Anyone want to beta test the new Conquests civs/UUs with me? - Page 2

Brundlefly · July 8, 2003, 10:51

Um, sure, I'll test it with you if you reassure me that your avatar is not a self-portrait...

Panzer32 · July 8, 2003, 12:02

King_Henry · July 8, 2003, 14:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae

6. Treat all terrain as Roads, cost 20 Shields

Dominae

Gotta go with number 6. This is the most balanced choice IMHO. I think Firaxis will go with this anyway.

Konquest02 · July 8, 2003, 16:33

In a recent screenshot, we saw the Hittites second city building a 3-man chariot. It was 22 turns away, so I'm pretty sure it costs 30 shields...

I think this UU will look like:

3Man Chariot
#1 - 3/2/2, 30 shields, replaces horseman.
#2 (most probable) - 1/2/3 or 1/1/3, 30 shields, replaces chariot.

I think #2 is most probable because in the screenshot (shown below), the year is only 2030BC, so the prob. of getting up to HB is very very low.

What do you think about this?

--Kon--

sabrewolf · July 8, 2003, 17:00

3,2,2 seems a little too powerful. it's like a gallic swordsman (60 or 70 shields!) without iron...

1,2,3 wouldn't be good for the upgrade path (less defence and 1 MP less for the same cost?)

1,1,3 is more like it, allthough it's still a difficult call for the upgrade. and "3-man" sounds to me like 1 navigator and 2 fighters... so an offensive unit.

but otherwise there's not much left in the low ADM point ranges :-(

btw: does anyone know what the swamp (as to be seen in the picture above) does? movement cost, worker actions, etc.

[edit: correction]

Dominae · July 8, 2003, 17:04

Kon, I was thinking of something along those lines too. It's either 1/1/3 20 Shields, or 1/2/3 30 Shields, and probably requires Horses (the second city is probably sitting on one).

Which one?

Dominae

Dominae · July 8, 2003, 17:07

I bet the Hittites start with The Wheel like the Japanese, allowing them to build their 1/1/3 UU almost right from the start to perform early rushes. Still seems inferior to the Jag, though.

Dominae

Dominae · July 8, 2003, 18:58

Doh! It cannot be a 20-Shield unit, so strike that option above.

How about this: 1/1/3, Blitz, requires Horses, 20 Shields. The Hittites would definitely be Militaristic, but maybe they could start with The Wheel, making their UU somewhat interesting.

Dominae

DaveMcW · July 8, 2003, 19:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Konquest02
I think #2 is most probable because in the screenshot (shown below), the year is only 2030BC, so the prob. of getting up to HB is very very low.

I disagree!

With Wheel or Warrior Code as a start tech, they can get HBR with two 20-turn researches. This is very possible on regent or monarch, but they are probably testing it on chieftain!

There is no logical stat combo for a 30-shield chariot to have and still upgrade to horsemen. So it has to replace the horseman.

My guesses are 2/2/2 or 2/1/3.

Dominae · July 8, 2003, 21:15

Ok, good, those suggestions make a lot more sense from a design perspective.

Which will it be, 2/1/3 or 2/2/2? Both units are Horsemen replacements, and therefore cost 30 Shields, are available with Horseback Riding, and require Horses. I assume the Three-Man will be wheeled. Those are fearsome units for a militaristic civ to have access to, although pound for pound I think the Mounted Warrior is better.

Dominae

Konquest02 · July 8, 2003, 21:15

I like your 2/1/3 horseman Dave. I think it fits very well...

Dominae · July 9, 2003, 09:19

Ok, let's say the Incans look like this:

---

Incans

Traits: Industrious, Religious
Techs: Ceremonial Burial, Masonry

UU: Incan Scout; replaces Warrior, 1/1/1, treat all terrain as Roads, 10 Shields

---

This effectively makes the Incan Warriors super-Scouts. However, compare to the Jaguar Warrior and the Aztecs: the Incan Scout cannot retreat, and does not benefit from a Militaristic promotions and cheap Barracks. And, compare to Expansionist civs: the Incan Scout can still run into Barbs from Good Huts. This is the best balance that I could think of that fits all the facts. By the way, Religious need not be the second trait, I just picked one that's not Expansionist to avoid giving Incans a useless Scout unit.

Dominae

Dominae · July 9, 2003, 10:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Feephi
Um, sure, I'll test it with you if you reassure me that your avatar is not a self-portrait...

As much as Panzer32's is.

Welcome aboard.

Dominae

vulture · July 9, 2003, 11:47

Quote:

Originally posted by DaveMcW

With Wheel or Warrior Code as a start tech, they can get HBR with two 20-turn researches. This is very possible on regent or monarch, but they are probably testing it on chieftain!

There is no logical stat combo for a 30-shield chariot to have and still upgrade to horsemen. So it has to replace the horseman.

My guesses are 2/2/2 or 2/1/3.

There is no reason why it has to upgrade to horsemen - it could skip a link in the upgrade chain. For example, the immortal replaces the swordsman, but doesn't upgrade to medieval infantry, which the swordsman does. The hoplite replaces the spearman, but upgrades directly to musketmen, as does the numidian merc (which would have to downgrade to become a pike).

