July 6, 2003, 20:08
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#121
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Deity
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
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Originally posted by Kramerman
and i must say, the "God bless america" crap really gets on my nerves too, as it does on most Americans who are not conservative christian. Even if i wern't agnostic/atheist, why would god show the US special favor?
[/threadjack]
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God was quite clearly English in the 19th century, but it is also obvious that he must have emigrated to the US at some point in the early 20th.
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"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
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July 7, 2003, 02:01
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#122
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Settler
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Kramerman
Re American Pride
This, I think, is one of my problems with understanding international loathing of the US. I dont understand why they would dislike us because we are loud and proud of being americans.
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I have to let Tocqueville do the explaining:
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All free nations are vainglorious, but national pride is not displayed by all in the same manner. The Americans, in their intercourse with strangers, appear impatient of the smallest censure and insatiable of praise. The most slender eulogy is acceptable to them, the most exalted seldom contents them; they unceasingly harass you to extort praise, and if you resist their entreaties, they fall to praising themselves. It would seem as if, doubting their own merit, they wished to have it constantly exhibited before their eyes.
Their vanity is not only greedy, but restless and jealous; it will grant nothing, while it demands everything, but is ready to beg and to quarrel at the same time.
If I say to an American that the country he lives in is a fine one, "Ay," he replies, "there is not its equal in the world." If I applaud the freedom that its inhabitants enjoy, he answers: "Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it."… At length I leave him to the contemplation of himself; but he returns to the charge and does not desist till he has got me to repeat all I had just been saying. It is impossible to conceive a more troublesome or more garrulous patriotism; it wearies even those who are disposed to respect it.
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"And when it is (like, 'we are the best and everything we do is right', which is very rare and only said by an uberingnorant/patriotic minority), why would foreigners bother themselves to care?"
Rare? You semm to have an entire industry dedicated to the "we're the best in the world" slogan.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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July 7, 2003, 02:35
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#123
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
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Originally posted by elijah
Azazel: You've had it in for me since that utilitarianism thread! What gives?
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You hold one of the positions I dislike the most in modern thinking. These are:
-Libertarianism.
-Moral Relativism.
-Multiculturalism in the moral relativist context (i.e. I have no problem with people being different in tastes or preferences, But I don't think that people should be organized according to that, or destroy a basic fabric of relationships in a modern, advanced human society because of it.)
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Just because I happen to recognise the fallacy of considering ones own culture better than another, doesn't mean that I'm a fan of Sharia law, public beatings, or bhurkas. 
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Why not? If you say they're morally equivalent, what makes you choose one sort of life over the other? personal taste? 
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July 7, 2003, 03:09
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#124
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Prince
Local Time: 23:09
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Posts: 884
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Tocqueville -
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Quote:
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Their vanity is not only greedy, but restless and jealous; it will grant nothing, while it demands everything, but is ready to beg and to quarrel at the same time.
If I say to an American that the country he lives in is a fine one, "Ay," he replies, "there is not its equal in the world." If I applaud the freedom that its inhabitants enjoy, he answers: "Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it."… At length I leave him to the contemplation of himself; but he returns to the charge and does not desist till he has got me to repeat all I had just been saying.
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I think most anyone who knows americans in this day and age would have to disagree with Tocqueville's observations.
Americans do demand a lot, but they are also charitable...
Also, very, very few americans would ever say anything remotely like this,
"Freedom is a fine thing, but few nations are worthy to enjoy it."…
on contrare, Americans have a problem with WANTING to share it 
I like Pekka's, Azazel's, and even Spiff's analysis better (as in i htink they are more accurate)
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July 7, 2003, 03:16
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#125
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Settler
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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"Americans have a problem with WANTING to share it"
Ask people in latin america about that.
Apart from that, Tocqueville's observation is still correct. Your loud nationalism is highly annoying. That you don't percieve it that way doesn't change the perception for non-americans.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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July 7, 2003, 03:18
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#126
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Settler
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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"Americans do demand a lot, but they are also charitable... "
I think you misunderstood the issue. It's very difficult to find Americans praising other countries, unless they play an american poodle.
