Do these people never learn?! Frist backs Ban on Gay Marriage.

[Sava]

hey I don't write the rules. I just go by what those latter day saints say when they come to my door

Well if you are going to be a Christian, I would suggest following either the Catholic, Orthodox, or Anglican churches. Everyone else has fabricated their own brand of Christianity and twisted it to suit their agendas.

[Dis]

naw

christians have too bad an image.

I'd rather stick to my own particular brand of relgion I invented myself.

it involves computer games and porn watching on sundays.

[Sava]

it involves computer games and porn watching on sundays.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Dissident
all you have to do is have faith in jesus christ as your saviour and you are set for life- and afterlife.

You need to read the Book of James. "Even the demons in hell have that sort of faith."

Faith is supposed to transform you, make you a good person. So if you pray on Sunday then **** over thine neighbor on Monday you don't really have faith.

I got some bad news for all of you so-called conservative Christians. If you aren't politically left wing, you don't have faith. Sorry.

MLK was a Christian. Dubya is not.

[Sava]

MLK was a Christian. Dubya is not.

[Dis]

Originally posted by The Templar


You need to read the Book of James. "Even the demons in hell have that sort of faith."

Faith is supposed to transform you, make you a good person. So if you pray on Sunday then **** over thine neighbor on Monday you don't really have faith.

I got some bad news for all of you so-called conservative Christians. If you aren't politically left wing, you don't have faith. Sorry.

MLK was a Christian. Dubya is not.

such audacity. To say some christian right winger does not have faith.

Who died and made you god

[Q Classic]

more shameless pandering...

my, how american politics is so revolting...

[Sava]

my, how american politics is so revolting...

Don't worry... sooner or later we'll revolt and install a real Democracy...

[Q Classic]

Don't worry... sooner or later we'll revolt and install a real Democracy...

yeah, when hell freezes over. america is lost, and it's something we should all weep for.

[Q Classic]

wait...

"...marriage is ... a union between, what is traditionally in our Western values has been defined, as between a white man and a woman"

does he realize that it's been defined that way in Eastern values as well?

[Asher]

That was a modified version.

[Sava]

yeah, when hell freezes over

nah... this tinderbox just needs the right spark... believe me, there are enough poor people, unemployed, and pissed off youth... if things keep getting worse, the sh1t will eventually hit the fan.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Templar
I got some bad news for all of you so-called conservative Christians. If you aren't politically left wing, you don't have faith. Sorry.

You've been listening to too much Phelps. You're starting to sound like people of that ilk.

[Sava]

You're starting to sound like people of that ilk.

Nah, he's just pointing out the hypocrisy.

[DinoDoc]

Was I refering to you in my post, Sava?

[The Templar]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You've been listening to too much Phelps. You're starting to sound like people of that ilk.

It's called irony - another thing conservatives don't understand.

Dissident, words don't mean alot to me. I've read the Bible, I read what Jesus said. If one has faith in Jesus, then it seems to me that one should endevour to do the sorts of things Jesus said to do.

Now how does the modern right wing agenda measure up to the teachings of Jesus?

Tax cuts? Jesus said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". In other words, pay your taxes and shut up. (Our money you might note has our Caesars on them.)

Social services cuts? What ever happened to "if a man asks for your coat, give him your shirt too." Pay your taxes, shut the **** up, and vote for leaders who will direct those taxes to the neediest. That's what Jesus would do.

Gay bashing? Show me one place where Jesus says **** about gays. And not Paul, Jesus. Show me one place where Jesus gives his (its?) blessing to traditional gender norms. Again, not Paul - Jesus.

Getting rich? "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." So we should redistribute wealth equally. This would help the poor live well, and help the rich get into heaven. And heaven and Jesus are better than money right?

Adultery? Lets he who is without sin cast that stone. But I guess Henry Hyde, Newt, and DeLay didn't read that part when they did the impeachment thing. But Newt's a good Christian right? Because leaving your wife with cancer for a younger woman is just the sort of thing Jesus would do, right?

You see, unlike most conservatives I bothered to read the Bible and understand it - instead of just banging the damn thing. Do I have a lock on the truth. Nope - but the text supports my understanding.