Given the kinds of UU seen in PtW, I could well believe a 2/1/3 unit replacing the chariot and upgrading directly to knights. (1/1/3 would be more of a normal civ 3 UU, costing the same as a chariot but with one improvement). Likewise a 2/2/2 chariot for 39 shields.

Dominae · July 9, 2003, 12:02

After some sleuthing on the internet, I've got a little more info about the new civs and UUs, giving rise to the info below.

I'm pretty sure that the Incan UU is a Scout replacement, as it is referred to as "a really fast Scout". From the screenshots it is also 1/1/1. Both these facts make it awkward to design. My best solution is to make the Incans Expansionist, but have them start without a Scout unit (as Kon pointed out, it would be too easy to rush). Of course, the unit could very well change during beta testing, but I think we should stick with the facts for now.

Please take a look at the info below and fill in the gaps with educated guesses.

Code:

1. Hittites

Traits: Militaristic, ?
Techs: The Wheel, ?
UU: Three-Man Chariot; replaces Horsemen, 2/2/2, Wheeled

---

2. Incans

Traits: Expansionist, ?
Techs: Pottery, ?
UU: Chasqui Scout; replaces Scout, 1/1/1, treat all terrain as Roads

Special: Incans do not start with a Scout

---

3. Mayans

Traits: Religious (the "mystical" Mayans), ?
Techs: Ceremonial Burial, ?
UU: Mayan Javelineer (replaces Archer); ?

---

4. Sumerians

Traits: Scientific (the "innovative" Sumerians), ?
Techs: Bronze Working, ?
UU: Enkidu Warrior (replaces Warrior); ?

Dominae

Dominae · July 9, 2003, 12:23

More thoughts:

1. "Use...the Sumerian Enkidu Warrior to quickly gain military dominance" (from the Civ3 website).

This could mean anything, but I assume it means it's a Warrior replacement and is meant for offense. Very tough to design. The best thing I can think of is giving it an extra HP or two. Maybe it's a Swordsmen replacement that does not require Iron to build.

2. Let's work with the Mayan Javelineer as an Archer replacement. 3/1/1 for 20 Shields too powerful, even for a non-Militaristic civ? How about 3/1/1 for 30 Shields? Or 3/1/1 requires Iron for 20 Shields?

3. The Trebuchet is as mentioned before probably a 6-power bombardment unit for 30 Shields, available with Engineering. Pretty boring, but the website does mention it they "batter down enemy's Walls". Of course, any bombard unit does this already.

Dominae

Dominae · July 9, 2003, 20:49

After a look at the GameSpot preview of Conquests (found here), it looks like any stab at mimicking the new civs will be quite off, as there will be new unit abilities and two new traits! The Sumerians, for instance, will be an Agricultural civ, although we can only guess what that means.

All is not lost for the UUs, however. I'm reasonably confident the new UUs will look something like this:

Hittite Three-Man Chariot
Horsemen replacement
2/2/2, Wheeled

Incan Chasqui Scout
Scout replacement
1/1/1, treats all terrain as Roads, 20 Shields
Incans do not start with a Scout

Mayan Javelineer
Archer replacement
3/1/1, 30 Shields

Sumerian Enkidu Warrior
Warrior replacement
2/0/1

Would anyone be interested in testing these units out, just for fun?

Dominae

Dominae · July 9, 2003, 20:56

Hm, the Enkidu looks to be 2/2/1 from the screenshots. How annoying. And, the Chasqui Warrior was 1/1/1 in one screenie, and 2/1/1 in another. Could there be a Wonder that boost the Attack or Defense values of all your units?

This thread is becoming a rumor mill for Conquests. Let us forget about it, shall we (I'm the only one posting here, anyways...).

Dominae

vmxa1 · July 9, 2003, 22:42

The new stuff make this a must have for me.

m0lok0plus · July 9, 2003, 23:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
Hm, the Enkidu looks to be 2/2/1 from the screenshots. How annoying. And, the Chasqui Warrior was 1/1/1 in one screenie, and 2/1/1 in another. Could there be a Wonder that boost the Attack or Defense values of all your units?

Dominae

well the Statue of Zeus makes your troops more powerful according to the conquests section of the www.Civ3.com website. whether that's what's happened remains to be seen

Jon Shafer · July 10, 2003, 04:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
And, the Chasqui Warrior was 1/1/1 in one screenie, and 2/1/1 in another.

Maybe it's a sign.

Dominae · July 10, 2003, 10:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
Maybe it's a sign.

Many of your one-liner posts are beginning to sound like panag's, Trip.

SO, Statue of Zeus, cost 400 Shields, all your units gain +1 power? That's quite powerful.

Dominae

FrustratedPoet · July 10, 2003, 10:34

That does indeed sound very powerful. "Effect expires with .... Gunpowder???"

Dominae · July 10, 2003, 11:04

Yeah, or Monotheism or Theology, and is made available with Polytheism. This ensures that the Wonder's power is restricted to a very short interval in the game.

Dominae

Jon Shafer · July 10, 2003, 14:40

Ahem.

Quote:

Originally posted by Trip
Don't worry, we'll balance them out so you don't have to.

Dominae · July 10, 2003, 14:44

Ah, excellent, my list of people to blame personally when Conquests comes out is growing...

Dominae