Am I Right to be Angry About This?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yeah, you should be angry. Outraged in fact.

At the chickenchokers in the white house and the whole policy making chain on the occupation, not on the grunts who are doing their jobs and getting ass****ed from both directions.

The candidness of the interviewees is rather interesting - seems it's already "What can they do to me, send me to Iraq?" syndrome over there.

Originally posted by DanS
Here's an article about a military police sargeant and his experiences in policing a part of Baghdad.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jun30.html

After reading about this, I would say that the sargeant needs to stop B & M-ing about the situation that he's in and get to work. His bad attitude--after only two months in Iraq--is killing any progress that he or anyone makes on the ground. Also, how could any of his troops take a positive attitude, when his sargeant has such a bad one?

(a) The MP's and others can only "get to work" if they have reasonable tools, supplies, support, and leadership on the ground with concrete goals. What you have is the mother****er of all cluster****s.

(b) You immediately have an intractible problem with the Iraqi police. "You can't arm them because you can't trust them" doesn't lead to good working relationships - the Iraqi cops are regarded as lackeys of the Americans, fools for putting up with disrespect, so they get it on both ends. The grunts understand the Iraqi people being pissed off with **** living conditions - no jobs, not enough money to buy the food that rots because you can't keep it cool, nothing to do except get pissed off in the heat, and no real signs of improvement. Nobody wants to be a target for people who you can understand why they're pissed off, because you're pissed off for the same reasons and you're just a foreign occupier.

(c) It doesn't matter if the Sergeant has an attitude. These pukes are reservists, so most of them have some experience with the real world. A *itching NCO in this sort of situation just indicates that he's got a clue too, (after all, they all know each other from their CONUS reserve duty), instead of just trying to put sunshine up their asses.

(d) It's dangerous when soldiers stop *****ing. It generally means they no longer give a ****, and all sorts of things can go wrong from that point.

(e) *****ing is currently the only R&R they have. That or shooting something.

(f) Your DC buddies have been so busy impressing each other with how they could beat the Iraqis with one hand in their pants, that they've decided they can continue the show and prove their manhood about how few troops they can use to occupy as well. Most of the troops have a fair idea of how many total are in different units and throughout the Army, so it's not too hard to imagine no rotations - especially when you have no official info as to rotation policy, because as yet, we don't have ****ing clue how long we're going to keep at this FUBAR, so there is no ****ing rotation policy. That lesson was learned a hell of long time ago - how bad for morale it is to stick troops in some shithole "for the duration"

Unfortunately, all the precious ideologues who run the show haven't learned that. Shinseki was right about the occupation requirements, and he was publicly reamed by Wolfowitz, who was out of line (he's not in the chain of command), but was supported. So when Shinseki finally grew some nads, he got reamed for it - that discourages other officers from bothering to speak up about reality.

(g) With the onset of summer and the slow pace of improvement, you have a real problem building up - the geopolitical cost to the US, and and the cost in terms of encouraging Islamic radicals, is far too high to ever consider backing down. The US has to achieve a positive result here, but is not committing enough resources to do it, and is too ideologically hidebound. Nobody is going to wait for a bread and butter, picket fences, Republican fantasyland market economy to develop. We're already busting people for corruption, but in dysfunctional economies (like a decade of sanctions, or now), the corrupt are the only ones who can get stuff done.

With nothing to do, lots of heat, lots of guns, no money, no jobs (back to nothing to do), and nothing working, you're going to have trouble - especially when you can blame it on uniformed foreigners. Kill a few of them, they respond in kind, you hate the infidels more, they hate your ass more, and this whole "beacon of democracy in the Middle East" thing gets turned into a complete pile of goatshit for everyone to see.

From those who have been on the ground in these kinds of situations, are my expectations realistic?

Not at all.

LOTM - regulars realize there's a lot more that can be done to keep their asses in line, so they're not inclined to talk freely to reporters. There's nothing to gain, and maybe plenty to lose by doing so.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Islamist, as in political aprties that openyl associate with Islam, you know, like the ones that won the elections in Algeria that were propmtly cancelled by the
Army back then, or the party that came to power in turkey in either 95 or 97, i ofrget which, who's leader was forced to resign from office under pressure by the Generals, or the current ruling party in turkey.

Quote:

Citation please? My sense is that theyd like their own state in the best possible world, but are realistic enought to see that is not possible.

I am not going to pay to link to old articles from the NY times to satisfy you. If you have a payed subscription to their archives, look up the last 5 articles written about the Kurds by the Times.

