PEACE diplomatic exchanges

[Phenix]

Hmm... I could believe they noticed our tech sharing and derived that we had a pact.

But it seems almost impossible to me that the Hive is watching all "communiqués",
that they noticed the slightest change in them and then directly concluded CyCon-Peace relations had declined!

I see two possibilities here: either the Hive is very, very good at guessing or they're just cheating

[Maniac]

Posted by Drogue:

Well, I know I was a little coarser to Herc and JDM after the last round

Who knows they might have noticed that. As for me, I never had a high opinion of the Pirates in the first place, so my posts didn't become even less friendly I think.
On the other hand, I did make two references in 3D articles about our diplomatic contacts.

Posted by Phenix

I see two possibilities here: either the Hive is very, very good at guessing or they're just cheating

I think the cheating is the most likely possibility. Nevertheless, I still see the Hive, despite acting like complete idiots from time to time, as our most natural ally. So I think we shouldn't ask for any sanctions.

Anyway, I sent this PM. Perhaps we can still gain some advantage out of this. The Hive owe it to us.

Hi Drogue and Voltaire,

How about if we start being extra rude against each other in the CyCon-Peace thread? Other factions will think we hate each other' guts, which could prove an advantage in diplomacy.
That way we can get at least some benefit out of the mess coming from the Hive's cheating.

Greetings,

Maniac

[Corellion]

I know it's not against the word of the rules, but gleaning information from the power graphs seems to violate the spirit of the game. Sure, it's unavoidable to see the Who's who and the relative powers of everybody, but calculating information based on that (as Voltaire indicates Comrade Kody did) seems unbecoming a democracy game player. Futhermore, though I do think that Voltaire only accidentally posted on the main forum, this confirms that he has used our position as friends to try and gain an advantage in-game, certainly a breach of the spirit. In any case, grievous harm has come to our faction as a result of these events, as the information is out. Regardless of anything else, the thread title on the main forum says enough, even if it gives no specifics... people will assume from the title, and that is enough. The damage done to our faction goes beyond any in-game mechanics, and thus no sanctions can properly address the issue. Asking for sanctions, therefore, seems useless. I do think, however, that Googlie, or perhaps Tassadar, should do some serious investigating into some of the Hive's, especially Kody's, practices in this game. Furthermore, I know that most Hive turn-planning is done via MSN Messenger, thus making any illicit activities they engage in particularly easy to conceal. This is a serious issue in this game, and must be dealt with somehow.

[Drogue]

Like the idea Maniac

I agree with Corellion on the spirit, but I think we can minimise the damage. People will think/know that we met PEACE and have relations with them. But we know that about PEACE and PUT already. They may know already. Anyways, it is hardly that important information. Most factions will have met PEACE by now IMHO, since they can explore so quickly.

I do not think a disaster has happened. And I think the thread was an accident. Why would they want to post it? They have the knowledge, why give it to others?

I think from what I posted, and from 3D, they *could* have told that that happened. It may be cheating, but it may well not be too. Let us not lose a good ally over it.

[Drogue]

Actually, I am less sure about a Hive alliance now. They just seem so out for themselves, and sneaky, like PEACE. Mayeb the Drones would be better allies. I hate saying that, as they seem like nice people, except they have cheated on multiple occasions. Voiltaire still believes they weren't cheating, as his latest PM evidenced:

Perhaps, and it would be my indiscretion in such a case. I did not expect Corellion to tell me anything (I know him well enough that he would not). I simply shared the postulates we had made (I presented them as fact) and attempted to guess his reaction. He did more than I expected by presenting this information to you, and with your reply you confirmed it. An unexpectedly pleasant outcome for us.

There mere fact that he shared the information showed that there was something in there which may indeed have been true, with your response this almost guarantees it.

