Sun Microsystems slapped, judge tosses out Java order for MS

[Asher]

Sun would be better of spending money on R&D and making competent products rather than *****ing about MS.

It seems they didn't learn from Netscape's mistakes.

http://news.com.com/2100-1007_3-1021452.html?tag=fd_top

Court curbs Microsoft Java distribution

By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
June 26, 2003, 1:01 PM PT

update A federal appeals court dealt a legal blow to Sun Microsystems on Thursday, tossing out most of a preliminary injunction requiring Microsoft to carry its rival's version of an interpreter for the Java programming language.
But the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Va., upheld a requirement that Microsoft cease distributing certain copies of its own Java virtual machine, saying that Microsoft "exceeded the scope" of a January 2001 license agreement with Sun. The three-judge panel said the agreement only gives Microsoft the right to include its own Java VM in Windows, not to offer it separately through computer makers or through Windows Update, which Microsoft stopped doing in February.


The panel devoted the bulk of its 28-page opinion to assailing other portions of an injunction imposed on Microsoft by a district court earlier this year. In explaining the need for the injunction, U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz concluded there was a "serious risk" that the market could tip away from Java and toward Microsoft's .Net.

"We conclude that the district court's findings are insufficient to support its conclusion that immediate irreparable harm will be sustained if the mandatory preliminary injunction is not entered, and accordingly, that injunction must be vacated," the panel said Thursday.

Both companies said they were "pleased" with the decision.


"We are extremely pleased with the appellate court's ruling today affirming the copyright infringement injunction," Lee Patch, Sun's vice president for legal affairs, said in a statement. "This decision confirms that Microsoft violated our prior settlement agreement, and that it did so in a way that continued to fragment the Java platform on PCs."

But Patch said he was "disappointed" that the appeals court rejected the must-carry requirement.

The case now returns to Motz for further proceedings and an eventual trial, unless the companies agree to a settlement.

In December, Motz concluded that Sun stood a good chance of winning its antitrust lawsuit against Microsoft and told both sides to craft a preliminary injunction, which he approved on Jan. 21.

In his 11-page order, Motz gave Sun what it requested when filing the lawsuit: an injunction ordering Microsoft immediately to stop distributing incompatible versions of Sun's Java interpreter and to begin shipping authorized versions with Windows and Internet Explorer in four months.

Microsoft immediately appealed Motz's decision to the 4th Circuit, calling it "extreme and unprecedented" and accusing Sun of violating a California law that prohibits unfair competition. On Feb. 4, a three-judge panel of the appeals court put Motz's injunction on hold until the panel could hear oral arguments--which took place on April 3--and reach its own decision.

Sun's case builds on a previous legal assault on its rival, which began in October 1997 and alleged that Microsoft violated its license agreement by distributing incompatible versions of Java and deceptively promoting those versions as compatible. The two companies settled in Jannuary 2001, with Microsoft agreeing to pay Sun $20 million and inking a contract that governs how Microsoft could distribute Java.

The Java language lets programs run without alterations on a variety of computers. Because a Java program can run, for instance, on a mainframe from IBM, a Unix server from Sun and a Windows PC from Dell Computer, it represents a possible threat to Microsoft's dominant Windows OS.

In an internal e-mail message dated September 1996, Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates wrote that the Java platform "scares the hell out of me," because it's "still very unclear to me what our OS will offer to Java client applications code that will make them unique enough to preserve our market position."

Sun should give up while they're only several billion dollars out.

[Lord Merciless]

Hurrah Microsoft!!!

[Kuciwalker]

ditto

whatever they say, microsoft rocks

[DinoDoc]

UR in 10...9...8...

[Cruddy]

You know Asher, that answers something that has been puzzling me. Why I couldn't get Win98 VM from Windows Update.

Not that I'm honestly that bothered about how much cash flows around the US civil action system, but it does actually make the whole Java thing more understandable. And now I know why I can't download the thing.

Of course, this isn't the end of the story... and I for one am not going to predict end point, because I honestly don't know the arguments on either side.

[Asher]

It went something like this:

MS starts distributing the MS VM, which is substantially faster than Sun's VM but incompatible with other VMs.
Minor *****fights for a few years.

More recently, Sun thought it'd be a great idea to take MS to court over it again. MS thought "to hell with it", and just announced they now wouldn't ship Java at all.

Sun was taken by surprise, that's not what they expected...

So they took MS to court, again, this time saying the government should force MS to ship Java with its OSes. Of course, this itself isn't exactly lawful, which is why the appeals courts have tossed it out.

The article is a bit funny, where it says both sides claimed victory -- Sun didn't get anything out of this. MS isn't shipping any version of Java right now, that's even worse than MS shipping the fast, incompatible version.

And they're still sinking huge sums of money into the dispute, and making it worse for themselves.

[Nubclear]

Glorious!

I hate Suns java. It's so unstable and slow.

Microsoft is MUCH better.

[Sava]

this will pave the way for more useful MS products!

[Kuciwalker]

Sava, in case you hadn't noticed, it wasn't microsoft being an "evil, oppressive corporation" here.

