Drone Negotiations - Page 8

Kody · July 31, 2003, 02:42

Unsent Post to Embassy - Opinions wanted.

As the trading between the Hive and Drones appears to be proceeding fruitfully, searching for other allies is not an urgent consideration for the Hive. Consequently, flexibility while still important is no longer our top priority after Industrial Automation. Recent talks in the hive support biogenetics as the next tech to aim for, with the longer term goal of lifting restrictions.

It appears that the Hive will be interested in pursuing separate beelines, with the drones. However, it would be useful to further discuss longer term goals than lifting restrictions. Perhaps the hive will do flexibility after biogenetics to go for MMI.

There is also the issue of tech sharing. We would like to open up full tech sharing between our factions as originally described in the permi-pact document sent to the drones. This is so we can exploit joint research fully.

The restriction lifting techs and the techs required to research them will probably be needed by the hive. Whereas it is possible some of the techs that the hive researches will be skipped by the drones. This may mean the hive will want more of the techs the drones have than the drones want of the hive, in the case of split tech path researching.

Conversely, the hive wishes to hold off getting industrial base as long as possible even though it is part of the current tech deal we are currently executing. Also social psych and ethical calculus may not be immediately required in the short run.

To summarise, at this time the hive wishes to pursue biogenetics, open full tech trading, and do separate tech path joint research.

Kody

Snowflake · July 31, 2003, 10:13

Sounds good to me. Only one minor question. Should we try to convince them that what we are doing is also quite beneficial to them?

Kody · August 1, 2003, 07:56

HongHu, to make the joint tech research work we need to organise how we do the research. That means if they want to do it, then they will have to agree on something.

I don't really need to build a strong argument as they should be able to see this already.

Kody

Snowflake · August 1, 2003, 09:31

Ok. I was just a little hesitated that this sentence: "This may mean the hive will want more of the techs the drones have than the drones want of the hive, in the case of split tech path researching." could cause them misunderstood that it would be not fair to them or something. But you are right. If they'll do it, that means they've already understood it.

Kody · August 1, 2003, 10:39

I guess I should have been more careful with my wording.

Kody
_______________________________________________

Quote:

Those pictures were from our turn update. The hive uses the labels so when we make the task lists of each unit everyone knows which units are tasked to do what.

Hive members can also analyse and comment on the tasks of certain units by referring to specific units by their label. It helps alot as we know exactly what each unit will be doing sometimes several turns into the future.

We have found this system extremely useful. When we started pre-planning our moves and getting several people checking the next turn moves. The minor mistakes that cropped up now and again stopped occuring.

That whole talk in the public forum about moving some of our energies from spam into game discussion actually occured.

Kody

Trying to dispel the idea that the hive is badly organised. Also letting them know we probably won't be a push over if it came to war as we're obviously analysing the game in depth.

Kody

Snowflake · August 1, 2003, 11:19

Naw, no worries. Looks like buster already thought about the number of techs shared issue. In response to you he talked about "extended credit lines" and such which makes sense.

It's always good to build up our reputation.

Jamski · August 1, 2003, 13:17

So, are we going to declare Vendetta on the Drones next turn or what?

-Jam

Snowflake · August 1, 2003, 13:22

Jamski, Why do you always have to deliever surprises like that?

Kody · August 19, 2003, 23:38

Work in progress

We would have liked the WP, but to admit honestly I doubted you guys would have agreed to give it to us for anything. The land raising plan to create the inland sea will be delayed for several decades. Unless you intend to provide the formers.

University has gotten IA last turn. Pirates have gotten industrial base. We suspect that the pirate cycon faction are doing tech leapfrogging. Within the next few turn I believe that the other
factions will all have IA.

Any word on the tech planning, either which techs will be researched, or if we're going to advanced beyond individual tech deals.

I've also been prompted to nudge you again for that joint-victory pact.

This post may be carbon copied to mongoose if there is no reply after 24 hours, as I suspect that many drones are now avoiding this forum like a spam plague.

Vev · August 20, 2003, 01:08

The message should begin with a bright positive note. Focus more on their success. Don't want to appear like sore losers.

Kody · September 6, 2003, 10:52

Yeah I know it was pretty late when I wrote that. Fixed all the errors in the post I put in the drone forum.

Anyway the real reason why I decided to post here was to draw notice to new developments in the ambassador thread at the hive embassy.

Snowflake · September 6, 2003, 13:52

Buster's message does sound very positive.

Snowflake · December 1, 2003, 22:41

My message at the Drones:

Quote:

Since the Hive is currently still restructuring I don't know if and when we will have a new Ambassador to the Drones during the time when Kody is not in the Hive forum. Right now I'm trying to fill in each and every position where something needs to be done.

So anyway I would like to convey the Hive's request for help from the Drones.