I admit fully this was a trick, though I do not believe it infringed any game rules because 1) I was discussion your relations with another faction, nor our own, 2) it was hypothetical, and 3) I was merely making observations to Corellion with no expectation of him confirming or denying it. I admit that the third one is indeed a bit sketchy when it comes to the game rules, for if he had indeed shared information with me it would have been a violation of game rules. Granted that’s for Googlie to decide.

Also, a friendly suggestion, try no to dance to the tune of your enemies. I did not expect the CyCon to be so compliant in my little game.

Sincerely,
Chairman Voltaire

[Corellion]

I had no intention of us sending him any message either, and thus was a little surprised when Drogue sent something. I had intended for us to discuss it and report to GooglieGod (or perhaps Tassadar). But, regardless, the information is out, and we now have to do something about it.

[Phenix]

(quote)
"Also, a friendly suggestion, try no to dance to the tune of your enemies. I did not expect the CyCon to be so compliant in my little game."
(quote)


So Voltaire states that it's actually our own fault that they got the information?
I don't like this at all... those games of him on the borderline of cheating,
IMHO Voltaire is manipulating way too much...

[Maniac]

those games of him on the borderline of cheating

Of course they are. Voltaire may deny it by giving three worthless arguments which are totally besides the point, which is that Voltaire communicated before contact. Period.

[Drogue]

Exactly. However I think we should let it go. Not too much harm hs come, especially if we keep up relations with the Hive. That is far more important than the manipulation. I replied to Voltaire that we did not see them as enemies, and should not have been contacted at all by them. He has promised to refrain from such manipulation, as I have pointed out how it breaks the rules. He has also agreed to Maniac's plan I have confirmed things with him and now I will refrainf rom PMing him, as we have righted somewhat the wrong done, and now we sould wait for in game contact IMHO.

The problem is that Flubber has PMed me to ask for a copy of what was said, as they were involved:

Drogue

Could you please forward me a copy of what was posted about our relations? I think its only fair that we as an affected party also see what is being said. Pm is fine or email me at sharris4141@yahoo.com

Flubber

He also asked why we told them:

IT appears you gave away the contact with us.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...517#post2118517


Its no big deal but it could give outside folks the hint they need to deduce our relations. Anyone pacted or infiltrating any faction gets the skinny on the relations with everyone

I explained the situation to him as such:

Actually no. What happened was that Kody looked at the power graph, and noted that we both shot up one turn. Voltaire, who knows Corellion personally, then questioned Corellion about it, and judged his reactions. Corellion was worried at how accurate their information was, as every guess was spot on (though he tried not to let on about this obviously). He posted in our forum that they knew this and were they cheating, so I confronted Voltaire and asked him how they found this out, as we believed that either they were cheating or had been told by someone. Their explanation was that they guessed a Pact from the power graph as they knew we were trading, but had noticed that we were a little brisk with each other lately on the forum and so guessed there were problems there.

Basically, they know (or at leats suspect, and from our reaction to their 'cheating' think they have been shown to be correct) that we are Pacted, and that there have been difficulties. IMHO they have breached the rules, in trying to trick Corellion into giving them a reaction, before we have met in game. That should not be discussing the game. However the thread we believe was a mistake.

I am sorry for any hardship, however we believe that Voltaires actions required us to confront him about how they had found out the information, even if it confirmed their guesses.

- Prime Function Drogue Beta-8

I am sorry for the contact earlier with Voltaire. I was merely trying to find if they had cheated. Yes I may have confirmed it, and I am sorry for that, but I felt I needed to confront Voltaire. Besides, if we become friends with them, it won't matter. And if we don't, it's not a massive peace of info, as they pretty much knew anyway

[Phenix]

Good explication for Peace, I hope they atleast believe us

[Drogue]

Likewise. Flubber is usually a decent bloke though.

[Corellion]

Indeed... this certainly can't help our relations though.

[Maniac]

Honored Maniac

I have reviewed your message and hope to provide a detailed trade offer to you later today ( Real LIfe commitments means it will be about 8 hours from this message). Essentially we need to agree on how we get Doc flex in your hands , so you can switch to something else.

