Au402 Dar5: 1000ad-1500ad - Page 2

nbarclay · July 2, 2003, 11:37

By the way, one thing that makes the trick I just described trickier in this game is that with probaly twenty or more surviving civs, techs don't devalue as quickly. That's an especially big deal on Emperor where AIs expect to get more from you than they give you in trades.

jshelr · July 2, 2003, 17:10

We have a problem. I'll be interested if others agree.

This huge game with all civs in has the inverse of the earlier tech problem. I'm not sure inverse whoring is going to catch on big time as a term

but here is an example.

After finishing US and changing to democracy, old Abe noted that there were several gpt trades about to expire and he decided to sell electricity around the wheel to replace that income. Electricity was a full 4-1/2 techs behind our leading position.

Abe received, conservatively but approximately,

1500 gpt
2000 gold net of gold paid during the trades
2 luxuries
nationalism
espionage

This was maybe 6 times the research cost of electricity. So, Abe blew 5,000 gold on a big hurry production splurge to celebrate.

The problem, IMO, is that the AI prices tech too dearly for this game setting. The human player can therefore undercut the AI reservation price and sell the tech so many times that the human civ makes a net profit.

To be clear, this is not an example showing astute gameplay. It simply shows the AI is not set up right for a 20+ civ world.

Dominae · July 2, 2003, 17:43

I was wondering how long it would take someone to point this out as jshelr just did (it's something I guessed when I first heard the idea for this scenario).

Trading with the AI is exploitable. Most trades with the AI feel like exploits when I play, actually. The more AIs there are to trade with, the more the human player gains an absurd advantage in trading. As soon as the human player reaches tech parity, it's basically "game over" (assuming, of course, that the human is not at war and horribly outmatched in the field).

The most difficult games are those where the human has trading disadvantages (i.e. Total War, Isolation, etc.). In this game, unfortunately, most of the AIs have trading disadvantages as well because most of them are isolated for quite a while. Therefore the patient player should never fear a loss here if he or she just takes the time to trade into a superior position. I would not be surprised if many players win this game without ever expanding beyond the two home islands (the Gems one and the Wines one).

Dominae

vmxa1 · July 2, 2003, 17:45

I can only say that I am seeing that effect. I am able to keep large amounts of money, all of the lux by trading a tech when the deals expire.
I am trying to keep all alive to make the game get to as large of a size as it can to see the impact. So I am not taking any occupied lands and gifting stuff to the also rans.
I have seen civs that have zero cash pony up 80 gpt or more for a tech. Stronger ones will pay even more for it.
This has made them poorer and piled up tens of thousands in my pocket. Everyone is happy with markets and 8 lux at 10%.
Kind of like real life, every lives for today and not worry about tomorrow. I mean sending all you money and lux to one civ can not be helpful to your civ.

Catt · July 2, 2003, 22:01

Trading can be almost exploitative, especially in this game.

A while back I started experimenting with largely peaceful games in an effort to better understand how to secure a comfortable win without offensive war. Getting a feel for trading ensures that all but the less desireable starts or circumstances means you have a shot at a win. The power of, and underprioritization by the AI of, Theory of Evolution and the structure of the Industrial Age tech paths means that if you can stay close enough to the leading AIs to get ToE, you can often seal the game. I still don't care much for Deity games as my strategies tend to channel into one pattern regardless of other factors, but even at Deity, ToE is often the turning point in the game.

In this AU, the tech costs are so high in comparison to standard map fare (a combination of the map size, the 80% water setting, and the number of civs) that a tech lead is way too powerful. I've noticed from the various DARs that a bunch of players are running 100% spending (science and entertainment) beginning in the early middle ages or even late ancient age, and still enjoying large surpluses per turn. How often do your "regular" games feature that situation?

Quote:

I would not be surprised if many players win this game without ever expanding beyond the two home islands (the Gems one and the Wines one).

I think you're right on the nose with this. I played the huge map game (AU 208?) entirely peacefully, not even taking out the Babylonians, and a superior trading position was, all in all, pretty easy to secure and keep once you got the hang of trading down. Partly out of that peaceful experience, I resolved not to do the same thing in this game

Catt

Catt · July 3, 2003, 01:08

Quote:

Originally posted by jshelr
Catt: "When Bismark entered the Industrial Age, the Queen was pertubed to discover that somehow the German scientists had learned the secrets of Medicine in the blink of an eye without any effort at all."