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“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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July 7, 2003, 03:40
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#127
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Vilnius, Lithuania
Posts: 3,565
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Right on, Hersh. Most Americans I've met didn't even bother to be interested in things they could respect about my country.
OTOH, they craved for praise on their most recent purchase of a pickup truck. 
__________________
Originally posted by Serb:Please, remind me, how exactly and when exactly, Russia bullied its neighbors?
Originally posted by Ted Striker:Go Serb ! :doitnow!:
Originally posted by Pekka:If it was possible to capture the essentials of Sepultura in a dildo, I'd attach it to a bicycle and ride it up your azzes.
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July 7, 2003, 04:47
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#128
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King
Local Time: 08:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: the contradiction is filled with holes...
Posts: 1,398
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I think it's a big country
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I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are still missing.
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July 9, 2003, 09:40
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#129
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Chieftain
Local Time: 14:39
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 45
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Re: What is your opinion of the United States?
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Kramerman
But this seems to simple... this doesnt seem to explain why so many people's opinion of the US has seemed to plummit over the years. Or is this all just my imagination? fed by shows like the one i saw?
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The reason so few people like America is because their arrogant government thinks the rest of the world is their servant. They act like they are the only country that matters and they don't follow the standards they set of other countries (e.g. They say Iraq had WoMDs so they can attack even though America has WoMDs) etc.
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Unfairly Banned at Civfanatics twice...
To protest the war I am using the UN Flag - Howard has said most Australians are for the war so clearly I am not an Aussie.
Last edited by Elden; July 9, 2003 at 11:31.
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July 9, 2003, 10:49
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#130
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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Quote:
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God was quite clearly English in the 19th century, but it is also obvious that he must have emigrated to the US at some point in the early 20th.
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Krammerman - I too am sick of "God Bless America." I've never liked it, but it's everywhere now, and it turns my stomach. Luckily, I have a remote control.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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July 9, 2003, 10:53
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#131
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Emperor
Local Time: 00:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The cities of Orly and Nowai
Posts: 4,228
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Quote:
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I think you misunderstood the issue. It's very difficult to find Americans praising other countries, unless they play an american poodle.
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actually, it's difficult to find Americans praising other countries, even if they do play an American poodle: vanatu, for instance. or skorea in the past. or pakistan. or turkey in the past.
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B♭3
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July 9, 2003, 11:04
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#132
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
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But this seems to simple... this doesnt seem to explain why so many people's opinion of the US has seemed to plummit over the years. Or is this all just my imagination? fed by shows like the one i saw?
It has a lot to do with American propensity to air our dirty laundry for the world to see, and also an pathological focus on everything US by non-Americans.
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I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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July 9, 2003, 11:04
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#133
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Emperor
Local Time: 08:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: A pub.
Posts: 3,161
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July 9, 2003, 11:06
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#134
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
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Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
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actually, it's difficult to find Americans praising other countries, even if they do play an American poodle: vanatu, for instance. or skorea in the past. or pakistan. or turkey in the past.
You forget to mention that it's difficult to find Americans criticizing other countries as well.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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July 9, 2003, 11:07
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#135
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Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
You forget to mention that it's difficult to find Americans criticizing other countries as well.
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A Frenchman wouldn't buy this statement.
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July 9, 2003, 11:08
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#136
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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That doesn't count. 
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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July 9, 2003, 11:08
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#137
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Not your daddy's Benjamins
Posts: 10,737
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The exception proves the rule in this case.
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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July 9, 2003, 11:08
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#138
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Moderator
Local Time: 05:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: of Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,664
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True, but the French are in a special category....they give at least as good as they get....
-=Vel=-
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The list of published books grows . If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out , head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence ." Help support Candle'Bre , a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project .
