Ways too keep up with the comp in research if you remain peacefull

Uber Warrior · June 29, 2003, 20:48

Ok I tried a building game and basiclly found I got raped on tech even when I had the sci bar on 90% the ENTIRE game. Oh well post away

Theseus · June 29, 2003, 21:00

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=57468

vmxa1 · June 29, 2003, 22:52

Well I for one could use a few clues. What level are we talking about? What civ are you using on what map settings? Is this a continuous deal, where you have tried this a few times and get the same results with many maps? What I mean is if this is a bad start and you only play it once or good starting locations, etc.
Basically keeping up in tech is a function of how you build your empire and the level of the game. As you get to monarch, it requires good empire managing to pull ahead on most maps. Above that level it will be a bigger hole to climb out of and you will need to make better decisions with your workers and tech choices.
In short I find that it is a lack of good cities and production that keeps players down.

Theseus · June 29, 2003, 22:55

UW, probably the best thing is to post some saves... maybe at 1000BC and at 10AD, and then people can give more relevant commentary / advice.

Uber Warrior · June 30, 2003, 00:06

Ok fair enough, lets say we are on a huge map with sixteen civs and at regent, Two main continents. I have tried multiple times with everyone from the Germans too the Americans. And no matter what I do I always end up about four behind in tech, now Is there anyway too bost tech?

vmxa1 · June 30, 2003, 00:27

If you start location is good, you would expect to be the tech leader fairly soon on most case. This is done by managing your workers to minimize their movement and what they do for task.
In the main you woudl need to mine bonus grassland tiles and then road them. Be sure that they are only improving tiles that will be worked now or very soon. I mean if you let workers be automated, they will improve tile that can not be worked at present and not for a very long time. They will mine tiles that are not in any cities radius.
If you do those things and plan your cities with some care, it does not require perfection at this level. You will soon be out producing the AI.
You must of course built as many cities as they do or nearly so to start or the sheer numbers will out pace you.
Use an industrious civ as a starter as their workers are faster.
Pay attention to the tiles that are more productive and be sure to get that pop growing.
Later look at things like rings or settler pumps and the like. This is not needed at Regent and you can work on that later via the many threads here or CFC.
You could micromanage to not waste food or shields, but that is not needed at this level either.
Do not be afraid to have cities overlap tiles, if you are now spreading out. You will not be able to work more than 6 tiles unless aquaducts or on a river. Even then you will only have 12 citizens, so you do not need the full 21 tiles.

Uber Warrior · July 1, 2003, 01:25

That will help immensly

Rhothaerill · July 1, 2003, 02:11

All the things vmxa1 said are good things, but here is something else to think about...don't always EXPECT tech parity in the early game. Because of AI trading one or two of them will sometimes be leading in tech until the mid-to-late-middle ages, even on regent depending on your start. The higher the difficulty, the farther you'll have to make up the tech parity. But if you take vmxa1's advice then you can gradually pull ahead of the AI. In many of my games I'll really start pulling ahead in the early Industrial age as my research machine is picking up steam and the AI's are devolving into MPP world wars.

vmxa1 · July 1, 2003, 02:24

Yes I did not talk about trading. This can be very powerful. I put that in with the advanced city placement. IOW things that you can read threads about and work up to as you go along.
There is an excellent thread on the strat forum on CFC to run down the power of trading.
You could browse some of the spoiler threads here on AU games to see how some of the better players handle it.

vmxa1 · July 1, 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Uber Warrior
That will help immensly

Glad to hear it. Some a bit of time looking over the many good threads. I know it is a lot when you first look at tehm, but plug away at the ones you find useful. Implement the concepts that appeal to you and you will be on your way.
Some very strong players find things on the boards to help them from time to time. A new perspective can be an eye opener.

Rhothaerill · July 1, 2003, 02:32

Yep, I owe a lot of my civ3 skills to browsing the strat forum. There is a lot of good info in there and the strat archives.

Another thing you can try is to play some of the Apolyton University courses. I wouldn't recommend starting on AU208 (somewhat frustrating because of the total war), but the new one that you can see in the strat forums is pretty good so far. Plus you have a chance to compare your own game with that of others. It's very helpful for learning because everyone is playing the same game and encountering many of the same events.

Mountain Sage · July 1, 2003, 07:20

A twisted way of pulling ahead of the tech race is to have war declared by LOTS of other civs to the actual tech leader (he's better far away from you...).
After 20 turns, declare peace and watch the war going on and all the civs involved (including the tech leader) almost stop researching.
But please, don't tell anybody I suggested it. I have my reputation as the PP to keep

Theseus · July 1, 2003, 19:58

Ooooh yeah.... do the Dog Pile.