This happened in my game as well, cutting a substantial tech lead down to nearly nothing in one turn as three science civs all went through the turn together and got different techs. Need to keep that risk in mind when trading for gold per turn with science civs that are right behind.

I've enjoyed the good fortune of having the science civs all get the same tech - Medicine. I was thinking of asking whether or not the new implementation of the truly random free tech for scientific civs in the latest patch was coded in such as way as to ensure that only the first scientific civ gets a random tech and all others get the same free tech -- I've not actually watched it closely enough to be sure in previous games or in the middle ages in this game

-- but I gather that multiple different free techs among scientific civs are the norm?

Catt

vmxa1 · July 3, 2003, 01:40

Catt AU207 was the big planet. AU208 was total war for ever.

BTW does anyone know what the norm is for stealing tech (no spies)? Is it a sure thing using safety option?
I asked as I used it three times and got the tech each time. I sort of expected it was a long shot, but I had so much money. I normally never bother with stealing, I do plant spies, but don't use them.
I wanted to get all the stuff I had skipped before the ToE finished and they would not trade, so I stoled it.
Well I did it once to find out were the nukes were before they could use them in one game.
I am not intending to plant spies as with 20+ civs that is a lot of work and cash. Also I do not want to make waves. I am thinking of a UN vote as the way to end the game. A first for me with more than 3 civs left.
That is if it is turned on in this game.

PeaSoup · July 3, 2003, 08:32

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Catt AU207 was the big planet. AU208 was total war for ever.

BTW does anyone know what the norm is for stealing tech (no spies)? Is it a sure thing using safety option?

my diplomats have failed to steal a tech with the safely option. spending the extra cash for safely means even if you fail to steal something, your spies won't get caught (at least mine have never been caught on safely

vmxa1 · July 3, 2003, 12:39

That is what I thought, so it was just sheer luck.

vmxa1 · July 3, 2003, 17:09

Just looking at the system meter and it seems that Civ run at 50-52% of my CPU all the time and the storage is 280-288M. With all civs at war with someone and a few with more than one civ. The turn ran 9 minutes, but never used more than half the cpu and a quarter of the memory. In fact commit was 379M of 24xxM.
So it looks like anthing around 1.7 GH with 512MB should be able to run fine.

nbarclay · July 5, 2003, 03:25

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Just looking at the system meter and it seems that Civ run at 50-52% of my CPU all the time and the storage is 280-288M. With all civs at war with someone and a few with more than one civ. The turn ran 9 minutes, but never used more than half the cpu and a quarter of the memory. In fact commit was 379M of 24xxM.
So it looks like anthing around 1.7 GH with 512MB should be able to run fine.

I wonder whether the 50-52% CPU utilization figure is due to hyperthreading. On my old single-CPU system, Civ 3 was happy to eat up every available CPU cycle just sitting idle, and I had no reason to think it wouldn't do the same on a one million gigahertz system. The 50%-52% range matches what I see on my dual-CPU system, with one CPU maxed out and the other all but idle at any given time (although Windows shows both CPUs at 50% or just over because the system switches the load back and forth between them - which is probably good for minimizing the risk of overheating). If Windows interprets "one thread using all available power but no other threads contending for CPU power" as "one processor 100% loaded and the other idle" on a system with hyperthreading, that could account for a claimed 50%-52% processor utilization even with one thread using all the resources it can get a hold of. (If that's what's happening, Microsoft has a pretty serious bug in its processor utilization reporting algorithm where hyperthreading is concerned.)

Speaking of hyperthreading, if you can find out how to turn it off, I would suggest that you do so and see whether that affects Civ 3's habit of crashing. When I first put my new system together, I tried using two different speeds of Athlon. Other programs seemed to work fine, but PtW consistently locked up during my first turn. It's not inconceivable that whatever caused that might have a similar but more random effect on a system with hyperthreading. (Just a wild guess, but it seems like something worth trying.)