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July 9, 2003, 11:10
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#139
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Moderator
Local Time: 05:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: of Candle'Bre
Posts: 8,664
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Talk about your rapid responses!
-=Vel=-
__________________
The list of published books grows . If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out , head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence ." Help support Candle'Bre , a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project .
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July 9, 2003, 11:12
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#140
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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Yeah, we were ON that one.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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July 9, 2003, 11:14
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#141
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Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 06:09
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Posts: 11,117
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Amazing...
Well, I know, that the French share this point of view, at least since the day when I tried to communicate in English in a hotel in Paris.
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July 9, 2003, 11:15
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#142
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Moderator
Local Time: 05:09
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Oh.....we and the French have a love-hate relationship. They pretend they hate us, and we think they're cute when they act mad.... 
-=Vel=-
__________________
The list of published books grows . If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out , head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence ." Help support Candle'Bre , a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project .
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July 9, 2003, 11:18
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#143
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
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Join Date: Dec 1969
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Well, I know, that the French share this point of view, at least since the day when I tried to communicate in English in a hotel in Paris.
And they wonder why US tourism is down to France. 
__________________
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
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July 9, 2003, 11:20
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#144
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Deity
Local Time: 00:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Underwater no one can hear sharks scream
Posts: 11,096
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
And they wonder why US tourism is down to France.
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I wonder why they thought Woody Allen would things?
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July 9, 2003, 11:20
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#145
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Deity
Local Time: 01:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Kneel before Grog!
Posts: 17,978
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I'd bet French toursim is down to the US too, Dan.
Can't prove it, though.
-Arrian
__________________
grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!
The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.
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July 9, 2003, 11:24
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#146
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Deity
Local Time: 00:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 27,637
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Why doesn't an American start a "Do You, As An American Citizen, Really Give A Damn What The Rest Of The World Thinks?" poll.
__________________
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
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July 9, 2003, 11:27
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#147
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Settler
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
You forget to mention that it's difficult to find Americans criticizing other countries as well.
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It's incredibly easy to find one among Americans abroad.
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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July 9, 2003, 11:28
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#148
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Civ4: Colonization Content Editor
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 11,117
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Quote:
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Originally posted by DanS
Well, I know, that the French share this point of view, at least since the day when I tried to communicate in English in a hotel in Paris.
And they wonder why US tourism is down to France.
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You encounter amazing things when you are in a foreign land and try to talk in a seemingly common, but unliked language. The same happened to me, when I tried to communicate in Russian in a grocery store in Estonia. They simply claimed not to understand me, although my Russian is fairly good. It took me to say the word "Scheiße!" in German (would be censored here ), and they realized, that I'm not a Russian and served me, btw in perfect Russian.
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July 9, 2003, 11:33
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#149
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Moderator
Local Time: 05:09
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Join Date: Apr 1999
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Posts: 8,664
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Now Hersh....why would Americans be abroad. We know nobody likes us anyway....
Sir Ralph....that's a good story....very illustrative of the point (not to mention, how ironic! After discovering that you weren't Russian after all, THEN they break out the Russian language....)
-=Vel=-
__________________
The list of published books grows . If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out , head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence ." Help support Candle'Bre , a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project .
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July 9, 2003, 11:35
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#150
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Settler
Local Time: 06:09
Local Date: November 2, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 0
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Quote:
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Originally posted by Velociryx
Now Hersh....why would Americans be abroad. We know nobody likes us anyway....
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The bigger mystery is, why do they subject themselves to atrocities like Sound of Music?
I have a suspicion you are using us as some sort of extraterritorial correctional facility...
__________________
“Now we declare… that the law-making power or the first and real effective source of law is the people or the body of citizens or the prevailing part of the people according to its election or its will expressed in general convention by vote, commanding or deciding that something be done or omitted in regard to human civil acts under penalty or temporal punishment….” (Marsilius of Padua, „Defensor Pacis“, AD 1324)
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