What is your opinion of the United States?

[Az]

[Imran Siddiqui]

Shi, you forgot that we have bigger Cheney's

[Kramerman]

Re American Pride
This, I think, is one of my problems with understanding international loathing of the US. I dont understand why they would dislike us because we are loud and proud of being americans. That seems kind of childish to me, adn i will explain:

See, it is in American culture to have team spirit. In high schools everywhere in the country pep ralleys are usually held seasonally, monthly, and sometimes even weekly. We like to root for the home team in all the sports and everything else. I mean, after San Antonio won the basketball championship, the city went ecstatic.

My point is, we are all used to rooting for our 'team', whatever that may be. We do this cause it fosters team unity and most importantly, morale, which always has positive effects when competing. When another team is being louder and more spirited, we do not get angry at them, we just compete harder so we can rub it in their face, hehe (unles of course, we lose). 'Why get angry at them for being more spirited?', i think to myself.

Basically, i dont understand why foreigners can hate us for being proud of ourselves. That seems really childish. Its not like our pride is false. And when it is (like, 'we are the best and everything we do is right', which is very rare and only said by an uberingnorant/patriotic minority), why would foreigners bother themselves to care?

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Re American Pride
This, I think, is one of my problems with understanding international loathing of the US. I dont understand why they would dislike us because we are loud and proud of being americans. That seems kind of childish to me, adn i will explain:

See, it is in American culture to have team spirit. In high schools everywhere in the country pep ralleys are usually held seasonally, monthly, and sometimes even weekly. We like to root for the home team in all the sports and everything else. I mean, after San Antonio won the basketball championship, the city went ecstatic.

My point is, we are all used to rooting for our 'team', whatever that may be. We do this cause it fosters team unity and most importantly, morale, which always has positive effects when competing. When another team is being louder and more spirited, we do not get angry at them, we just compete harder so we can rub it in their face, hehe (unles of course, we lose). 'Why get angry at them for being more spirited?', i think to myself.

Basically, i dont understand why foreigners can hate us for being proud of ourselves. That seems really childish. Its not like our pride is false. And when it is (like, 'we are the best and everything we do is right', which is very rare and only said by an uberingnorant/patriotic minority), why would foreigners bother themselves to care?

Because,

1. Uberpatriotism is almost always equal to ignorance. You'd be surprised how many "AMERICA R0X0RS EVERYONES S0X0RZ" people there are, and it's MUCH more than you think.
2. It's constant.
3. When in a position that America is in - it's dangerous. Patriotism can breed intelligence, but uberpatriotism does the opposite. Americans need to be informed if they are to continue to lead the way.

[DanS]

You'd be surprised how many "AMERICA R0X0RS EVERYONES S0X0RZ" people there are, and it's MUCH more than you think.

Well, it does.

Americans need to be informed if they are to continue to lead the way.

Americans don't have a monopoly on leading the way. Perhaps others aren't as good at it , but there's nothing stopping others from doing it.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Tassadar5000


Because,

1. Uberpatriotism is almost always equal to ignorance. You'd be surprised how many "AMERICA R0X0RS EVERYONES S0X0RZ" people there are, and it's MUCH more than you think.

again, tho, why do foreigners care? They have just as many ignorant and naive people as the US. It is a fallacy to think we have more, just because we are louder. So why do they care about the ignorance in a country on the otherside of teh world when it is just as prevalent in their own?

2. It's constant.

again, who gives a ****?

3. When in a position that America is in - it's dangerous. Patriotism can breed intelligence, but uberpatriotism does the opposite. Americans need to be informed if they are to continue to lead the way.

Id wager the average american is equally as informed as the average European, and more so than the average african and asian. This means many are still mis/uninformed, but a nation can only do so much about this. We cant make our citizens sit in front of unbiased news wires 24 hours a day.