Ambassador Flubber

Chief Sweettalker o' the PEACE

[Maniac]

I received a double PM from Flubber. As I predicted, they're trying to get an uneven deal again. I'm glad I asked to save cash for trading with the AI factions...

( Long message --in 2 parts)

Greetings to the Honored Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function


AS a friend, we see that you are researching doc flex and it is our wish to provide that tech to you for fair compensation. That tech is considered our national treasure and it is with much reluctance that we trade it outside the confidential circle of the the Council of Captains . But the time has come to share this knowledge with our friends.



So the simple question is what can you give us in return for doc flex? As it stands, you "owe" us a tech from previous deals and I believe we would both want to clear up that outstanding obligation as part of this trade round .

I don't think you have any current tech of interest so the obvious compensation for Doc Flex is a tech in the future . That is acceptable in principle but our people feel a little miffed that you chose to research doc flex last time when you knew that a tech was owed to us. Our people felt t it was an unspoken part of the deal that you would research a tech to return to us as soon as possible. However , if we did not nail down that point, its not something to upset our relations over, just something to learn from.

The offer I want to put out there is this:


COMPLETING THE PRIOR DEAL

1. WE send you Doc flex prior to your discovery of it so you can switch to another tech for free. . .

2. You switch to ethical calculus immediately ( if possible) or some TRADE TECH ( if its not) and send said tech to us at the date we request.

***( Note that a "TRADE TECH " is a non-level one tech that we do not have have and which we do not indicate as unacceptable, at the time we send doc flex, as we will acquire it soon . (For example: Doc INI )

( end part 1)

(part 2-- read part 1 first)

COMPENSATION FOR DOC FLEX

OK we would love to trade you doc flex straight up for a tech we want right now. IF you don't have one now, we will accept some TRADE TECH. But the reality is you probably can't get a new tech to us in less than 10 years so our proposal is a TRADE TECH plus 40 ec. This reflects the fact that a tech now is worth more than a tech later and that we are essentially trading for an unknown tech to be given at some unknown future time . Since we are trading for an unknown, we would want the right to reject the first tech you offer and choose among the next two "TRADE TECHS" you acquire. The chosen tech would be passed to us on request.


Guarantees of a fast return

Your choice to research doc flex when a tech was owed us was good negotiating on your part. WE didn't think to bind you to consequences if the tech was not returned in a speedy manner. WE do wish to get a tech back in as soon a time as possible on the doc flex deal and propose two conditions.


1. Interest-- Essentially you will owe us a tech and we would see interest as being applicable if it is not returned as soon as possible . MY operations folks tell me your research is similar to ours so at leat 10 years would be appropriate . WE propose interest of 2 ec per year from years 10-15, increasing to 5 ec per year from years 16-20 and 25 ec per year from years 21 onward ( years counted from the year we send you doc flex). The early interest is minor additional compensation for the delay while the late year interest is designed to make it important to you to complete the deal within an achievable time frame.

2. Mortgage-- we retain a security interest in doc flex until it is paid for . . You may use it to build boats etc but you may not trade it on to anyone else until a " TRADE TECH" is offered to us.


Neither interest or the mortgage apply once you have offered a "TRADE TECH" to us, whether we accept that particular tech or not. In ADDITION, if you make an effort to research a a "TRADE TECH" , neither the mortgage or interest would apply from the time you complete that tech ( and could offer it to us), even if we already acquired it elsewhere in the meantime. You would still owe us a tech but your good faith effort would be enough to end the conditions. Realistically , we would be looking at making a new deal to give you the tech you were researching so we could leapfrog research again.

CONCLUSION

Making a deal is in both our interests. This is a straight deal of doc flex for some future tech unknown tech and a little cash. The cash is there for us because there are scenarios where we might not get a tech back for years and years. We have also tried to be fair in that a good faith effort to return a new tech to us will mean the " Guarantees" section of this offer will be pretty much irrelevant .