During the last turn the Hive had met the Data Angels and Roze declared war on us. She already sent in an aggressive force toward us that consists merely one 2-2-1 unit. However people in the Hive feels that it is crucial the Hive's defensive force be mordenized in order to fense any future potential attacks from Roze as well as the university. We will not seek transfering of HEC from you in order to honor your agreement with the CyCon. However we would like to respectively request that our pact brother the Drone help us with a prototyped unit with 3 armor at your earliest convenience. We understand that the production and transit of a prototyped unit will take some time compare to the instaneousness of tech trading. Therefore we would appreciate if the Drones would give this request a relatively high priorty.

Comrade HongHu

Snowflake · December 1, 2003, 22:42

Kody's suggestion. Very good one.

Quote:

Notice that one of the hive bases is within 3 squares of a drone base. This means the unit can be turned over to the hive and then turned back to the drones during the hive turn.

If that is done the pirates will be unable to see the exchange that has occured, and it will be more of a shock to see us building +3 armor infantry.

Micha · December 2, 2003, 18:16

Yeah, that´s really good!

They´ll never know what struck them! *muahahahaha*

Snowflake · December 3, 2003, 20:54

message from buster

Quote:

Was going to suggest it - yes we could send over a proto from Anvil if you make the road.

Btw we are now at size 35 & will go to 42 next turn with two new cities, which is same as Angels (provided they do not grow in the meantime) meaning elections next turn is still too early (unless Angels shrink).

However two turns from now we should be at minimum 47 and bigger than Angels.

Snowflake · December 12, 2003, 16:29

Buster:

Quote:

Turn done - were now at size 42 and equal to Angels. If election is called prior to Angels turn there will be three candidates - if election is called after (and they grow) it will be you and Angels.

On our next turn (2149) we will grow by another 7 to 49 and so could call elections with candidates to choose between being you and us. Suggest we do that.

Uni has landed their scout on our turf we will send them a notice to move out. If they don't we will arrange to bribe the unit & so declare war. This will also leave us free to probe their ass off in case trade negotiations go wrong.

Snowflake · December 12, 2003, 16:34

Kody:

Quote:

It's suggested that the drones call the election and vote for themselves. I assume that your new votes actually count after the start of the turn? It'll be a bit of a concidence that the hive calls an election when the drones just reach the right size.

It's suggested that both our factions make an pretence of securing votes from other factions. It'll be interesting in flushing out loyalties or grudges that we weren't aware of.

As for who wins, I'm more inclined to see the drones win. Simply because the infiltration data won't be checked by the Hive and I feel that someone checking the infiltration data will be more important than the extra trade. However, right now I don't think it will matter too much either way.

I do believe data angels are actually slot 7 and drones are slot 6. So the data angels turn is after yours. This is good news as the AI will be unlikely to call an election until your next turn. Looks like governership is nearly in the bag for one of us.
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On a different topic, I'm wondering whether the hive should just start sprawling like crazy. It would appear that golden pop booming isn't being run properly, and in attempting to achieve it there have been many muck ups that wouldn't have occurred if it hadn't been tried.

I'm starting to think a simpler strategy of building more bases and building many formers would be a more prudent strategy to pursue.

The main problem with that is while it increases production it fails to improve the hive's tech rate. I believe tech rate is paramount in our current situation and I know if someone would just pull the pop booming off properly tech will not be a problem at all for the Hive. The hive's tech rate achieved 1 tech every 4 turns in turn 2148 when the simulator was played 5 years forward from 2143.

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Finally on a issue is to do with the university-cycon trading.

I personally think the cycon are trying to chase a white elephant with that tech trade. No doubt the university will want to delay tech trading until after they get environment economics and will feel they don't need to hurry to get applied physics as they will have several years to trade the tech from any of the other factions. Also the cycon have given a pretty poor trade offer.

The hive shouldn't let themselves be persuaded to delay tech research if the cycon beg for more time on an uncertain tech trade.

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Anyway, we'll need to slip you ecological engineering soon after we get it. What have you been telling the others on how much the hive owes you techwise?

Can you think of a good excuse for the hive giving the drones ecological engineering? We probably need to get the stories straight as the cycon will be asking why the drones immediately got ecological engineering from the Hive.

It may not be needed until you decide to start making boreholes, and you might be thinking of just keeping research costs low.

Snowflake · December 12, 2003, 16:35

buster

Quote:

The simple strategy is probably better and on governorship - this will in final analysis be decided by the others though Angels (being at war w you and not with us may tip the scale in our favor - even if I seem to recall the AI usually abstains unless you are allied).

On the outlook of the tradedeal I tend to agree with you and likewise do not think you should slow down in the hope it happens.

We do not need ecological engineering at this point so now explanation needed for now. If we are going to want any of your techs any time soon it will be all that uni has as we are going to probe them. Otherwise first tech we will want will be environmental economics.

On the others I have said nothing specific about how much you owe us so if at some point you need to give a story just give whatever.

Snowflake · January 13, 2004, 18:56

There's some discussion about future SPs in the Drones Embassy. Since Kody's not here I'll try to copy the discussions here in case people do not want to or do not have time to check that forum.

Snowflake · January 13, 2004, 18:57

Enigma

Quote:

It has come to my attention that we may want to divide up the SPs a bit.