I occasionally read the NYT. I regularly read the WaPo, and listen to NPR, and often check the BBC online. I do not see what you claim. Its generally considered proper here as elsewhere on the net to provide citations for ones own contested assertions.

[SlowwHand]

Yeah. What MtG said!
It's those infamous chicken-chokers.

[lord of the mark]

MTG - my understanding is that wolfie expected a small occupation force on the assumption that we'd basically let the exiles run the country. Shinseki's pals at the State department stomped on that, and there was no plan B. So we didnt have enough occupation forces. If its this admins fault, its Dubyas continued tolerance of two different factions on national security policy that are virtually at war with each other.


And this sergeant went beyond *****ing about lack of support - he showed a massive disdain for the people it is his job to work with, and for the mission he was sent to accomplish. and to a reporter no less.

[uh Clem]

If you believe that a soldier's first responsibility is to make his Commander-in-Chief (and his policies) look good, then I suppose you'd have to be a little ticked at this guy.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by DanS
You guys are getting way off the beaten path, here. My thread is being Fez'ed.

I think it's "fezzed"

[SlowwHand]

Bring them home. Hell. Let Iraq work it out.
Any punkass Hussein raises his head, blow it off.

[lord of the mark]

"ith nothing to do, lots of heat, lots of guns, no money, no jobs (back to nothing to do), and nothing working, you're going to have trouble - especially when you can blame it on uniformed foreigners. Kill a few of them, they respond in kind, you hate the infidels more, they hate your ass more, and this whole "beacon of democracy in the Middle East" thing gets turned into a complete pile of goatshit for everyone to see."


its just as damn hot, just as poor, just as boring in the shiite and Kurdish sections. yet virtually all the attacks on US troops have come in the Sunni Arab belt - which was quite predictable pre-war.

By the way, the goatshit has already resulted in progress between Israel and the Pals, demonstrations in Iran, and Iran negotiating the handover of Al qaeeda cells. And the prosecution of the WOT has continued unabated.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I occasionally read the NYT. I regularly read the WaPo, and listen to NPR, and often check the BBC online. I do not see what you claim. Its generally considered proper here as elsewhere on the net to provide citations for ones own contested assertions.

OK, then cite the article that says what you claim.... that the Kurds "know Turkey would overun them and thus will stick with a federated Iraq". OPh wait, you haven;t cited anything either. (I rarely ask people to cite, and only if they make direct cialms (this guy said this, this mountain is so tall) becuase I assume most people here do not come here to lie. Now, if you want a strict citation regime, fine, but as I said, you start)

if its islamist like the current ruling party in Turkey that would be very good. We dont know what Algeria would have been like under their islamist party, due to the coup - we cant be sure based on their generally positive record in municipalities.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
By the way, the goatshit has already resulted in progress between Israel and the Pals, demonstrations in Iran, and Iran negotiating the handover of Al qaeeda cells. And the prosecution of the WOT has continued unabated.

And since all those things can also be said to be the result of forces churning well before the war, you will have to make a fine arguement to back this up.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
MTG - my understanding is that wolfie expected a small occupation force on the assumption that we'd basically let the exiles run the country. Shinseki's pals at the State department stomped on that, and there was no plan B. So we didnt have enough occupation forces. If its this admins fault, its Dubyas continued tolerance of two different factions on national security policy that are virtually at war with each other.

I didn't know Shinseki had so many pals at State, since he's the Chief of Staff of the United States Army. wrt how to carry out an occupation and security related duties, the amateurs should sit their lard asses down and shut the **** up and give the professionals the resources they need.

Just because wolfie and friends had a wet dream about a magic occupation by US lackey exiles, didn't mean that it was ever realistic. You don't invade and occupy hostile countries without a realistic occupation plan, and clear implementation of that plan, as well as pre-approved funding and resource commitments. Not of you want to succeed, anyway. The entire execution of the top level policy process so far has been amateurish to an extent worthy of the early Clinton days.

And this sergeant went beyond *****ing about lack of support - he showed a massive disdain for the people it is his job to work with, and for the mission he was sent to accomplish. and to a reporter no less.

Yeah, he *****ed. Soldiers ***** about everything. Like I said, it's the only R&R in country besides shooting something, or counting grains of sand, or drops of sweat falling off the tip of your nose. He's on the ground dealing with it on a daily basis. What can they do, send him to Iraq?

[chequita guevara]

Is it another Vietnam yet?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
"ith nothing to do, lots of heat, lots of guns, no money, no jobs (back to nothing to do), and nothing working, you're going to have trouble - especially when you can blame it on uniformed foreigners. Kill a few of them, they respond in kind, you hate the infidels more, they hate your ass more, and this whole "beacon of democracy in the Middle East" thing gets turned into a complete pile of goatshit for everyone to see."


its just as damn hot, just as poor, just as boring in the shiite and Kurdish sections. yet virtually all the attacks on US troops have come in the Sunni Arab belt - which was quite predictable pre-war.