We are still trying to forge strong ties but we acknowledge that each side must feel they are getting a benefit from the deal . We do remain open to alternate offers so if you have something to offer, let us know . Throw something in the pot ! I can say that the idea of some unknown tech, years down the road, with no other consideration or conditions would not be viewed as a fair deal by Peace.

Thats the offer. I look forward to your response and hope that this round of trade talks will lead to strengthened relations between our peoples. The benefits of trade are clear and we regard you as our closest friends and trading partners. We look forward to forging even closer ties .

Ambassador Flubber

Chief Sweetalker o' the PEACE

If I don't get any comments or suggestions in the next few hours, I plan to send this PM to the Pirates:

Greetings most honoured Ambassador Flubber,

I haven't received many comments yet from the Collective, but I'll already give you the opinion of the External Affairs Functionality.

We don't have any problem with the first part of your communiqué. This means we would be willing to switch our research to Ethical Calculus after you have given us Doctrine: Flexibility, and give that tech to you to finish the Industrial Automation deal.

We do have some questions about the second part of your communiqué.

In the first paragraph you say you want a tech plus another 40 credits in return for DocFlex. The reason you offer is because you are trading for a tech which you will only get several years down the road.

However in the paragraph below that you present yet another series of conditions and extra burdens for us, again with as reason because you will only get a tech in return several years down the road.

So just to be clear I have to ask: Do you want a tech and some interests or mortgage in return for DocFlex, or do you want a tech, interest or mortgage and 40 credits?

As for the proposal itself, we believe it would be acceptable for us not to trade DocFlex to any other faction we meet until we repay you our debts. We do pose serious questions about your requests for credits though. The small advantage we would gain by trading with you does not justify the amounts of credits you are asking.

To make our case more clear, we would like to remind you that we will research DocFlex ourselves in a mere five turns. Also we would like to bring to your attention again the fact that both the Believers and Angels possess knowledge of Doctrine : Flexibility. Because I, Mani Alpha-3, expected the traditional difficulties in our negotiations with you, PEACE, I asked the Internal Affairs Function to build up an energy credit reserve. That reserve is steadily building up. In a few turns we will have around 100 to 150 credits. If you cannot or will not offer us a sufficiently beneficial deal around the principle one-tech-for-one-tech, we will use that cash reserve to buy DocFlex from the faction that gives us a better deal.

We can buy DocFlex from three different factions. Please keep in mind that we are doing you a favour by negotiating with you first, and offering you the ability to tell us freely what techs you would prefer in exchange for DocFlex.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

[Nubclear]

In reading this thread, I would like to announce I have begun an investigation into the Hives posession of knowledge.

Don't tell Voltaire or anyone else in the Hive. If you do, I will be unable to investigate. All results of my investigation will be sent to Drogue via PM, and he/she (sorry, I forgot ) may then PM the results to Maniac if he/she wishes.

If you wish to protest this for whatever reason, you may file a complaint with the GM, Googlie.

Also, I do understand your suspicions of me and while I don't think they were justified, they were certainly understood and no offense was taken

Also, with regards to the Pirates.... I'm glad you two are such close allies

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Also, with regards to the Pirates.... I'm glad you two are such close allies

indeed!

[Nubclear]

A translation from Politicalese to English.

Greetings most honoured Ambassador Flubber,

I hope you die soon,

I haven't received many comments yet from the Collective, but I'll already give you the opinion of the External Affairs Functionality.

Nobody has posted much yet, but everyone hates you so I know what their gonna say.

We don't have any problem with the first part of your communiqué. This means we would be willing to switch our research to Ethical Calculus after you have given us Doctrine: Flexibility, and give that tech to you to finish the Industrial Automation deal.

regarding the first part of your communique, you've been a very good doggie. Heres a bone.

We do have some questions about the second part of your communiqué.

