Drone Negotiations - Page 2

Vev · July 9, 2003, 10:38

or "Claire Forlani's Solidarity"

EZRhino · July 9, 2003, 18:16

Do we have planetary networks? If so we should begin building probe teams to safeguard our cities against spies. At the moment our weakness seems well known on the forums, but exactly how weak we are, they can currently only speculate. If they infiltrate our datalinks, not only can they dictate diplomacy from a position of strength, but it will also give them more credence to act aggressively against us

Also, We should endeavor probe the drones datalinks at our earliest possible convenience.

Vev · July 9, 2003, 20:42

We are currently researching the tech to give us probes "Planetary Networks" and Planned economy too!

Googlie · July 9, 2003, 23:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Vev
Still, it would be handy to recall why buster joined this ACDG and see if our philosophy are compatible. If I can recall, he wanted to show someone how to play a builder faction?

Vev - I think that is key and "right on the money"

Buster entered this game to use it as a learning experience for his buddy, Triped. He wanted either Morgan or the Drones - both builder factions. Sparta and the Cult were still available if he wanted to tutor in a momentum fashion.

Perusal of PBEM logs would, I think, show that Mark, Mongoose and Shadowlord3 are all builder players. I don't have enough data on main_brain or the others.

So the discussion should be:

Are the Hive and the Drones an ideal, long-term fit?

If sufficient reasons can be presented, then discuss the terms of a Permapact .....

...if only a handful, then go for a commerce pact (just for the added commerce income) and trade techs etc as you would any Treaty partner .......

...... and if none, then prepare for early battle to clear and secure your expansion space.

They shouldn't be able to out-tech the Hive, although they can outbuild you. Right now they shouldn't outgrow you either - not until they can run Dem and Planned, and build creches for the pop-boom (which you can't without going GA)

G.

Kody · July 9, 2003, 23:51

I wonder if you are going to eat those words several turns down the track. However, since the turns are going so slowly it's likely we would have all forgotten about this.

Here's the full picture showing our colony pod too.
http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Kody/Temp.jpg

Kody

Googlie · July 10, 2003, 10:24

I have asked the Drones to speed up their deliberation process

Kody · July 10, 2003, 10:25

That is appreciated. When can we expect a reply?

Kody

Googlie · July 10, 2003, 11:22

*Chuckles* - I don't know - I asked in their forum.

They'll prolly now deliberate what reply to send to me.

To stall for a turn (ie, ask for more time, meanwhile not move your CP or their scout but otherwise complete your move) really isn't an option for you as that precious turn advantage is then lost as regards getting your next base up and running

Of course you could always change Voltairograd's production from a CP to another scout, and rush it in 1 turn for 22 ec's, just for added security - and move it's current garrison out to join the colony pod for extra defense ..... but that's only if they choose the "get lost" option, I guess

G.

Googlie · July 10, 2003, 12:56

See my comments in the Hive Turn Update thread

Googlie · July 10, 2003, 14:45

Given that:

1) it's kody's downtime right now

and

2) Kody would post the e-mail contents anyway for general discussion

and

3) the timeline is now getting close to its 48 hours (and I'd rather not promulgate a further extension beyond 24 hours from now)

here is the (unedited) text of the communication from Mongoose of the Drones to Comrade Kody of the Hive:

*******************************

Kody,

I blush to confess that Drone deliberations have been little and inconclusive. I don't know if it's due to the summer holiday season, to Buster's temporary absence or to an odd alignment in the stars, but few of our members have yet expressed their opinions on the Pact proposal.

What views have been expressed support a Pact of some nature, but have reservations regarding the land issue. We have little land compared to our aspirations. You will notice form astronomical observation that we are pressed up rather rudely against the north polar region of Chiron. No northern expansion route is available to us.

Therefore, we seek to negotiate a presence on your continent in the general area north of Sunny Mesa sufficient to support two or three bases .