And if you think they're more trustworthy on account of that, then you're naive. The Shiites and Kurds have different agendas, and different uses for the US. Almost a fight of the country's population is in Baghdad, and if you add in the major cities nearby, it's almost a third. Thats' also where there's no oil, but major industrial base. It's meaningless to talk about the fringes of the country where resistance is low, if you can't deal with the economic, industrial and political capital. Besides, if the Sunni arabs are harassing the Americans, why should the Shiites and the Kurds help either enemy - instead of quietly working to enhance their own power?


[quote]
By the way, the goatshit has already resulted in progress between Israel and the Pals,
[quote]



There's been "progress" since Carter, Sadat and Begin. "Progress" is just a series of maneuvers to see who can be blamed for ****ing up first. When there's a real result, give me a call. Besides, the PA ****ed up with the latest intifada.

demonstrations in Iran,

Since 1999, off and on. Exile groups and resistance have been active before that. So was Khatami getting elected due to Bush's brilliant strategy too?

and Iran negotiating the handover of Al qaeeda cells.

They're just trembling in fear of us. And if you believe that, I have a couple of really good camels to sell you. BTW, the Iranians have far more to maneuver for and far more to gain in the regional scene by playing the US. If they have to sell out a few radicals who aren't any use to them, why wouldn't they?

And the prosecution of the WOT has continued unabated.

Really? I'm sooooooo impressed. Just like the WoD, it's the war that never ends.

[Oerdin]

Soldiers have a right to *****, but, they're supposed to ***** to each other and not to the press.

At least that's what was SOP when I was in the Army.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Is it another Vietnam yet?

No, it's it's very own FUBAR. Vietnam was just sooooo 60's.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Soldiers have a right to *****, but, they're supposed to ***** to each other and not to the press.

At least that's what was SOP when I was in the Army.

That's because the regular Army can do a lot more to you than the reserves can, in general. What are they gonna do, ship him back to Pennsylvania or whereever he's from for an Art. 32?

If he was a regular, you could just have him on latrine duty for life, then arrange a transfer at your convenience to the Korean DMZ. Say, arriving in December.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


No, it's it's very own FUBAR. Vietnam was just sooooo 60's.

So there's no Ferengi yet?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


So there's no Ferengi yet?

Ever been to an open air market in a major Arab city? There've been Ferengi here for thousands of years.

[Kidicious]

Holy Sh1t!

[DanS]

Not at all.

Thanks for the reality check.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DanS
Not at all.

Thanks for the reality check.

I figured I'd summarize and give you the short version for your second question.

[DanS]

By the way, I agree with you that the neocons took the wrong approach here by going lean. As you point out, we must succeed, so you would think they would want a healthy margin of error. Also, it reinforces the fact that the neocons aren't taking all of the costs and potential costs into account when they propose action.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Reality is that occupation costs more than fighting - not on a day by day basis for ordnance and fuel, but most other categories are the same, then you get to lump in all the social services costs, etc.

When you get to what we should be spending, to make this work, then the numbers are pretty horrifying.

[DanS]

Well, do you have any sort of breakout or totals (even vague) on what you believe those costs would be?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Not off the top of my head, but IMO, we need to start simulating an economy, until one gets built. Give people basic stuff to buy, pay them, try to find stuff for them to do other than shoot at us. Take sanctions level income per capita and jump it about 50% for starters, plus the costs of imported food and other basic items. 25 million Iraqis, give or take - so maybe 2 billion and change a month, borrowed against future oil sales. That number would be reduced pretty fast over time as a real economy and real jobs start developing.

We also need to do a quick inventory of needed mechanical infrastructure - power plants, sewage treatment and water treatment, etc., and probably buy 2-3 billion worth of pumps and parts and package treatment stuff right off the bat.

[David Floyd]

Well, we ****ed their **** up, so we should probably pay for it. Let's take the money out of the US military to fix what the US military blew up.

[Q Classic]

Well, do you have any sort of breakout or totals (even vague) on what you believe those costs would be?

bush and co. apparently didn't.

[DanS]

bush and co. apparently didn't.

Of course they didn't give a total on what MtG believed the costs would be.

[Kuciwalker]

I would hope not...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DanS
bush and co. apparently didn't.

Of course they didn't give a total on what MtG believed the costs would be.

They'd never sell the whole package if they disclosed the costs...