That's not just for the tech leader, but for the ANYTHING leader. Too much land, too good land, top GNP, top pop, any of the above... get those red lines going.

(Very much in line with my rep, thank you very much

)

Uber Warrior · July 2, 2003, 00:23

Did that too Persia in a game Im currently wrking on...They got ass raped even though it took 25 turns or so......I already know that trick...Its my favorite one too pull

Uber Warrior · July 2, 2003, 00:26

Oh I am currently doing that...read my other thread...It highlights it more

Mountain Sage · July 3, 2003, 07:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Ooooh yeah.... do the Dog Pile.

That's not just for the tech leader, but for the ANYTHING leader. Too much land, too good land, top GNP, top pop, any of the above... get those red lines going.

(Very much in line with my rep, thank you very much

)

hey!

DP is not = as PP

Panag · July 3, 2003, 15:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Uber Warrior
Ok I tried a building game and basiclly found I got raped on tech even when I had the sci bar on 90% the ENTIRE game. Oh well post away

hi ,

extort tech's , or go to war and ask for techs in the peace deal , .....

have a nice day

Killazer · July 3, 2003, 22:47

easy, dont spend anything on sience or keep it at 10% then use the cash to buy/trade techs with the AI civs. If you can build some boats and make first contacts you can get TONS of techs by trading communications. This is actually absolutely essential if you find yourself isolated on an island.. need to beeline to map making or you will fall way behind the AI civs because they are trading techs.

Alsol, in order to keep the AI from bugging you, since you will have equal tech with them, you need to maintain a large military.

Mountain Sage · July 7, 2003, 07:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Killazer
easy, dont spend anything on sience or keep it at 10% then use the cash to buy/trade techs with the AI civs.
Alsol, in order to keep the AI from bugging you, since you will have equal tech with them, you need to maintain a large military.

You have to be careful with this approach. I you buy too many techs, specially from 1 or 2 civs only, they can increase their tech research (i.e. less turns to research). Then you will spend your gold more quickly to buy new techs, which will allow the other civ to research even faster....
After a while, you'll fall behind in techs since you don't have gold enough to pay for the latest techs.
Don't forget the civ will also sell the tech you just bought to other civs, and get still more gold.
And you created a KAI.

Of course, a big military means you have less gold to pay for techs...

vmxa1 · July 7, 2003, 12:38

Well hopefully you buy the tech on your turn and you sell it to recover your cost and maybe make a bit.

Quasar1011 · July 10, 2003, 23:29

Some techs can be skipped. Don't have access to saltpeter and horses, and neither is near enough to take in a war? Then skip military tradition. Good strong defensive units like infantrymen can slow down and stop cavalry if you get into a war. Same with chivalry if you can't acquire iron + horses. If you don't need marines, skip amphibious war. Somebody beat you to building Shakespeare's Theatre? Then skip free artistry.
Also skip researching government types you do not plan to use. If you do not build a big navy, consider skipping navigation, and go for magnetism instead. Since advanced flight gives you only paratroopers and helicopters, you might be able to skip that tech too. You may even be able to skip ecology and genetics in the modern era.

Another way to acquire techs is to acquire luxury resources. Sometimes if you ask a civ what will they offer for wine, they may throw in a tech that you don't have.

Once you have acquired a good world map, sell yours often, even every time diplomacy is conducted. Some civ may toss in a tech you skipped, just to get the complete world map. That happens not infrequently.

Also, a civ might offer a tech to entice you into signing a MPP with them, though this is an unreliable way to gain techs.

Finally, learn the cheat codes

cumi · July 11, 2003, 04:19

Hi,

I would like to suggest you something, what I've experienced or learned (here). I also play at Regend level and I also suck sometimes. I think, your playing stile is like mines, so the tipps could be useful...

1.) Play with a commercial civ. Simply, because you don't loos so much money. I am mostly playing with France or Carthago. They are industrios, too.

2.) In the beginning explore the territory, maybe you get some techs from the barbarian tribes.

3.) I play very peaceful, I attack my neighbour only, when I need more space to expand.

4.) Build the Great Library, to get the techs, that you don't want to research. My tech queue looks like the following: Writing, Literature, Mathematics, Currency... I never go for Wheel or Bronze working etc. I get all those techs, when my GL is finished. In the meantime try to contact civs as much as possible and trade techs with them, because the AI is trading them anyway, so you will be behind, if you are not present at the "world tech trade market".