Were smart enough to know when were being had.

In the first paragraph you say you want a tech plus another 40 credits in return for DocFlex. The reason you offer is because you are trading for a tech which you will only get several years down the road.

With regards to the first paragraph: No.

However in the paragraph below that you present yet another series of conditions and extra burdens for us, again with as reason because you will only get a tech in return several years down the road.

With regards to the paragraph below the first: HELL No.

So just to be clear I have to ask: Do you want a tech and some interests or mortgage in return for DocFlex, or do you want a tech, interest or mortgage and 40 credits?

You are testing my patience. Which is it?!

As for the proposal itself, we believe it would be acceptable for us not to trade DocFlex to any other faction we meet until we repay you our debts. We do pose serious questions about your requests for credits though. The small advantage we would gain by trading with you does not justify the amounts of credits you are asking.

We're gonna trade with other factions, but we won't tell you about it.
Anyway, were not the fools you are. This is a terrible deal which we will not accept.

To make our case more clear, we would like to remind you that we will research DocFlex ourselves in a mere five turns. Also we would like to bring to your attention again the fact that both the Believers and Angels possess knowledge of Doctrine : Flexibility. Because I, Mani Alpha-3, expected the traditional difficulties in our negotiations with you, PEACE, I asked the Internal Affairs Function to build up an energy credit reserve. That reserve is steadily building up. In a few turns we will have around 100 to 150 credits. If you cannot or will not offer us a sufficiently beneficial deal around the principle one-tech-for-one-tech, we will use that cash reserve to buy DocFlex from the faction that gives us a better deal.

Were gonna get the tech within a few turns anyway, and we can always go to the DataAngels or the Believers for the SAME tech.
I knew you would try to take us for fools, so I got some money. If you continue to pretend we are your vassals, then we'll simply pack up our stuff and play elsewhere. I'm sure the Hive/Drones would love to have an ally to fight certain factions in the game.

We can buy DocFlex from three different factions. Please keep in mind that we are doing you a favour by negotiating with you first, and offering you the ability to tell us freely what techs you would prefer in exchange for DocFlex.

We already have other sources, and we can easily kill you off. Either give us a better deal or die.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

Bastards,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

Note that my letter is not copywritten, so you may use it at any time
I love watching diplomatic relations sour. It makes for interesting arguments

[Maniac]

LOL!

[Corellion]

What an incredibly accurate translation. I'm sure you could go through all our other communiques and find the exact same thing applies.

[Maniac]

Below is the edited and slightly elaborated PM I sent to PEACE.

***

Greetings most honoured Ambassador Flubber, and Captain Hercules also online at this moment,

Your communiqué has been reviewed by the Collective, and as head of the External Affairs Functionality I have been asked to provide you our reaction.

The first part of your communiqué was received positively. We would be more than happy to switch our research to Ethical Calculus after you have given us Doctrine: Flexibility, and give that tech to you to finish the Industrial Automation deal.

Some questions were raised about the second part of your communiqué.

In the first paragraph you say you want a tech plus another 40 credits in return for DocFlex. The reason you offer is because you are trading for a tech which you will only get several years down the road.

However in the paragraph below that you present yet another series of conditions and burdens for us, again with as reason because you will only get a tech in return several years down the road.

This apparent double payment you ask for the delay you suffer confuses the analysts we have ordered to investigate your message. So just to be clear we have to ask: Do you want a tech and some interests or mortgage in return for DocFlex, or do you want a tech, interest or mortgage and 40 credits?

As for the proposal itself, we consider it reasonable for us not to trade DocFlex to any other faction we meet until we repay you our debts. We do pose serious questions about your requests for credits. The small advantage we would gain by trading with you does not justify the amount of credits you are asking.