Anticipating that there may be substantial Hive reluctance to accepting that proposal and in the interests of continuing play in as speedy a manner as can be, I present a temporary and temporizing proposal:

Let us treaty for the time being.

We are willing to exchange technology. We have Industrial Base and Industrial Economics that you lack. (or did during our last turn) We will trade them for two of the three techs you have that we lack. Kindly present options. I presume that Doctrine Loyalty is one of the three. Which are the other two? Loyalty does not interest us as much as others you might have. We are particularly interested in Information Networks.

As we negotiate, we will withdraw our exploration party to the north to re-embark on our unity foil and to seek other (hopefully uninhabited!) lands.

Sincerely,

Mongoose

*********************************

G.

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 15:56

Ok my initial reaction. It makes sense that the Drones may not want to commit to leave the entire continent to us if it is true that they don't have much room for futher expansion. What it means to us is that the Drones will remain a big threat to us no matter if our current relationship is treaty, truce, or non-permanent pact. We need to prepare because there WILL be war between us for lands. We should expand to the north/west as soon as possible. So after Jamski Clovek, the next two bases should be HongHu KongHu and Rokossovky CMC HQ. If possible, we should build a sensor on both base site in anticipation of future probe and war threat.

Second, it's clear that they are working on making up for they -20% research penalties by the ME SP and wanting to get tech IN from us. Not sure what this means to us in terms of what tech we could exchange with them. IB and IE will be useful to us. I do believe tech exchange is mutual benefitable for both sides. How soon will we get PN? We really do need to get those probs since they'll be trying probing us for their lack of research abilities.

Their commitment of withdrawing the scout is a good gesture although it could be because they believe that it's overpowered by us and do not anticipate the scout is a threat to us. We should build on this in our effort to set up the Jamski Clovek base as soon as possible.

Voltaire · July 10, 2003, 16:00

After the last Drone response, we will keep the Colony Pod where it stands, delaying it for a few more turns will not cause us any serious harm. Also I am giving an order of general mobilization. We will in no way let the Drones lay a foot on out rightful land. That IS absolutely out of the questing, as such we must colonise the west of the continent before the Drones do.

This message is intended for Hive members only, we will handle the Drones more diplomatically, stall for time.

I sugggest we get them to move back their scout patrol and pertend we're deliberating whether or not to let them colonize our continet while we pump out Colony Pods and military units to ensure we get there first.

Alternatively, the only way I would agree to letting the Drones have bases on our continent would be if they agree to a Permanent Pact; even then it would be an if.

-Chairman Voltaire

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 16:01

When will be the next turn chat? I believe this is kind of important for Chairman and Marshal to be present or at least leave their directions.

Voltaire · July 10, 2003, 16:02

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
When will be the next turn chat? I believe this is kind of important for Chairman and Marshal to be present or at least leave their directions.

We can do it now, I'm online.

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 16:07

Chairman, you are always on top of things. It's a great relief for us to see our great nation is in good hands.

Unfortunetaly I don't have messenger at work. Also, do you want to wait for more comrades to weigh in this issue, Chairman?

Voltaire · July 10, 2003, 16:09

Quote:

Originally posted by HongHu
Chairman, you are always on top of things. It's a great relief for us to see our great nation is in good hands.

Unfortunetaly I don't have messenger at work. Also, do you want to wait for more comrades to weigh in this issue, Chairman?

I will wait. Given the importance of the issue at hand having advisers at the turnchat is crucial.

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 16:11

I agree that the colony pod should remain where it is for one turn, so that it keeps outside of the Drone scout's view. We could agree to trade tech with them and tell them that we are currently discussing if any possibility of long term pact still exist. But to show their sincerety we ask that they act as they agreed, ie, withdraw the scout, and we agree to ensure its peaceful withdraw.