5.) Later sell techs! Sell a tech to a civ first, who is the strongest. This tipp is very usefull, because, when you sell a tech, the first buyer civ is offering the most for it (so it's BAD for them)! Sometimes an AI civ is only 1 tech behind me, but for that single tech it offers EVERYTHING (few luxuries, some techs, about 200gpt etc). After such a deals, my tech slider is on 100%, because I get so much money from other civs. Of cource, you will not get so much in the beginning, but you have to trade at the beginning of the game, too. You have to build on the good relationship, so later the AI civ will have a TRUST is you.

6.) Sell luxuries! Later you will also get a lot of techs and/or gpt-s for luxuries. In the early game, maybe you will get a useless World Map for a lux., but the buyer civ will be very dependent (like hard drogs) on your lux. and will offer everithing for it, just to avoid disorders.

Sometimes I also have few "luck" in my Regent games. If I am on a continent with only 2 AI (technologically not very advanced - looser) civs, I can not do any good deals. Then I explore the second continent, where I meet 6 other civs and realize that they are all far more advanced then we are. In these cases it's very difficult to catch-up.

I think I am not very experienced civ player. I play mostly for fun and I want to win, so I play on lower diff levels, like Regent or even Warlord. I got these tipps here in the Apolyton forum and they really helped me to emprove my score...

cumi · July 11, 2003, 04:24

...almost forgot about the Newton's University and Copernicus Observatory wonders. They double the science output of the city where it was built...

The Smith's an the Wall Street wonders has almost the highest priority for me. You need them for money. For each of them, you can move your tech slider one step higher....

And finally...Of course the Libraries, Universities and Banks (later the Stock Exchanges) are also a MUST in every city... But, I think this is not an issue for you....

cumi · July 11, 2003, 04:29

You wrote that your slider is on 90% almost all the time. This doesn't means, that you will research faster. It means only, that you spend the 90% of your INCOME on the science! If you have a huge income (and lot of scientific improvements) you can even let it on 60%.

This was really my last Reply..

inca911 · July 11, 2003, 09:05

Remember to research techs that the computer does not typically research! You can then trade that "fresh" tech to others and catch up on the ones you've missed. If you continually research techs that your AI opponents already have, you lose the great advantage of trading. To me, this is the most important path to tech parity. I only play on Emperor with an occasional Deity game thrown in from time to time so I know what it's like to be behind in tech. I typically win 4/5 Emperor games, and have only won a couple of times on Deity (aided by great starts).

Also, don't be afraid to dump a fair amount of gpt to get a tech that you are missing. Later game, 30gpt is nothing. You don't even have to move the science slider to make up for it.

Quasar1011 · July 11, 2003, 18:44

Quote:

Originally posted by inca911
Also, don't be afraid to dump a fair amount of gpt to get a tech that you are missing. Later game, 30gpt is nothing.

I agree. Let's say it's early game and you can get to a tech in 7 turns, gaining 6GPT. Or, you can get the tech in 6 turns, losing 6GPT. Now think of it this way: 6 GPT x 6 turns = 36 gold. If you can make 36 gold before you gain the tech, you have broken even. But you stand a good chance of adjusting your slider on the last turn before you discover the tech, possibly gaining most or all of that 36 gold. Think outside the box!

Gravity Happens · July 12, 2003, 23:22

Libraries and universities man. Thats it. Period.

Panag · July 13, 2003, 09:49

Quote:

Originally posted by Gravity Happens
Libraries and universities man. Thats it. Period.

hi ,

dont forget the great lib and newton's univ

have a nice day

Gen.Dragolen · July 16, 2003, 09:37

Well I must have some upity AI Civ opponents then: in every game at the higher difficulty levels, the AI Civ's refuse to trade at all.

Good thing you can almost keep up by going after the Theory of Evolution wonder. However, I've found that it is impossible to compete against 5 or 6 other civs of greater size/power who are all researching and sharing advances. Expecially when you are stuck not being able to conquer them earlier in the game.

And at this point epsionage would be useful, if it worked. I have yet to succeed in reliably placing a spy or stealing a tech. Espionage is a great way to start wars, but that's about it.

The curious thing is that the AI usually doesn't build things like libraries and universities until late in the game. Even civs like the Babylonians who are supposed to be scientific will go for wonders or cathedrals long before a university. I usually try to build them in the largest cities as soon as I can, even spending a lot of gold to finish the work a few turns early. Using civs like the Egyptians, it makes late game culture flipping a definite possibility, and has grabbed some cities for me that I couldn't get to with troops.

D.