Nathan

vmxa1 · July 5, 2003, 12:09

I sort of thought that could be the deal, not sure. Normally all the games seem to drive cpu to 98-100 under XP. Now with the fake 2 cpu of hyperthread I suspected it was not reporting properly.
I will have to check out on the web, but I doubt I can disable it. I wish I had went with a 3GH instead to avoid any issues.

nbarclay · July 5, 2003, 12:36

From what I've read, disabling hyperthreading is definitely possible. I'm not sure how easy it is, though. You might check www.tomshardware.com; I know they've done reviews where they tested with and without hyperthreading enabled, and they may mention how to do switch it. (Since I don't have a hyperthreaded CPU, I've never paid too much attention to exactly how it's done.)

vmxa1 · July 5, 2003, 20:16

Thanks I take a look.

Catt · July 8, 2003, 13:53

When we last visited Elizabeth's empire, it was 1435 AD, China had been subdued and the invasion of America commenced. The English armies were bracing for an American counterattack. Most English forces were garrisoned in Buffalo, with only a single musket and two cavalry units holding St. Louis. Not surprisingly, the Americans went after St. Louis. A stack of 25 units, though largely outdated, could almost certainly take St. Louis, even if reinforced with additional units from Buffalo -- however, the Queen only had about 15 cavalry in America, in addition to 4 musketmen. Assuming perfect combat success for the English cavalry, the Americans would still have at least 10 units for the counterattack, with more no doubt making their way across the roaded but unrailed American countryside. Elizabeth could reposition troops each turn, bouncing American forces from target to target without an attack ever coming and all the while shipping reinfircements to America, but that didn't strike Elizabeth as within Queensbury Rules. Faced with the possible loss of the only English invasion force, and the almost certain loss of St. Louis, the Queen elected to make a 20-turn peace before resuming the hostilities.

Catt · July 8, 2003, 14:01

About the same time that Elizabeth and Abraham Lincoln were negotiating a peace, the Ottomans and Mogols also settled upon peace -- the Ottomans retained their foothold on the continent and ice island did not see the Ottoman palace relocation that had been expected -- Elizabeth hadn't yet reinforced the southern isle with cavalry, but intended to rid the lands of Ottomans should the entire Ottoman empire be relegated to the ice isle. Elizabeth could secure only the American map for peace -- the Americans were penniless following the invasion.

In 1455 AD Germany declared war on France, and much to the Queen's dismay managed to secure a source of coal from the French during the first turn of the war. Elizabeth intened to trade coal to Bismark should war erupt again on his continent, but was denied the opportunity.

In 1465 AD, with the Queen's scientists only 3 turns from the discovery of Replaceable Parts, Temujin demanded contact with the Greeks -- not caring for the MOngolian habit of making capricious demands, Elizabeth declined to trade contact and the Mongols declared war. How silly -- demanding contact with a civ still in the ancient age and declaring war on the technological superpower when refused.

Catt · July 8, 2003, 14:18

After a few turns of warfare, Elizabeth decided to bring in others to fight the Mongol hordes. It was not out of fear from invasion, rather it was out of a desire to (1) make a tech trade with some degree of comfort that it wouldn't be upset by a hostile alliance, and (2) keep some of the remaining tech-proficient civs in Monarchies.

In 1480 AD the Queen traded Electricty to Germany for 814 gpt, 60 gold, and an alliance against the Mongols. She also traded Electricity to Persia for Medicine,
48 gpt, a world map, and 50 gold. No other civ was either tecnologically advanced enough or rich enough to make further trades worthwhile. In time, Elizabeth would come to recognize that the trade with Germany was a mistake.

Below is an enlarged minimap at 1500 AD -- it's very hard to see, but looking closely you might see that the Ottomans retain a small corner (SW) in their homeland. I've included the info box for 1500 AD, as well as shots of the two largest English colonies -- ice isle and the former China. Much English gold has been used to rush improvements in the former China and the new American cities. In the meantime, Elizabeth began preparations for the second American campaign.