Vander · July 10, 2003, 16:21

If (and that a big IF) we sign a permanent pact with the drones, it would help our relations (and the signing of the pact) if we allowed them to have two base here. Of course, two is the MAXIMUM number of bases that we can allow.

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 16:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Voltaire

I sugggest we get them to move back their scout patrol and pertend we're deliberating whether or not to let them colonize our continet while we pump out Colony Pods and military units to ensure we get there first.

-Chairman Voltaire

I agree. This is very important. I'm sure the Drones are doing the same thing attempting to get their feet on our land before we can get there. One good thing is that their production may be tight up by the ME SP a little and if we give them IN they might want to build their network note if they feel that we'll let them keep peaceful development.

We need to see if we could use our money to rush build a couple colony pods.

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 16:25

Quote:

Originally posted by Vander
If (and that a big IF) we sign a permanent pact with the drones, it would help our relations (and the signing of the pact) if we allowed them to have two base here. Of course, two is the MAXIMUM number of bases that we can allow.

Well there is no way we should let them build base at the two future base site of ours. We should prolong this neogotiation until we get the good sites.

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 16:27

What is the benefit of a permanent pact with the Drones other than that the players are extremely good? I would like to hear some arguments for it because I myself is not familiar with the SMAX factions.

Kody · July 10, 2003, 18:02

I'm up I'll formulate the reply then.

Thanks Googlie, I needed to know the reaction of whether my team mates would be willing for a certain proposal, but now I know the answer due to their responses here. The turn will be up relatively soon.

Kody

Kody · July 10, 2003, 19:54

Email

As may be. I cannot compel people to post, nor assume authority that they do not grant.

>
> I will shortly.
>
> I'm determining what information to tell you and what hold back. A pact
> would have simplifed things for me.
>
> Kody
>
>
> > Kody,
> >
> > I see you passed the turn. Response to my letter?
> >
> > Mongoose
>

Kody · July 10, 2003, 19:59

Email
I am pleased to hear that you are interested in a pact. However,
disappointed that no decision was reached. The Hive is also in favour of a
pact with an 85.71% vote for a pact. This is mainly due to the fact our
land masses are so close and anything less will likely result wasteful
squabbling. If we decide on a pact we have to then discuss the degree of
the pact. The hive has already made some decisions on what pacts we will
agree to and my response should be quick.

My insight into the way Googlie set the map up is that the factions have a
roughly equal landmass. He mentioned that one faction had stunted growth
due to lack of land however a land bridge was added to allow them access
to a neighbouring island. If you are truly lacking in land area I suggest
you look for possible land bridges.

I believe Googlie in his wisdom foresaw that if the hive was aggressive
and placed in the centre of our continent we could have expanded westward
and there would be a possibility of an early invasion into your area.
Consequently, we were placed such that we would be assured to fill our
continent around the time your defences would be well prepared on your
side of the channel. Understand that the hive needs to expand west into
our continent as we were placed on the very eastern edge.

We have already discussed the implications of allowing your bases in our
heartland. If there is a disproportionate allocation of land and if we
have already agreed on a permanent pact aimed at a co-operative victory we
will allow you to build bases on our continent. In any other case I will
have to bring this matter up for debate and that may take days. We do not
have an excess of land and consequently what you ask is too much at this
early stage. From what I have seen of the expansion of drones in other
games, from the number of votes you have and assuming you didn't start at
the edge of your continent. It is quite possible that you have already
covered a continent the same size as ours.

For now let us aim to maximise our respective technologies. I have sent
forth a treaty and included is information networks. You were correct in
guessing that one of the others is Doctrine Loyalty, the third is Applied
Physics. We are currently researching Planetary Networks and will be
willing to share that too.

Since we are closer to finishing Planetary Networks than you are, I
suggest choosing mobility so we can jointly aim for flexibility after
wealth. The Hive also feels it needs to find more land area to colonise
too. Furthermore, the pirates will get a territory advantage if we do not
oppose them. I hope that if we do decide to team together we will be able
to share any new land that we find.