To make our case more clear, we would like to remind you that we will research DocFlex ourselves in a mere five turns. Also we would like to bring to your attention again the fact that both the Believers and Angels possess knowledge of Doctrine : Flexibility. A few years ago, on the External Affairs Functionality's request the Internal Affairs Functionality started to build up an energy credit reserve. In a few turns we will have around 100 to 150 credits. If you cannot or will not offer us a sufficiently beneficial deal around the principle one-tech-for-one-tech, we will use that cash reserve to buy DocFlex from a faction that gives us a better deal.

The External Affairs Functionality thought it had made its position about this deal clear in the past, but let us repeat ourselves:

If you would be willing to provide us data of Doctrine : Flexibility, we are willing to repay you in two possible ways:

1) A lump sum of energy credits. As we can buy DocFlex elsewhere in the near future, we were hoping on a competitive price. Something around 80 credits perhaps?

2) A technology we provide you in the near future, or immediately, depending on your desires. Please note that your argument that you are trading for an unknown tech at some unknown future time is false. We have repeatedly asked you what specific tech you would prefer in return. We of course hope you would ask something of equal value to DocFlex, which is a level 2 tech. Furthermore we have techs available we could offer you in return right away. It is your choice to not accept those techs and wait for us to research another tech instead. Please also note that under this optional deal, we would not pay you one microcredit extra.

We can buy DocFlex from three different factions. Please keep in mind that we are doing you a favour by negotiating with you first, and offering you the ability to tell us freely what techs you would prefer in exchange for DocFlex.

Greetings,

Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

[Corellion]

Looks good. Although they'll probably respond with the standard "the fact that you'd be willing to trade with the AI rather than you pact brothers saddens us..." etc. etc. etc.

[Maniac]

Well then I could respond with "it saddens us you force us to trade with the AI."

Anyway, the tone of my PM is not really friendly, but how else can you tell them their proposal is plain ridiculous?

[Nubclear]

Hmm....

AMERICANESE (TNGR):

You ****tard, that deal blows!!!

AMERICANESE (ADLT):

You ****tard, that deal sucks!!!

EUROPEANESE:

Um.....no.

RUSSIAN:

At present, your deal is laughable. Please come back to us when you have a deal worthy of our attention.

CHINESE:

Yoo deew noo goo!

TENG VIET:

Youwi deali naowi good! Youwi suuk!

AUSTRALIAN:

You sheep-****ers, that deal plain sucks!

CANADIAN:

Um....uh.....We love you and all but....uh....well....your deal....kinda.....is....not....good?

GODESE:

By decree of the CyConian Imperial Council, the deal presented by the mortals called "PEACE" is rejected by a unanimous vote.

GODLISH:

How dare you, mortal?! I will crush you for your insolence!

I hope I've been of some help

[Corellion]

Um....uh.....We love you and all but....uh....well....your deal....kinda.....is....not....good?

[Maniac]

I received two other PMs from Flubber. Let me post them:

Re: DocFlex negotiations

Honored Mani Alpha-3
External Affairs Function

I have received your message and will seek instructions from my faction.

I do have a couple of points of explanation and my personal reaction:

1. We are not trying to make a double request for credits. The 40 ec was premised on the idea that you would have to research a new level 2 tech and it would take you around 10-12 years to get that so it was a fee for the use of doc flex until you pay for it . If you can get a tech to us quicker, I would be pleased to recommend dropping this fee. There are scenarios where it could be many more years for us to get a tech back in this deal . Fundamentally even if one agrees that a tech is worth a tech, I can't accept that a tech now is worth the same as a tech 10 years from now. Time matters . . ..

2. The mortgage and the "interest" were totally a result of you folks researching doc flex before completing your trade obligations. It is taking you many many years to meet your obligation and you don't seem to have placed ANY priority at all on completing the prior deal or indicating when it maight be completed. We went out of our way to make it so that these " penalty" elements don't apply if you get a tech to us in a reasonable time. Interest is a pittance until year 15-- your rejection of the interest concept causes me great worry as to when you would intend to return a tech.

