Palestinians demand Israel releases prisoners

Sirotnikov · July 3, 2003, 01:24

The Palestinians demand that as a gesture Israeli releases large groups of prisoners it has accumulated during the Intifada and before it.

The total number of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel is quoted to be between 5 and 8 thousands. A large part of them are prisoners serving sentances for terrorist attacks, another part is awaiting trial and yet another part are the administrative prisoners, whom are not charged but are held on intelligence grounds.

Most of the administrative prisoners have been released so far naturally, and thus the discrepancy between the numbers of prisoners, since some bodies have larger numbers, and the military says those numbers are old, and most have been released.

Now, as for the palestinians, they demand that Israel releases key Hamas, Jihad and Fatah activists who became symbols of the "struggle". Ironically they are those who have most blood on their hands whether by direct actions (making the bombs, sending terrorists off, using firearms) or indirect actions (funding, organizing and administering terrorist activities).

This is causing major debate in Israel, as so far only light wieght prisoners have been released, and only 1 convicted terrorist murderor has been released - who has served 27 years (out of 3 life sentances + 70 years).

What do you think?

Is it moral or even legal, to release known arch-murderors to 'appease the palestinian street' (as the Palestinains claim)?

Is it moral to do so, when the Roadmap itself, demands that the Palestinians arrest terrorists and dismantles the terrorist organizations?

Is it moral to do so, in light of the fact, that most of the terrorists released in Israel in previous deals (1993-2000) have returned to terrorist bussiness and infact many of them killed much more people than before, and only made their way back to Israeli prisons?

geeslaka · July 3, 2003, 01:30

I think it's a great idea, cuts down on overpopulation problems. I believe that within 50 years the world will be low on oil and at maximum sustainable population. Unless Bush finds an excuse to use nukes, in which case none of this matters.

MichaeltheGreat · July 3, 2003, 01:50

The problem is if you don't release them, the Palestinians scream you're not following the ****ing map, pull over and we'll drive. Then Hamas et al claim they have an excuse to blow off their "cease fire" etc. etc.

The solution is simple - next time around, don't take prisoners.

Az · July 3, 2003, 02:00

What ceasefire?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/313954.html

MichaeltheGreat · July 3, 2003, 02:50

Back to business as usual already?

geeslaka · July 3, 2003, 03:07

Yep. If they keep killing Palestinians faster than they breed they'll eventually run out. Obviously this is not a renewable resource. Therefore they should stop killing Palestinians in order to let the resource replenish itself.

Az · July 3, 2003, 03:11

It seems that most of the PA is following the agreement, and their leaders have vowed to fight anyone who'll resist them ( It's about time! ). Hamas is rather large, but has no chance against the PA, if they'll fight "for real". Ironically, the ones that are doing most of the "fighting" now, are elements of the Fatah.

I hope, I REALLY hope that the PA will start to crack down on them. Because if they won't, Israel will.

laurentius · July 3, 2003, 03:33

Siro:And the pals are the only murderers there? Howabout you israelis, how many israelis are in prison for warcrimes, terror against civilians or as administrative prisoners? My guess is hardly any. Can't you smell your own bigotry?

Cruddy · July 3, 2003, 03:42

Siro: in answer to your original question, I would guess it depends on level of conviction.

Holding suspects for intelligence reasons is a dead end. Let them go - holding onto them gains little.

A political leader without violent convictions - put them out on probation. Freedom... but with restrictions to report in every so often.

An activist convicted of attacking military targets... see if/how it helps to release them. These are the sticky areas... How do you know they won't do it again? You don't... but sometimes keeping them inside is an excuse for more violence on the outside.

A convicted activist with innocent blood on their hands - let them serve their sentence.

Every case - judge it on merit. Every case is different. Labelling them ALL as activists and throwing away the key isn't a smart move.

Lauentius - crap attempt at a threadjack. You want to start a new thread, go ahead.

laurentius · July 3, 2003, 03:49

Why would I want to start a new thread? There are already too many ME-threads. What I'm asking is why are there only palestinians in jails? If you want justice, be fair and punish israelies also. There are two sides in this, not just the terrorists and the good guys as far as I see it. It's really you whos threadjacking here.

Az · July 3, 2003, 05:07

There aren't only palestinians in Israeli jail. Israeli soldiers that are convicted of unlegal acts, are sitting in jail. There are no Israeli soldiers in palestian jails because the palestinians don't take prisoners.

keep on rolling, baby.

yavoon · July 3, 2003, 05:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
There aren't only palestinians in Israeli jail. Israeli soldiers that are convicted of unlegal acts, are sitting in jail. There are no Israeli soldiers in palestian jails because the palestinians don't take prisoners.

keep on rolling, baby.

smack the eurocom!

Ecthy · July 3, 2003, 05:21

don't release the guys that had key positions. no other country would do that anyway

release the guantanamo style prisoners, that are arrested when wrong time wrong place, if there actually are any left, which I doubt given your introduction. can't imagine all 8,000 are really terrorists, though.

and even if they were in planning, though without any executive or command position: those guys awere easily influenced and talekd int osome trash. not all of them, but some might deserve a chance.

can't imagine you haven't been through these points anyway, though. so it really seems to be the question as to whether or not release key persons. that depends if there are political prisoners among them. those that are accused of being leaders when in reality they're just aligned in some way to those groups, which usually have more functions than terrorist attacks.

laurentius · July 3, 2003, 05:52

eurocom,

hehe
I see already that trying to discuss this with you wouldnt lead anywhere. Well, have it your way. It's really your problem after all, so why would I care anyway.