Mountain Sage · July 11, 2003, 04:14

1000AD + The Fifth Age

1020AD: the New Age 5 started with Education, closely followed by Banking.
1100AD: Leo’s is build (we even might use it!).
1120AD: with Banking in the pocket, we go for Economics in 6 turns.
1170AD: the Ottomans are at war with the Mongols. For once, we hope they just crush them.
1190AD: traded Gunpowder with Persia for Astronomy. Copernicus in 16 turns.
1120AD: we started Smith (no pre-build) and research Music Theory (we have THE BIG PLAN in mind).
1290AD: THE BIG PLAN: Persia, Germany and Babylon were getting too cocky. Therefore we declared war on Babylon. The Germans and Egypt were more than willing to join us for Chivalry. At least Germany would leave France alone for a while.
Then we also declared war to Persia along with the Ottomans, the Zulus, the Iroquois and the Celts in exchange for Music Theory. In the middle of a war, they could very well build Bach’s for all we cared. 1 winner and 4 losers (and 1’000 shield lost).
1335: THE GREAT BETRAYAL. We made peace with Babylon and Persia. Why? We got 400+ gold and started research in 4 turn. Time to pull ahead.
1370AD: Smith’s is done.
1390AD: we switched to Democracy. We have now a 3-tech lead.
1510AD: we entered a New Age with a 4-tech lead and… END OF THE GAME

Why? Well, for two reasons: first of all, we were too far ahead for anyone else to catch on us. We were researching at 4 turns/techs and had a cash of 17’000+ gold (average +350/turn). No other civ had more than 20 gold.
But the main problem was that 5 minutes lag between turns. In summer, I play much less Civ (D&D is fine in the garden) and I just don’t have the time to play such a long game, especially when I know I will win it.
The above is certainly the biggest reproach I have to make to Firaxis, or whatever handles now Civ3. What’s the point of being able to play on huge map with 24 civs if it takes you a whole month?

BTW, this is certainly the worst AAR/DAR you’ve ever seen, and the worst I ever wrote. Sorry about that.
This time, MS is really

But cheer up! Next Friday I’m in for a big surprise (if I have the time!).

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 14:11

I don't blame you MS. BTW I had about 70K at one point and was in 5th or 6th place. After that no deals cold be keep, so I stopped making them.

jshelr · July 11, 2003, 14:55

"I've not actually watched it closely enough to be sure in previous games or in the middle ages in this game -- but I gather that multiple different free techs among scientific civs are the norm?"

In answer to this question, I believe that Nationalism and Medicine appeared immediately and I attributed that to the science civs getting those two techs. I think I was done with steam power and no civ got that.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:37

OK, I finished up to 1500AD last weekend, but due to 'poly being down and RL, haven;t gotten to the DAR till now.
________________________________________

1000AD:

I'm determined to get all of the Medieval Era GWs; I won't, I'll miss two, but of my choosing. I've got a pretty good tech lead too, and am draining all the decent AI civs steadily... as early as this turn I was able to do a tech trade with Germany for 300g + 91gpt.

I'm building many many Berzerks.

My first target will be Carthage, who have the spice island to the west.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:38

1000-1140AD:

I miss Leonardo (big deal, I'm rich) and Sun Tzu (big deal, I'm MIL and rich). I snag all other Medieval GWs.

1140AD:

Bergen completes Copernicus... so this will be as good a super-science city as I can create.

This also means I can sell astronomy, which is good as it drains the AI civs like crazy, and bad in that my computer can't friggin' handle it.

1160AD:

I find China to the north... trade them polytheism (

), and dear God, the incense!!

Attack plans changed from Carthage.

I'm doing the most exploring; btw, NOBODY but NOBODY gets my WM.

1265AD:

The attack on China is nearly poised.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:40

1280AD:

I simultaneously attack the three southernmost Chinese cities:
Southmost: 7 Berzerks, 2 Knights, 6 Muskets
NE and NW: 9 Berzerks, 6 Muskets

HOLY AXEHEADS, BATMAN!!! Have you f*cking seen Berzerks in action, in large numbers, on Spears??!! Hell, I don't know how the defensive bonuses work, but they are sorta meaningless at 6a versus 2d. Jesus wept... I remember when Arrian, I think, and I both started playing Japan around the same time, and we fell in love with Samurai... Berzerks, man, Berzerks are da bomb!! And as GL generators? Fuggedabowdit.

Oh yeah, and this kicked off my GA.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:41

1290AD:

I meet Greece, Russia, Korea, and the Aztecs. Not meaningful threats... good lesser-developed civs to sell things to.

1295AD:

A coupla turns later... not too much of a response, and fairly easily handled. This would later lead me into a false sense of security in re AI civ performance.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:43

1300AD:

One or two of the leading AI civs research Gunpowder... I sell it off massively. Protection help for the weaklings.

1310AD:

I break through the 30 city mark, and am thus able to build my FP, and find Japan (Mmm, furs... DOH!!).