Uberpatriotism does NOT breed unintellegnce, rather, the unitellegent breed Uberpatriotism. Nothing wrong with this in my eyes. The unintellegent elsewhere do other dumb things. No use getting upset about it. seems childish to do so, in my eyes.

[Pekka]

Kramerman, well.. this is question that pops up every now and then. It's mostly cultural thing, and misunderstanding. Source for many conflicts .

You see, Americans like to cheer and chant and what ever. Nothing wrong with that. But at the same time, many think that it's 'we love our country' and 'why don't you show the same pride for your country?'.
Here comes the part that many don't get. We do. You just don't see us doing it. Televeison is full of US this US that. So as a foreigner, you are FORCED to have an opinion. Negative or positive. And when you see it every day, want it or not, many tend to get negative after a while. Just like being president. People are forced to think something, but in normal life they wouldn't care who this guy is, but now they are forced to from an opinion.

I come from a small and 'insignificant' country. But I'm very proud of it.But we have different kind of habits and traditions. In here, it's not cool to have 100 flags. We show our respect silently. Not showing it all the time, because it's a thing that should not be in our eyes every day. That's our way. But you see my point? You don't (Americans in general) know that. You will never see it on your television every day. Would you like to? I don't think so, at least not every day.

So, what happens is, there is this one country that is proud and chants all the time, and pats theirselves on their back. And this is all I see. Only one country doing this in my television. So, I am forced to form an opinion.
Then I have to think how will I judge and decide what I think of this place? But this is dangerous place.
You see, I know lots about the US. Facts or not. But you guys don't know jacks crap about my country. And I don't see anyone being interested getting to know it either. That creates a situation, where I, as a proud person of my country, can get offended. It's tricky.

At this point, Americans have not done anything wrong. But you are already wondering what people this are about, and are they so busy with their lives that they can't take an interest to your country? And, people do get offended, since they are proud of where ever they come from, most of the times at least. You know (or at least think you know) them, but they don't know you, and they are not interested to know you. That seems arrogant to you. And when ever there are negative news about the US, well you make your decisions, but now they are biased. But it only strengthens your views, even if they are now twisted.

TOO MUCH exposure. People get fed up.

I have to hear what US thinks about this and that, but do they care what I think? I can't get my voice heard. But that's ok too. But it's the fact that I still have to listen them all the time. You are forced to form an opinion. In general, people don't like to be told what to do. At least not from another side of the world they don't. So, this is why being the president of the US is a tricky job, and you won't be liked. People don't like the fact, that the US watches its own interests all over the world, telling people what to do. Nothing wrong with watching your interests, but interests are sometimes in conflict, and you can't get your voice heard. So here you think 'these dudes are watching their interests, but they don't care about MY interests'. And again, it seems arrogant. And all this.. nothing wrong. But it seems arrogant to many people. Many times they wouldn't care about it, but because the attention is so strong, they have to.

And then there is the fact, that since WWII, people at least in Europe tends to watch out carefully, when patriotism turns to nationalism, or what would be closer in the case of US, jingoism. And again, that seems arrogant. And while many people are the same in other countries, they are forced to hear and see one country doing it, as if you would care.

So I think this is just a matter of too much exposure. No ones fault really, but that's the way it is.

This is what I think of the situation, I tried to be analytical and distant, as I don't mind Americans flag waving that much. I understand, that it's their way, and they don't mean anything bad with it. But at the same time, you don't have to watch us doing it, and believe me it gets boring .

BUT at the same time when you do flag waving in your countries (via media etc) some people take that as an aggressive act. Not violent, but aggressive in a way of that really meaning 'your country sucks'.

When you here Bush talking and then all clapping their hands wildly even if he says something.. that you don't agree with, and then 'God loves the US, we're the best' stuff starts to come out, it can translate to you 'you suck'. Many Americans don't realize this, because they don't mean it, but it translates like that to many foreigners.

