody's been doing a little more than that). This then lent a little more credibility to his next statement that he expects that they will receive our commlink within the next few turns. Interesting events.

Maniac · September 9, 2003, 16:05

Quote:

He has been telling me for some time now

Has Voltaire been sending you PMs?

Quote:

As for the Hive, here is some interesting news I received in a message from Voltaire: they have some information on us. Voltaire told me (though I'm not sure if he actually knew this, or if he was making it up) that the Hive knew that there were some problems in our pact with PEACE. Considering neither I nor anybody else (as far as I know) has told them of our pact, this is interesting.

I see two possibilities:
1) The Hive has met the Pirates.
2) Someone has broken our game rules.

Quote:

(his explanation is that Kody has been 'watching the power graph', although he insinuated that Kody's been doing a little more than that)

Really? This would envalidate my previous worries about Kody and hacking. And he seems such a nice guy.

Corellion · September 9, 2003, 17:02

No, he hasn't PMed me. I went to school with him during the past three years (along with Roksovokky (although 6 for him), but he seems to have disappeared), and we still keep in contact via MSN. This came up in a conversation of ours (I can't remember how). In any case, he wanted me to tell you all this, so I'm not sure what that means.

Maniac · September 9, 2003, 17:24

Wow I didn't know that. For some reason I assumed Voltaire was European. I thought he had an EU flag once.

Anyway, at least if Voltaire has been telling you of we knowing the pirates only the last three weeks, it is possible Kody might have figured things out by the power graph alone. After all it must look suspicious when the CyCon and Pirates shortly after each other become the most technologically advanced factions. It must also have raised questions seeing the Pirates switch to Wealth only one turn after us. But they can't deduce from that we would have a pact.

Corellion · September 9, 2003, 17:38

He did at one point have a European flag, but no, he's not European. He does not, however, throw things around lightly, although he is certainly not above misleading others into revealing information to him.

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 05:04

A couple of things:
Doesn't this break the noc contact rule?
Either a member of PEACE has told them, or the Hive has been hacking. Or, and I would not like to insinuate this, although it is a possibility, Tassadar still has Hive sympathies. They may know legitimatly that we have met PEACE, and even that we have a Pact. However to know of the problems is more than just guesswork. Therefore either PEACE have let on, or they have cheated. Either way, it is a matter for Googlie to deal with and talk to Kody/Voltaire.

I will PM Voltaire and ask how they know this, and whther it is PEACE cheating (and telling the Hive about us) or the Hive cheating and finding this out covertly.

They could have infiltrated PEACE? Would that tell them all but the problems? Or read Googlie's board?

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 05:16

Have sent this PM to Voltaire:

Quote:

Greetings Comrade Chairman,

It has come to my attention that you are in possession of information regarding our diplomacy that is worrying. May I inquire as to how you came across this? Merely whether by legitimate means or by hacking. While I would like to think the former, some of the information you have stated to Corellion could not, unless I am mistaken, be found through any legitimate means.

Indeed, it has been said that Comrade Kody might have been doing something he shouldn't?

The only 3 ways we could see you could possess this information is if either:
A PEACE member has passed on information about us,
Someone has hacked into the game and found out things or
Tassadar still has Hive sympathies and has passed on information (which I doubt).

The last two are most definatly cheating, the first could be, or could be legitimate.

I thank you for bringing this to our attention. If we could have an assurance that no-one has been cheating, preferably stating how you managed to find out this information (although that could be legitimatly secret), it would ease our concerns greatly.

Yours sincerely
Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

Maniac · September 10, 2003, 06:24

Great PM.

A fourth possibility would be that Voltaire has simply been telling semi-random things to Corellion, and judging from Corellion's reaction if there was any truth in it. But that would be breaking the no commnications before contact rule, so Voltaire would be in fault anyway.

Corellion · September 10, 2003, 07:38

Indeed. I've done my best not to reveal anything, but (truth be told), I am a horrible liar/truth-concealer. Absolutely awful. He probably gleaned from my responses that what he was saying was true (and if not, then he knows now for sure).

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 07:49

However he knows, unless PEACE and the Hive have met, and discussed us (which is legal) then a rule has been broken. In telling us, the Hive have broken a rule, whatever else, however if they are breaking a rule to correct a PEACE activity, such as pre-contact about us, then it may be overlooked.

Someone has broken a rule though. The Hive talking to us like that is a rule-break in itself. This is not a first offence for Voltaire either.

When does Googlie get back?

Phenix · September 10, 2003, 08:24

Perhaps it would be a good idea to state the rules better in the ACDG Faq.

(http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...d=64858#what2?)

The only thing I see in those rules, is: how to play, how long you can keep the save, etc...
the communication rules are not really clear for new members IMHO (or did I miss something??)

This hasn't got anything to with this problem (Voltaire and Corellion being experienced enough

),
but it could prevent future problems.

Chaunk · September 10, 2003, 08:43

It could also be that the hive have met the PUT who've met PEACE who've met us. Which would be legal, although somewhat tortuous.

I think though, it's probably best not to speculate until we know more...

C

Corellion · September 10, 2003, 09:51

BTW, Tassadar is not at fault, as I believe Voltaire first floated the idea well before Tassadar resigned from the Hive.