Jesus on the mount called for helping your fellow man, and being part of the community. He did not call for tax cuts, being greedy, or oppressing gays and women. I look at political conservatives and the so-called religious right and I see not a trace of Jesus's teachings. Are you, DinoDoc, sayign Dubya is a better Christian than MLK? That Billy Graham is a better Christian than Mother Theresa?

But hey DinoDoc, I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong. Show us Jesus quotes that backs a Republican position.

[Boris Godunov]

I just want to point out what a ****ing hypocrite Frist is:

The text of the ammendment includes:

"Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution nor the constitution of any state under state or federal law shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups."

And Frist says:

"Generally, I think matters such as sodomy should be addressed by the state legislatures," Frist said. "That's where those decisions — with the local norms, the local mores — are being able to have their input in reflected."

In other words, he's upset that states don't have self-determination in terms of sodomy laws, but whole-heartedly supports a Constitional ammendment that tells states what to do.

[Q Classic]

never mind, i found out that it's not real...

[Al B. Sure!]

what is this comparing gays to Blacks and hispanics? I guarentee you there's twice as many Blacks and hispanics against gay marriage as there are whites against gay marriage.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Templar
But hey DinoDoc, I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong.

This type if thing has been done to death If you want, give me 5 minutes and I can have the samething argueing that Jesus would be a die-hard commie.

[Drake Tungsten]

In other words, he's upset that states don't have self-determination in terms of sodomy laws, but whole-heartedly supports a Constitional ammendment that tells states what to do.

A Constitutional Amendment has to be approved by 3/4 of the state legislatures, so it is hardly an example of the federal government telling the states what to do. A Supreme Court decision, OTOH...

[Al B. Sure!]

Sava:

believe me, there are enough poor people, unemployed, and pissed off youth...

great to know that they're just about all closer to me politically than to you...

[Al B. Sure!]

Boris:

take Santarum for example. he was opposed to the supreme court making any such decision without popular involvement. he wanted to leave it up to the states...

and even a constitutional amendment involves popular support both on the floor of Congress and at state legislatures.

Santorum and Frist know that gay marriage will only be allowed in the whole country if the supreme court makes this decision... and i think they want to strike out gay marriage while the majority of americans are still opposed to it (which may not be the case in 30 years)


thanks

[Dis]

Originally posted by The Templar


It's called irony - another thing conservatives don't understand.

Dissident, words don't mean alot to me. I've read the Bible, I read what Jesus said. If one has faith in Jesus, then it seems to me that one should endevour to do the sorts of things Jesus said to do.

Now how does the modern right wing agenda measure up to the teachings of Jesus?

Tax cuts? Jesus said "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". In other words, pay your taxes and shut up. (Our money you might note has our Caesars on them.)

Social services cuts? What ever happened to "if a man asks for your coat, give him your shirt too." Pay your taxes, shut the **** up, and vote for leaders who will direct those taxes to the neediest. That's what Jesus would do.

Gay bashing? Show me one place where Jesus says **** about gays. And not Paul, Jesus. Show me one place where Jesus gives his (its?) blessing to traditional gender norms. Again, not Paul - Jesus.

Getting rich? "It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven." So we should redistribute wealth equally. This would help the poor live well, and help the rich get into heaven. And heaven and Jesus are better than money right?

Adultery? Lets he who is without sin cast that stone. But I guess Henry Hyde, Newt, and DeLay didn't read that part when they did the impeachment thing. But Newt's a good Christian right? Because leaving your wife with cancer for a younger woman is just the sort of thing Jesus would do, right?

You see, unlike most conservatives I bothered to read the Bible and understand it - instead of just banging the damn thing. Do I have a lock on the truth. Nope - but the text supports my understanding.

Jesus on the mount called for helping your fellow man, and being part of the community. He did not call for tax cuts, being greedy, or oppressing gays and women. I look at political conservatives and the so-called religious right and I see not a trace of Jesus's teachings. Are you, DinoDoc, sayign Dubya is a better Christian than MLK? That Billy Graham is a better Christian than Mother Theresa?

But hey DinoDoc, I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong. Show us Jesus quotes that backs a Republican position.

I never have seen such a fanatical liberal. You are basically saying the goverment has the right to take as much money as they want, and we can't complain about it and be christians at the same time.