[Pekka]

So, in other words it's like this model walking down the street, running to you at every corner just to tell you 'I'm good looking'. What are you supposed to think of that?

and 'look at my sexy body... it's deaaaad sexyyyy. But I don't know you, don't touch me I don't want to get to know you'.

I don't mean to sound rude, but.. you have to live outside the US to understand it.

[Pekka]

The last one meant to be to what it can translate in peoples heads, not what the US is doing.

[Pekka]

So, someone asks me 'what do you think about the US' expecting complementaries and nice words. Then I ask 'what do you think about Finland' and they go 'umm what's that'. You wouldn't believe how many people who have actually heard about it goes 'yeah, isn't that part of Russia?' 'Isn't it communist?', and not knowing the facts, they make the greatest offends unknowingly. So, what are you supposed to think of that then?

And about rest of them who have heard about it goes 'yeah, you were allied with Nazis'. How original.

[Whaleboy]

You ever wonder what I'd be like if all the states in the USA leave the union, so you end up with a load of disperate countries.

Economically, I think its a pretty good idea!

[Kramerman]

thank you for your dissertation, pekka It'll take me some time to analyzr it tho, heh

[Whaleboy]

Move to Saudi Arabia, will you?

Azazel: You've had it in for me since that utilitarianism thread! What gives?

Just because I happen to recognise the fallacy of considering ones own culture better than another, doesn't mean that I'm a fan of Sharia law, public beatings, or bhurkas.

[Pekka]

Yeah sorry it was a bit long and not clearly putten out.

But you know, it goes both ways too. Many foreigners are also not realizing, that Americans don't mean 'you suck' or anything.... and that we as foreigners are uninformed too.. it's just stupid people getting fired up about nothing.

Everyone is just misunderstanding everyone else, and it's either no ones fault, or it's everyones fault.

[Pekka]

And this is just how I see it, not necessarily facts! Remember that...

And of course, there are also people that don't like the US for OTHER reasons. But those reasons are stupid, like being jealous etc..

[Velociryx]

Personal opinion below:

America has succeeded. No matter how you want to look at it, America ranks among the top, if not the very pinnacle of achievement in the modern age.

The country went from being the ultimate underdog fighting what was then the very best and strongest that the old world could throw at it and....they won a war that they had absolutely no business winning.

That sparked something in the American mindset, and it forced a certain self-evaluation that echoes through loud and clear today.

Everything that was pivotal to the victory that should not have been ours is regarded as almost sacred, specifically because it worked (for us).

Individualism - that works for us. That rugged sense of self reliance that says in no uncertain terms "I make my own future." If you don't think that played an important role in early US history, then I would put forth that you do not understand Americans or our piece of the North American continent very well.

Hard work and diligence - We work here. A lot. Longer hours with less vacation than any other industrialized country. Why? Because it worked for us. It wasn't easy beating a globe spanning empire with a thousand year head start. It took constant hard WORK. It wasn't easy to carve a new nation out of the wilderness, but we did that too. We didn't do it by going on extended holiday, we did it by busting our collective a$$es and bending the land to our will. Again, it worked, and we saw the fruits of those labors manifest themselves in our surging strength on the world stage, surpassing nations that had been around ten centuries or longer than we had.

People look at the country of my birth and wonder how it even continues to be. It is (compared to its European counterparts) so filled up with noise and violence that it often must appear to be little more than loosely guided anarchy, but it works for us. We love to fight, argue, debate loudly, and so forth. And we love our guns. That too, is a tradition left over from our earliest days. It was simple farmers with guns who defeated the armies of the Empire. Yeah, they get turned on our own citizens because we continue to support the old tradition that got us here, but it is BECAUSE of that old tradition that you won't see us giving up our guns anytime soon.

It works for us, and we're damned proud that it does and has. We celebrate that constantly, much to the chagrin of a lot of other folks around the world.

Where we get into trouble is with the assumption that because our ways have worked so well for us, we figure they must be globally exportable, so we're mystified when we step in somewhere and try to help (by bringing our methods--generally practical and time tested methods that we use ourselves--into a foriegn situation.