3. If you have a level 2 tech to trade or will soon get one , then offer it and we would be pleased to do a one-for one tech deal. Make a concrete offer for a level 2 tech that you know you will have. You want us to request a specific Level 2 tech?? I think we would be delighted with any of them if you could get it to us in a reasonable time.

4. yes you could possibly get doc flex elsewhere ( AIs can be touchy) but we can certainly get all the level 1 techs elsewhere quite easily. We both have other options but we have been coming to you first every time in the interests of the pact .


YOUR OFFER

You are offering us EITHER

a) 80 ec -- I will pass this one on as maybe people will like this-- IT is immediate and concrete.

OR

b) a tech--

immediately-- I think we have everything you have that we want-- IF you can acquire something we don't see, offer it !!!

-- in the future-- this is what we want if there is no immediate tech suitable and available--BUt if that tech will not come for a number of years, is that a fair "one-for one trade"??

while I accept the idea of tech for tech-- I can't accept that a tech now is equal to a tech provided 10 years from now. It just don't seem fair that if we accept your form of proposed tech deal, we give a tech and get nothing back immediately. Put another way, here is no cost to you or benefit to us at the time of the trade.

Ambassador Flubber

The second PM, sent an hour later, is called "personal diplomatic note", but it doesn't contain much personal remarks. It just seems another way of repeating the same arguments, so I'll post it here too:

Personal diplomatic note

This message is an off the record individual response and not part of our official forum discussion-- Just like real life I am thinking that some back channel frank discussion can help us out here


I was very disappointed with your reaction to our offer. I thought 40 ec was a very reasonable price to get a tech many years before you pay us back. . .. and it could be a lot of years if we managed to acquire your next research target.

I thought you guys would want to try to "make friends "after deliberately NOT heading for a tech that would pay us back on the prior deal . I had been arguing in favor of a " Pact-for -life" where we team up to the end but the tone and finality of your message does not help-- In my message I had tried to explain our rationale and made a very lengthy message to try to set a friendly tone. There was stuff in there to protect us but we tried to make it so none of the penalty stuff applied if you even made an attempt to get a tech back to us.


I want to make a deal because if this falls apart, I fear what it will mean to our long-term relations if we can't agree on a simple tech trade. I believe that we could win this thing if we acted together. I also thought you would want to deal with us to lead to even closer relations and hopefully more trade. As an aside, we have been offered far more than a single tech for doc flex by others so your response does not fare well in comparison.

I am also suprised by the pedantic requirement of tech for tech since you guys requested and GOT an extra 20 ec from me in the original trade we did when we were researching plan nets and got soc psych back to you on the next turn after flipping. The cycon rationale was that you would not have an immediate use for it.

I have tried to look at this thing from your point of view and I can't blame you for wanting doc flex at the cheapest possible price. We have to try to be competitive. But getting anything from the AI is a tricky proposition so are you really guaranteed to get it from them??

If you try to look at it from our point of view you would see that:

the immediate tech offer --nothing really interesting there unless you have something I don't recall

Future tech-- just seems fundamentally unfair-- I just can't accept this since frankly it seems like we are getting screwed if there is no additional compensation

Energy credits-- a possibility-- at least we get something now we care about


SO our challenge is to find a deal that looks competitive enough on your side and doesn't feel like we are getting shafted on our end. I'll feel out the ec alone option but I know our faction is MOST interested in tech. However, if you can't offer a decent tech within a few years, there HAS to be something more for us. If you can't offer anything I think the tech option is completely dead and only the tech for cash option is feasible.



The official factional response will probably come after I review the forum after work tomorrow-- I hope we can come up with a counter-offer but if you confirm that there will "not be a microcredit more" on the tech for tech trade, I won't waste my time on that and will look at the energy only option.