If you trust us you can give us both your techs next turn. Then the
hive has the possibility of industrial automation after finishing
planetary networks. We agree to give you planetary networks as soon as we
finish it, and if we are able to choose industrial automation we will
immediately give it to you if you give us flexibility when you achieve it.

If you wish our conquer technologies I will need to discuss this with my
faction as we have only agreed to a treaty. While unpacted these
technologies could be used against us.

We are appreciative that your scout will be leaving our area. Please
ignore the large number of military units moving towards your scout. While
waiting for your decision I decided to take certain precautions.

Kody

Kody · July 10, 2003, 20:39

I hope I was not too aggressive in this response.

The first issue I was trying to address was the misconception that we have lots of land. They have moved halfway across our continent without encountering anything. I wanted to make them understand why we would reject their proposal. Otherwise it would seem we're trying to keep an advantage over them and may decide to turn on them later.

To offset the idea that we are weak and forestall any threats they may decide to make from such a conception. I placed some emphasis on our military and made it clear that we are strong enough and willing to deal with them as enemies.

Also I indirectly raised the possibility of a permanent pact without saying we are aiming for it.

Lastly, I have placed a little test to see how much they trust us. If they give us both their industrial techs straight away it likely means they trust us enough to believe our promises. That would bode well for a long term pact.

Kody

Vev · July 10, 2003, 21:52

I eagerly wait for their reply.

Kody · July 10, 2003, 21:58

I was thinking it might be useful to only trade for techs that we absolutely need. So ask for industrial encomics and if the drones aren't already researching information networks we only trade them planetary networks.

That way we're speeding up our tech research rate as we're skipping a few of the intermediate techs. Tech costs increase the more techs you have.

Kody

Snowflake · July 10, 2003, 22:33

So did you and Chairman do it, Kody? Who else is in the turn chat afterall? I'm sorry I missed it.

Could you post the turn in the turn update and/or turn chat thread?

Kody · July 11, 2003, 01:00

I was doing some calculations. We can get industrial automation fastest if we don't do any tech trading. Then the turn just before when we get planetary networks. We ask them to offer us industrial economics. We gain planetary networks switch to any tech, then accept their offer of industrial economics. Since we just started researching a new tech the lost tech will be very low.

Tech cost if we trade for industrial base and industrial economics beforehand.
192

Tech cost if we have industrial economics before we choose a new tech
143

Tech cost if we get industrial economics after we choose a new tech
107

As you can see the cost to research industrial automation is almost halved using this method.

The drones might be able to do the same thing. Reduce their tech costs by skipping certain techs. I'm not sure how fast their research rate is, but if they go for mobility and then flexibility. They could might be able to get flexibility around the same time we get industrial automation.

The tech trade would hence be.
Hive -> Planetary networks -> Drones
Drones -> Industrial Economics -> Hive
Hive -> Industrial Automation -> Drones
Drones -> Flexibility -> Hive

Pursuing this method the hive and drones may be able to get key techs much faster than the other factions that just trade all their techs. Ofcourse it requires a certain amount of trust between our factions.

Kody

_________________________________________________

On another note if we don't immediately trade techs our power graph will be deceptively low, and it is unlikely that anyone will figure out we've met another faction.

Should I offer this idea to the drones? It may help them in their decision.

Kody
__________________________________________________ _

I was looking at the previous turn save file. They weren't running freemarket at that stage. It may be safe to assume that they recently acquired Industrial economics.

This means they shouldn't lose too much tech if we convince them to switch to mobility.

Kody

Kody · July 11, 2003, 04:35

Email

"Since we are closer to finishing Planetary Networks than you are, I
suggest choosing mobility so we can jointly aim for flexibility after
wealth."

I have to apologise for the flawed reasoning behind my previous email. I
forgot about the way accumulated tech is able to be carried on when you
trade for a tech your researching.

Kody