The problem with that is that the foriegn situation is just that....foriegn. They have their own ways....ways that often clash with, or are at odds with the stuff we're proposing, and that's where the resentment and friction comes in.

From the American POV, he's only trying to help, by demonstrating what he knows to be successful. From the foriegn perspective, the American is being insensitive to local customs and traditions, and is running roughshod over a thousand or more years of history.

When the person from the other country makes this known in a less-than-happy tone, the American response is typically exhasperation.

Least that looks like the root of it to me.

-=Vel=-

[Kramerman]

ok Pekka, now that makes sense

and i must say, the "God bless america" crap really gets on my nerves too, as it does on most Americans who are not conservative christian. Even if i wern't agnostic/atheist, why would god show the US special favor? Its like when people pray to god that their football team will win... grrr... I doubt think power from a supreme being will decide the outcome, but rather the team that works harder/ is better/ is luckier will win.

Or like Joan d' arc... why would Hod want the French to win? Why would an infite being take a side on earthly matters? she was nutz i tell ya...

[/threadjack]

[cinch]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Personal opinion below:

America has succeeded...

... at the expense of others.

And THAT'S what it comes down to.

[Kramerman]

hmmm... judging from the effort put into these posts and the quality of them, i must say this must be a subject of passion for many, from many perspectives.

also, thanks for being civil, and not turning my thread into a

">>>USA! USA! USA!

>>>Bush sucks ass! down with america!"

type of thread

[Velociryx]

Sometimes, yes Cinch. And that has been true of every country that's ever existed. Don't single the USA out for that....we're not even in the same ballpark as some of those aforementioned European nations when it comes to succeeding at the expense of others.

-=Vel=-

[cinch]

What is your opinion of the United States?

I likes it. It really brought democracy-in-action to the world stage, and for that I'll be ever-grateful.

Now, I'm not such a big fan of the megacorporations it fosters. But that's not just America's fault, every country does it. America is just the most prolific at it. Plus, I'm a fan of the socialised medicine and energy and such, so I'd prefer it if the ol' U.S. had that going for it as well.

But overall, I think America is a positive, and the people in there are just as great as everyone else.

Except for the south. The south must burn!

KIDDING!

[cinch]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sometimes, yes Cinch. And that has been true of every country that's ever existed. Don't single the USA out for that....we're not even in the same ballpark as some of those aforementioned European nations when it comes to succeeding at the expense of others.

-=Vel=-

True, exactly, yes. I actually said nearly the same thing in the post I typed at the same time you typed yours.

But as you say, I'm sure the British Empire wasn't beloved the world over during its heyday, either. Superpowers are always disliked by many, and sometimes, with good reason.

[Lonestar]

I'd have to say I approve of America

[Pekka]

Many things yes.. I don't know the reasons for individuals, but they can have many reasons..

I'm considered often stupid, because when ever I engage with someone, last time it was yesterday with buddies, that I was talking about how some companies are not raising the salaries of workers like they should, and that it at the end it hurts economy and everything else. Now while this is not necessraily a fact, it lead to '2000 euros per month IS enough' vs me alone 'no it's an insult if you work hard'. To me, you should make as much money as you deserve. You deserve it by how much you work in time and effort. And then how much the job should usually pay (so I don't say doctors and cleaners should make the same money). They always come up with 'well but you live with 2k well, so .. you're just being greedy, no one else is complaining'... yeah.. but you see my point. Many of my views are considered American and thus greedy. Then they go 'well if you're out of a job or sick, we take care of you, so you get paid less' and I counter 'yes, but I don't want that, I don't want you to take care of me if it means I have to take care about anyone else and so can't make the salaries I deserve, IF I deserve, I want the opportunity I want the chance'.. and they get angry 'well we have to pay for your etc with your tax money, you greedy bastard'.. . So, my views are not heard by default, because they think they know what it's all about. So if you identify yourself with American views, you get the same bashing as American would. Jerks are everywhere. But that's cool. Like I said, I'm the American defendor where it's tough and cold, right next to RUSSIA! YEAAA BRING IT ON!!! EOOHOOO!!111

I don't know what the hell this post had to do with this thread. I guess I wanted to show that I like America and that I was just being analytical in my former posts and that I don't have the facts about it, just speculating.