I hope this message helps in us reaching a deal if one is possible

Flub

Both his PMs can be responded by using arguments I already used in my previous PM. I'll get to it in a few hours. In the meanwhile if someone has suggestions what to write in my communiqués, please give them.
I'll also start a poll with the question: Should we be willing to give PEACE, besides a tech, also energy credits to get DocFlex?

Edit: Oh yes, from his "personal" PM I get the impression they won't be willing to agree with a tech-for-tech deal. So is it ok if I focus on a lump sum of energy credits?

[Corellion]

You know, after we get Doc:Flex, the Cycon have a special ability that will provide us with an alternate way to get the techs we want from them.

[Phenix]

Argh, i hate the diplomatic bs that always seems to come up in those trades with PEACE!!

they do have a point tho... What they're offering isn't really fair, but I can understand their side:
we still owe them a tech and we're already asking for another one.

If you examine it objectively, the time they have to wait is not so bad. But it has a psychologic effect: they'll be 2 techs behind us in trade for some years, with no extra benefit (i.e. the EC's they're asking )

At this moment, the best option seems buying/trading for DocFlex with the AI. This will (as Flubber states) seriously harm our long-term relations with Peace though...

I'd be willing to give them something like 20-30 EC with interest, or 40 without interest. If they don't want to compromise, IMHO go for the AI trade

[Maniac]

Hi Flubber,

I have read your two PMs. You seem willing to drop the roleplaying aspect and the politicalese for a while. I will too.

After I read your previous PM, I started a poll among the CyCon asking whether we should offer you a tech and credits in return for DocFlex. Based on previous discussion about this matter and based on the preliminary poll results I think it is safe to say we will not agree to pay "even one microcredit more" in a tech-for-tech deal. So I would recommend to focus on the tech-for-energy option in the PEACE discussions.

In response to your arguments saying we should pay you more credits: your arguments would be valid when we were dealing with a situation where you are the only faction from whom we could get DocFlex. But here we can research DocFlex ourselves in five turns, and we can buy it from two other factions as well in a few turns. In other words, the demand is low, the supply is high, thus the price drops. Market reality. You should not focus on getting a "fair" deal, but rather on getting a deal at all. For example, even though the true value of DocFlex is more than eg 80 credits, for you getting 80 credits is still better than getting no credits at all because we buy elsewhere.

I'll give some more detailed responses to certain quotes of you:

The mortgage and the "interest" were totally a result of you folks researching doc flex before completing your trade obligations.

Sorry. At the end of the IndAut negotiations you didn't seem to place much priority on getting that future tech soon. You seemed perfectly happy to leave that issue rather vague. Anyway, since we're almost sure we'll be able to buy DocFlex from someone, we will hopefully be able to switch to EthCal and you'll still get your future tech as soon as you would have got it if we researched EthCal right away.

I want to make a deal because if this falls apart, I fear what it will mean to our long-term relations if we can't agree on a simple tech trade.

This is indeed a reason for concern. But what do you suggest I do about it? You can hardly expect us to pay more than we reasonably should taking our other options in account.

I had been arguing in favor of a " Pact-for -life" where we team up to the end

Among the Consciousness we only shortly discussed that proposal. It seemed that was only a personal tentative proposal. We decided to wait giving a reaction until we knew whether your sentiment was shared by the PEACE majority.

I am also suprised by the pedantic requirement of tech for tech since you guys requested and GOT an extra 20 ec from me in the original trade we did when we were researching plan nets and got soc psych back to you on the next turn after flipping. The cycon rationale was that you would not have an immediate use for it.

The difference here is we can get DocFlex elsewhere.


Anyway, I certainly hope we can reach a deal, but you have to understand I won't be able to offer you 100 credits or more seeing we have other factions most likely willing to sell at that price.

Friendly greetings,

Maniac

[Nubclear]

PEACE diplomats are sooo bad Seriously, the worst faction I've seen.

Great response Maniac

[Corellion]

I must say, though, we've accepted their deals in the past, and always regretted it. Who's worse, the bad negotiator, or those who accept his deals?