Ever heard of a thing called charities. Many conservative probably contribute to them. And they are much, much more efficient than a crappy goverment program.

You really need to work a goverment job and figure out how much waste there really is. I was in a poor branch of the military, and I saw the waste. That money isn't helping poor people, it is being used to buy cushy office furniture.

I am certain the bible doesn't say anything about lazy fat assed paper pushers getting to use our money to buy leather chairs for their offices. Yes even in the navy, if we had any extra money, we used it to buy as much nice things for our offices as possible.

[Sava]

Diss, then we should bring back Democracy... plain and simple.

[Dis]

deomcracy ehh, that's crazy enough to work. I'm for it. Representatives aren't bad, if we could only get rid of the lobbyists. Shouldn't the lobbyists be the entire american population?

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why should they be held to a higher standerd than the judges?

**shrug** I'm not about to get into a debate over activist judges vs. activist lawmakers. It seems that, depending on one's viewpoint, they're saints or Satan incarnate. Me? I take it case-by-case and this is a clear instance where Bill Frist is being a pandering politician, not a statesman.

The more I think about, maybe the Libertarians do have a point when it comes to individual rights. But, honestly, that's putting a helluva lot of faith that individuals will always do the right thing. And, as the human condition can easily attest to, that's not always the case a significant part of the time.

Gatekeeper

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Dissident


I never have seen such a fanatical liberal. You are basically saying the goverment has the right to take as much money as they want, and we can't complain about it and be christians at the same time.

Nope. I'm saying Jesus taught that we should use our resources to help others. Not that we should seek to hold onto money. "Render unto Caesar". If you have a complaint that Jesus wasn't serious about your money, take it up with him.

I'm not fanatical at all. I'm simply pointing out what Jesus actually had to say in the Bible. Jesus doesn't talk about "welfare queens" or tax cuts or God helps those who help themselves. What's wrong? Did I touch a nerve? Could it be that religious conservatives have the message completely backwards? I hate to break it to you, but Jesus didn't think being rich was worth it. In fact, he saw it as an impediment. The thing I find funniest is that conservatives want to cut social spending, they take the attitude of "Am I my brother's keeper." But Cain said that ...

The funny thing is, whenever conservatives reach for the Bible to support one of their positions, they invariably reach for the old testament or Paul's Epistles. They never quote the Gospels (except perhaps John 3:16 - but that's a whole other argument).

Ever heard of a thing called charities. Many conservative probably contribute to them. And they are much, much more efficient than a crappy goverment program.

Numbers?

You really need to work a goverment job and figure out how much waste there really is.

I had a government job once. I also deal with the City of New York on a daily basis on my current job. I fail to see the much talked about government inefficiency. This is the stuff of myth. Private or public sector, efficiency all depends on the people on the job.

And DinoDoc, that was a cop out answer.

[David Floyd]

Templar, if you had any real knowledge of the Bible you would know that Jesus didn't take political stands because he was not on earth to do so. It wasn't time to set up the kingdom of God, but rather, Jesus' mission was to save the people from their sins.

He wasn't interested in the politics of the day - he said to "render under Caesar..." simply to a)show a good example to others and b)avoid trouble that would have made his mission more difficult, not because he had any love for taxes and the like.

If you like, though, we can look up passages relating to what God says about both stealing and laziness/slothfulness.

[The Templar]

Originally posted by David Floyd
He wasn't interested in the politics of the day - he said to "render under Caesar..." simply to a)show a good example to others and b)avoid trouble that would have made his mission more difficult, not because he had any love for taxes and the like.

Not really, telling the Jews to pay taxes to the Romans was quite a radical thing to say at the time. But sure, Jesus was more about spiritual health over material wealth. Of course, that in itself is a political move. It still doesn't support one thing on the right wing political agenda.

And BTW, who is condoning either sloth or stealing? Tax isn't stealing and most people on public assistance aren't lazy.

Unless you mean to say something stupidly libertarian like "tax is theft". Of course tax can't be theft since tax is collected by the government, the property regime is created by the government, and tax is therefore outside of the property regime.

So the question stands - where does Jesus support one plank of the right wing platform? (Hint: he doesn't)