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 11:12

That is what I thought. Sorry Tassadar, we just had to make sure it wasn't you

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 11:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Phenix
Perhaps it would be a good idea to state the rules better in the ACDG Faq.

(http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...d=64858#what2?)

The only thing I see in those rules, is: how to play, how long you can keep the save, etc...
the communication rules are not really clear for new members IMHO (or did I miss something??)

It would be a good idea, although the rules are explained Game Parameters thread.

As for the PEACE telling them, though it may be legal would be frowned upon. We do not wish PEACE telling sensitive details about us to PUT or any other faction. If they have spilled the beans, we may have to ask them not to in future.

Chaunk · September 10, 2003, 11:25

In case you missed the thread Voltaire posted in the general forum by mistake...

Quote:

CyCon-Pirate Observations

Earlier we made certain postulates regarding the relations between the CyCon and Pirates; based on observations form the early game Comrade Kody concluded that the growth in the powergraphs of the CyCon and Pirate factions could only have taken place if they had met another faction and had traded technology. This was a safe assumption to make given that the Pirates and CyCon were the only two factions experience heavy growth at that particular portion of the game. The postulate went as far as to say that the Pirates and CyCon may have pacted (a natural progression from treaty and trade).

Later our observers noted a decline in the number of communiqués between the CyCon and Pirates on the main forum. This led us to come to the postulate of either a) that this decline in communiqués resulted directly from the overall decline in participation in the ACDG, or b) that the relations between the two possibly pacted factions have declined. Though the latter may have not been as safe of an assumption to make as the former, our experts decided to go with it after analysis of the ideologies of the two factions in question, as well as some basic knowledge of the mentality of the players and teams.

In order to test this theory, as any good social scientists should, I spoke to Corellion and confronted him with this information (in a subtle way), he in turn transmitted this information to his faction. Drogue PMed me earlier stating that he thought that the Hive may have infiltrated his faction via illegal methods because of the information Corellion provided. I’ve explained the situation to Drogue. My plans succeeded, the CyCon have indeed confirmed that the above postulates may indeed be the truth, or if not they are close to the truth. Otherwise Drogue would have not contacted me confronting me about how I may have acquired the information.

This post serves two purposes, first of all we must now plan our future CyCon and Pirate relations based on the above two theories which have been confirmed to be true (or as close to it as we will get for now); and second of all to demonstrate what can be deduced from simple observation. Granted this time we were lucky, our theories proved to be true, next time we may not be so fortunate.

Chairman Voltaire
Report from the Central Continuing Committee Ad-hoc committee on Foreign Faction Observation to the People’s Congress of the Human Hive, Datalinks

C

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 11:29

Have PM back from Voltaire:

Quote:

LOL, I was toying with Corellion to try to get information out of him, Comrade Kody merely made the observation earlier in the game that yourselves and the Pirates may be pacted (or in the least sharing tech) given your growth in the power graphs on one particular turn. He calculated that your faction growth on the power graphs could only have been achieved via tech sharing with other factions, and since yourselves and the Pirates were the only ones that increased in power, the assumption was safe that you had encountered one another. The pact part was merely a postulate.

As for other statements, they are simply form information gathered by Hive observers in the main forums, such as the slightly but noticeable decline in communications between CyCon and Pirates on the main forums. This of course was merely a postulate based on limited information, taken into account the different ideological views of each faction and team respectively.

I must say that I did not believe my attempt would be this successful; congratulations Comrade Drogue, you have confirmed that much of our postulates may indeed be closer to the truth than we imagined.

I will of course inquire with Hive members who provided me with these postulates in order to assure that they indeed did not obtain any illegal information which may have lead them to make such claims if it pleases you.

Though I assure you we have merely made educated guesses based on the information available, our luck that they proved to be true.

Sincerely,
Chairman Voltaire

I believe him, but he has still broken the rules, hence I have sent this PM back:

Quote:

However, in talking to Corellion about it, I believe you have broken the rules regarding no contact in game. Indeed, you should not be able to find things out through talking to us before we have met. Trying to trick Corellion into saying things would breach that, and could affect your own diplomatic actions.

I thank you for your honesty about this, however I am concerned that factions are using methods that would not be possible were we sticking to the no contact before in game.

Good guesses, however I belive in trying to confirm them from Corellion, repeatedly, you have breached the rules.

Yours,
Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

Also you may want to notice the thread started on the main forum. Is it a mistake? Either way, it is the 3rd rule breach Voltaire has made that involve the CyCon. I think Googlie needs to see this, and rule whether or not it needs sanctions. We have lost out twice because Voltaire has acted against the rules, both in confirming via Corellion and myself, and in telling other factions we have met. The fact he did not mean to on the latter does not decrease the damage done to us.

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 11:32

Nicely done Chaunk

How can we play it to be false? Either we have to appear strong with them, or we have to appear unpacted? And the big question, do we tell PEACE what we know?

Maniac · September 10, 2003, 11:59

AFAIK I have never sent more or less "communiqués" or replied more or less to Pirate posts depending on our relations with them. I find it rather hard to believe they could make a sound judgement based on those presumed facts.

Drogue · September 10, 2003, 12:06

Well, I know I was a little coarser to Herc and JDM after the last round, although yes, it could well be that they found out illegally. It is suspicious certainly.