U S A ! U S A !

[Kramerman]

Except for the south. The south must burn!

no... really... it should

I'm a fan of the socialised medicine and energy

Im a fan of mixed medicine (especially pharmaceuticals. canada is way superior to us when it comes to the price of drugs... it pisses me off what they charge here)

[Velociryx]

Excellent point, Cinch....no doubt, the British Empire had more than its share of detractors at its height, and the USA is certainly not exempted from that.

As for me, my opinion is biased by living here, but yeah, I love the place. It's crazy, violent, volatile, and fosters and rewards creativity....from an artist's perspective, that's a dream come true.

-=Vel=-
(and I'll ignore the comments re: the SOUTH!)

-Columbia, SC....as south as south gets!

[Kuciwalker]

What Pekka said makes a lot of sense

I think that we aren't so wrong being proud of our freedom and democracy. Despite the fact that we are the youngest civilization in the world, we also have the oldest constitution in the world, and the most stable government (we've lasted the longest). We pride ourselves on smooth transition of power - and were embarrassed by the 2000 election. We have a strong sense that we are right, but we usually recognize when we've done something wrong. We are somewhat stuck-up, at least in terms of knowing the rest of the world.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by elijah
You ever wonder what I'd be like if all the states in the USA leave the union, so you end up with a load of disperate countries.

Economically, I think its a pretty good idea!

Can I have some of what you're smoking?

[Spiffor]

Vel :
I wholly agree with what you said in your first post The problem doesn't come from the fact that you Americans are proud of your achievments (because these achievements are great indeed). The problem happens when you are exporting your methods and way of life while genuinely thinking they are good universally.

That's where the clash comes from IMHO. At the beginning of my argument earlier in this thread, I wanted to use ubernationalism as an illustration of this "It has worked for us so it must work everywhere" mentality. But I was much less eloquent than you.

Another problem is that, whether you want it or not, you are always exporting your values. As Pekka puts it, foreigners cannot avoid knowing about the US, knowing about the US' absolute self confidence, and forming opinions about it.

Despite an increase in ubernationalism within the US since Sept. 11, there seems to be some hints of a change in the American behaviour abroad. American cultural comapnies are beginning to invest in foreign made movies for foreign markets, which will hopefully result in the end of the flood of American mass-entertainment product in profit of a more international bouquet. The US troops, when capturing Iraqi cities, avoided to replace the Iraqi flag by the American flag. BTST (By the same token), the American soldiers recieved a small guide about Iraqi traditions, and how to respect them.
There is still a long way to go for the Americans to understand that foreign cultures are different, but the recent hints give some hope (which contrast with the internal chest-thumping btw).

[Harovan]

I don't care about Yanks bragging and flag waving. Nobody forces me to look at it or listen to it, I always can turn my back to them and go my way (well, or ignore their threads, for that matter). I find it hard to believe, that this is the reason to the poor reputation, that America suffers these days. Methinks it's rather the aggressive and violent politics of the Bush regime, what raises resentment against the United States. It's the "who's not with us, is against us", "love it or leave it" and nonsense like this. As a prove of this thesis may serve, that Americans always were flag waving Uberpatriots (well at least as long as I can think), but never their reputation was as bad as it's now. Not even during the Vietnam war. Bush succeeded to turn the huge sympathy bonus he had after Sept 11th into the opposite, in only one and a half year.

As for my personal opinion, I don't have anything against the United States as a country or Americans as people (heaven forbid, at the countrary). But I truly hate Bush and his neocon clique.