I decide to hand-build the FP in the city at the northern tip of the original island, and to change my attack plans to the following order:
a) Finish China
b) Japan to the north
c) Egypt / Arabia to the east (a new 2nd Fleet, primarily from Iron Island)
d) Carthage to the west (the China / Japan 1st Fleet)
e) The ice isle to the south (2nd Fleet)

1325AD:

Ahhh, let the games begin... Mongols declare on the Ottomans (having already nailed the Romans long ago), and Persia goes after the Iroqouis.

1330AD:

China? BUH-BYE!! Massing the fleet for Japan.

#1 in Approval, Population, GNP, Manufacturing, Annual Income, and Productivity.

1360AD:

I trade contact with Russia, Korea, and the Aztecs to the world... I am still the only one to have met Japan. At 1000g + 73 gpt, and 0.8.2.

1375AD:

I meet Spain. While the rest of the world is basically in love with me, Izzie is a bee-yatch, no matter what I do. I figure why let her spread lies and bad attitude about me, so she stays isolated (for a loooong time).

1390AD:

The attack on Japan is poised. I'm going for the five southern cities EXCEPT the southernmost, which will be extremely isolated and ready for attack by lagging forces the next turn.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:46

1395AD:

FLASH FLASH FLASH

Urgent Telegram

From: Admiral Erik Axeblade
To: Lord High King Theseus Longbeard

Sir,
4 out of 5 objectives taken. Stop. Strong resistance and unrest remaining. Stop. Possible loss of offensive force. Stop. Instructions?

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:47

1405AD:

Well, let's get the heck outta Dodge, shall we?

I had no idea of what was waiting for me... thank god I got there before Sammies. I abandoned the northern cities, and regrouped to the south. But I still had a bit of a challenge coming my way.

(And yes, that's my first Army towards the bottom... no mixing units for these bad boys until Marines, but a 2 or 3 Berzerk Army is a friggin' sight to behold!!

)

And, yes, Berzerks as stack-whittlers are just d*mn fine... it took a few turns, but the Japanese threat was, shall we say, severely diminished.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:49

Backtracking to 1400AD:

While the Japan offensive was being pressed, btw, I made some pretty good trades elsewhere. At this point, my rep was crystal clear... but the surprise in Japan did mess me up, as I had broken a per turn deal with them in the initial attack, and they were met by other AI civs before I could finish them off.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:51

1430AD:

The Mongols have decimated the Ottomans, and Germany has smacked France around pretty bad too (with Babs slipping in some new opportunistic towns).

1485AD:

Japan? BUH-BYE!!! (albeit a hard and close war... took everything I had to get it done, which meant delaying the attack on Carthage)

I made a stupid mistake, though, which you'll see in the 1500AD screenshots... I immediately started trading furs away, but then, to get better CP, I abandoned a couple of the northern Japanese cities, thus breaking my own trade deals.

Theseus · July 20, 2003, 20:53

1500AD:

Man, I looooove this game (wait till you see where I'm leaving off), but I just can't play any further on my computer. I think Catt said he read halfway through Harry Potter 5 while on wait time?

I read the first four books!!! (OK, I'll admit to some Central Park sunny afternoons) I don;t even really know how long the turns have been taking... I read or did something else for "a while" (half an hour?), and then would do the two parts of a turn (building then moving) whenever, and have just kept Civ3 up and running for maybe two weeks.

Anyway, 1500AD, whew!

OK, first the big news, then my final actions: the Mongols, a truly badass KAI, have declared war on me over something stupid... I'll come back to that!

In terms of overall status, I control the original island, Iron Isle to the east, China to the north, and Japan further north. My FP is at the northern tip of the original isle, and I used a GL to build a Palace at Kagoshima, the 4th city from the bottom of Japan. Corruption is not a big problem.

I have an insane number of excess luxuries. I have a solid tech lead, which on this last turn I've used for both trade and alliance reasons to drag half the world into the Industrial Age. As elsewhere stated, I only researched one first-level Industrial tech (Steam Power, of course), then Industrialization. I was able to trade for Medicine with one of the newly advanced SCI civs, and then trade that around too (instead of SP).

Here's an overall screenshot; in northern Japan, you can just see the ruins 9 of New Copenhagen and 77 of New Bergen.