Sandman · July 3, 2003, 06:36

If you want peace, you have to release them, unfortunately.

Eli · July 3, 2003, 07:14

An Israeli was probably kidnapped and killed in Tul Karem.

Al'Kimiya · July 3, 2003, 07:35

Couldn't these prisoners accidently "disappear"? Then you can say you did release them and they were clearly not your problem anymore

DinoDoc · July 3, 2003, 07:54

Why not demand a crackdown on militants by the PLO before you release the prisoners? Introduce some element of reciprocity into the matter.

The diplomat · July 3, 2003, 09:15

Do not release the prisoners that are directly linked to acts of terror. As you pointed out yourself, they will just go back to planning and carrying out acts of terror. Imagine releasing a terrorists, and then having a suicide attack that kills 10 or 20 people, and learning that the guy who was released was responsible.

For the safety of Israelis, you can't release such dangerous people.

Sirotnikov · July 3, 2003, 09:54

Quote:

Siro:And the pals are the only murderers there?

Hmm...

Terrorist comes up to a bus station and opens fire on innocent by-standers. Terrorist attack equal to mass murder or murder one.

Soldier accidentally hurts/kills civilians during a fire-fight with militants who hide themselves among civilian population. The geneva convention says the responsability is on the terrorist side, and the soldiers are allowed to perform city combat.

The worse you could argue is causing death by recklessness.

Quote:

How about you israelis, how many israelis are in prison for warcrimes

How many Israelis have performed war crimes?
0-5 ?

Quote:

terror against civilians

if you mean harrassment against civilians, then there are quite alot. I don't know exact numbers but they are probably in the dozens.

A trial is going on for several months now for several members of a border guard brigade, that was recently dismantled because it was found to be promoting violence and abuse.

A trial recently began to another group of soldiers from a border guard and a Nahal brigade, against whom evidence amounted about abuse.

Quote:

or as administrative prisoners?

How many Israelis have been violently rioting, throwing stones or shooting randomly at people? None.

Quote:

My guess is hardly any. Can't you smell your own bigotry?

You compare soldiers who fight in difficult trapping conditions, to terrorists who create conditions with the intent to slaughter innocents on either side.

Your bigotry smells worse, and it's brown too

Sirotnikov · July 3, 2003, 09:58

Quote:

Why not demand a crackdown on militants by the PLO before you release the prisoners? Introduce some element of reciprocity into the matter.

They promise us a 3 month ceasefire instead, and say that they can't crackdown without poular support.

Funny thing is, they could do it several times in 2002 when Hamas was getting too much of an upper hand in the streets, and Fatah soldiers and Palestinian police shot Palestinian rioters protesting against Arafat, and killed a man or two, and wounded a good dozen.

Funny thing, most international networks only played 5 sec clips of this...

Ecthy · July 3, 2003, 10:01

those international networks also falsely show Palestinians dancing in the streets after terracts.

Sirotnikov · July 3, 2003, 10:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
those international networks also falsely show Palestinians dancing in the streets after terracts.

http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/cnn.htm

Quote:

Claim: CNN used old footage to fake images of 'Palestinians dancing in the street' after the terrorist attack on the USA.
Status: False.

[sic]

Origins: No,
CNN did not air decade-old footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets. Eason Jordan, CNN's Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 — a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles. The person who made the claim quoted above has since recanted.

....

Ecthy · July 3, 2003, 10:19

the point never was in the age of the recordings but rather how representative they are. they're used to claim that a majority of Palestinians support terror. those dancers were, however, an exception.

lord of the mark · July 3, 2003, 10:30

release a handful as goodwill gesture and to strengthen Abbas. then watch what Pals do. If they do nothing at all to fight terror, then return no more prisoners. If they do the minimum - attempting with limited success to stop ticking bombs from the areas they control, and arresting members of rogue AAMB cells - release some more. If they actually disarm Hamas, release the prisoners in large numbers.

And you probably have to release Bargouti, hes a player now, and you may even be setting him up as such.

lord of the mark · July 3, 2003, 10:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Ecthelion
the point never was in the age of the recordings but rather how representative they are. they're used to claim that a majority of Palestinians support terror. those dancers were, however, an exception.

well yeah since the PA sent out word not to dance, cause it would hurt their image. You might as well claim that Israelis dont support the overthrow of Saddam, since they didnt go out and dance in the streets over it.
Polling data seems to show that something like 25 -35% of the Pal population consistently support terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians, while close to 50% do when the peace process is not going well. Im not sure the support for Bin Laden, but given that polls show a significant minority in support of him in many parts of the muslim world, it wouldnt be surprising if that were true among palestinians as well.

Ecthy · July 3, 2003, 10:49

it's just wrong to bring the dancing guys up as an argument for palestinian gloating about terracts

even if some support them, that support might be reluctant. it certainly is inconsistent, as you have just shown. dancing people however are fond of terrorism (yes, all dancing people on earth

), and that just cannot be true for those 20-30%. they're human, too. the street dancers aren't. they're evil satan scum.

Kuciwalker · July 3, 2003, 11:18

Don't release any of the terrorists. That's just STUPID.

Release all of the political prisoners.

Az · July 3, 2003, 11:19

hey, that's the flag of the US!

in any case, I don't mind releasing the old prisoners, those who served more than 20 years in prison.

Kuciwalker · July 3, 2003, 11:20

Yes, but I can't put it in my sig

smilies don't work in the sig