[Whaleboy]

I wonder what the EULA would be like for that?

[Gatekeeper]

So what does this add up to? If I go to certain Web sites that have used this software, and I don't have it on my browser, the Web sites in question won't be compatible?

[Whaleboy]

I hope not, anyone know how this will effect the linux j2re??

[Ted Striker]

Sun is really going down the tubes.

Instead of, "we're Sun Microsystems, we make the best computers in the world," they have become, "wahhh Microsoft what can we do to beat them?"

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by elijah
I hope not, anyone know how this will effect the linux j2re??

Maybe it won't suck as much?

(dirty memory, stuck processes, resource hogging, etc)

[Sava]

Sava, in case you hadn't noticed, it wasn't microsoft being an "evil, oppressive corporation" here.

in case you forgot, I'm a troll...

[Urban Ranger]

Just in case any of you haven't noticed, MS isn't in the clear yet. The Appellate Court merely have stated that Sun hadn't provide enough evidence for its broader assertion. However, MS was caught redhanded distributing an incompatible version of JVM:

Sun's case builds on a previous legal assault on its rival, which began in October 1997 and alleged that Microsoft violated its license agreement by distributing incompatible versions of Java and deceptively promoting those versions as compatible.

It is entirely possible for Sun to provide additional evidence, or for Motz to limit his previous ruling. It's too bad that MS isn't above the law, innit?

[St Leo]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000
Glorious!

I hate Suns java. It's so unstable and slow.

Microsoft is MUCH better.

Are you insane? Microsoft's is a perverted bastardization of Java 1.1. The current version is the very different 1.4, but you can't write web applets with it because MS is still stuck in the dark ages.

MS killed Java on purpose. They deserve the worst.

[Sava]

I program in Java... I like MS's better.

[Asher]

MS killed Java and replaced it with a cleaner programming language, a far better VM design, and a far faster VM.

Sun killed Java through litigation and pissing MS off. You've no idea how much of a grudge McNeally holds...

One thing you don't do is piss MS off -- when MS makes a far faster VM, you work with them rather than sue them.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sava
I program in Java... I like MS's better.

What good is it if your program cannot run on other platforms?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What good is it if your program cannot run on other platforms?

I thought we explained this to you already?

The .NET CLR has a BSD, OS X, Linux, and Windows virtual machine that works.

So you write in any of the 22+ .NET languages, run it on any of those OSes you want. Like Java, only far faster.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
Sun would be better of spending money on R&D and making competent products rather than *****ing about MS.

It seems they didn't learn from Netscape's mistakes.

Ah yes, only you can applaud MS's lawbreaking, anti-business behaviour.

[Sava]

If people want to use anything I write, tell them to get with the program!

Personally, I don't really like MS, but Windows is fine for me.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
MS killed Java and replaced it with a cleaner programming language, a far better VM design, and a far faster VM.

That's rubbish. MS did not have the right to alter the language. They can invent another language and call it C#.

Originally posted by Asher
Sun killed Java through litigation and pissing MS off. You've no idea how much of a grudge McNeally holds...

One thing you don't do is piss MS off -- when MS makes a far faster VM, you work with them rather than sue them.

Ah, but you are completely wrong. HP and Dell will include Sun's JVM with their computers. Who cares if Windows attempted more underhanded tricks?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Asher
I thought we explained this to you already?

The .NET CLR has a BSD, OS X, Linux, and Windows virtual machine that works.

So you write in any of the 22+ .NET languages, run it on any of those OSes you want. Like Java, only far faster.

How is this relevant to MS's illegal distribution of its own JVM?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
That's rubbish. MS did not have the right to alter the language. They can invent another language and call it C#.

They called it J++, if you'll recall.

Ah, but you are completely wrong. HP and Dell will include Sun's JVM with their computers. Who cares if Windows attempted more underhanded tricks?

Underhanded tricks?

You make it sound like Microsoft is obligated to ship competitor's products with their OS under thread of litigation.

That's not illegal (why do you think the court threw out that decision, genius ), nor is it anti-business.

[Kuciwalker]

It's not illegal. Unless you are thinking copyright violation because of the name.

Yes, they have the right to alter the language! Why not? If they can turn out a BETTER PRODUCT, well, kudos to them!

(EDIT: this was in response to UR )

(EDIT: btw, I actually use Sun Java though, because I have the compiler for it, I was taught it in school, and I like the online javadocs)

[Asher]

Originally posted by skywalker
It's not illegal. Unless you are thinking copyright violation because of the name.

Yes, they have the right to alter the language! Why not? If they can turn out a BETTER PRODUCT (which, btw, is FREE!), well, kudos to them!

What Urban Ranger is being silly about, is Java is Sun's Intellectual Property and theirs alone.

You see, unlike MS, Sun is hogging Java and demanding complete control over it. MS submitted C# to the ISO and European standards committee (its name escapes me at the moment), and Sun refuses to do so.

Sun is killing Java through their own stupidity. MS is just accelerating it by offering better alternatives.

The only thing illegal here was Sun's demand MS include Java.

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, that's just STUPID.

[Q Classic]

i used to like sun.