The Hive is pretty intent on getting Cloudbase.
We also think the following are useful:
Ascetic virtues (+3 Police == GOOD)
Living Refinery (+4 Support == GOOD)
The Cloning Vats (on the way there - no more hive growth problem! might switch to Green every once in a while)
We may get Adaptive Doctrine if we're sly with CyCon / Peace, and so too snag the PEG.

The Drones probably want:
The Longevity vaccine (less police == more drones)
The Citizen's defence force
The Cyborg Factory
The HSA

And other such good stuff.
What's your opinion on the SP sharing?

Snowflake · January 13, 2004, 18:57

buster

Quote:

Sorry but above SP distribution is not anywhere near being even handed - Cloudbase, vats & ascetic virtues are probably the three most valuable in the whole game.

Vats for you makes sense as you will benefit more from it than us. That does not mean we won't benefit though - it is an extremely serious boost to any faction.

Likewise the research doubling ones make sense to give to us to build in the capitol that also has Mechant guild (those are not part of the list though).

Living refinery I can see the sense in going to you as you getting +4 support means more than us getting +2.
Citicens defense is obvious for us as it does you no good.

Now that leaves cloudbase, cyborg factory, PEG, ascetic virtues & HSA. We will have as much benefit from those as you will.

Suggest one faction takes cloudbase another the other four (or as many of them as the cycon do not get).

Distributed like that I will leave it to you to decide if you prefer Cloudbase or the other four. I will be Ok either way.

Jamski · January 13, 2004, 19:51

Cloudbase. Yees.
But is it equal to cyborg factory, PEG, AV, and HSA all together?

-Jam

Mead · January 13, 2004, 22:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamski
Cloudbase. Yees.
But is it equal to cyborg factory, PEG, AV, and HSA all together?

-Jam

No, it is not.

I too love Cloudbase, but not enough to give up all four.

Let us take Cloudbase, and let Drones choose three of the remaining four.

This way, we get CB and at least one other. Drones get three out of the remaining four, but, the three they choose, leaving us the one they want the least.

We get first choice out of the five, they get the next three choices, and we are left with the one they do not want.

This should be our bottom line offer.

We should not make this offer to the Drones unless all other negotiations fail.

It is a very sweet deal for the Drones. If they reject it, then we should try our best to get as many of the SPs without their help.

Mead

Micha · January 13, 2004, 22:37

According to your plan, we would end up having the HSA as our second SP out of those five. Since this is SMAX, not SMAC, the Hunter-Seeker-Algorithm isn´t that juicy anymore. Why don´t we distribute two or three amongst our both factions and let the rest have whoever builds it first?

Enigma_Nova · January 14, 2004, 02:03

I move for a hostile SP takeover action as a show of power.

Snowflake · January 14, 2004, 03:58

People, think this way. If you feel Cloudbase is not worth the 4 SPs, then take the 4 SPs and give them Cloudbase. Will you still feel unfair?

Cloudbase is in the near future. Whereas the other 4 SPs may not be 4 at all. CC has a spare SP sitting there that they can grab PEG right away. The others are far in the future where it may not influence the game as Cloudbase.

If we say to give PEG to the Drones then they would trade HEC to peace for Adap and that might save peace without we having to spend lots of real effort. CC might grab another SP but that would be the Drone's problem.

If somebody have a real meaningful proposal (that includes more SPs perhaps, say the research enhancing ones) I'm all for it. If we are simply talking about hostile actions and getting drones mad and stuff, I guess my time maybe here to quit too following Kody.

Micha · January 14, 2004, 15:39

nah, Enigma is a hardliner, and fortunately he stands alone with this anti-drones opinion. In fact, the Crimson Guards are already observing him, but *shhh*, you didn´t hear that from me

Well, I´d go for cloudbase then, maybe we can later trade for another SP when the drones might change their opinion on this...

Snowflake · January 16, 2004, 13:44

My post at the Drones Embassy:

Quote:

Buster, we've had some discussions in the Hive although no formal poll has been conducted. Let me see how do you feel about this:

The Hive likes the Cloudbase. And it is generally agreed that we would be willing to let you take at least 3 of the 4 SPs you listed. Since CC has a spare SP sitting right there I imagine it is very likely they will grab one of the 4 in your list. In other words there will not be any material difference between our positions. You do realize that building 4 SP needs lots minerals, so in case if CC has not grabed one and you are unable to build your 4th one and the Hive is in perfect position to grab that from the CC's hands perhaps we should go for it instead of letting it fall to CC's hands although I don't see it being a likely scenerio.

For the rest SPs we may need to discuss more when the time comes and perhaps on a one to one bases. I would agree that Vats are pretty important to the Hive and it is beneficial if the Drones build a research doubling SP in the base with Merchant guild. It may not be necessary to concentrate all research doubling SPs in one base though since the research points may eventually be more than it requires to finish a tech in one turn and that would mean waste. It may be actually more efficient if these research doubling SPs are distributed between us.

Enigma_Nova · January 16, 2004, 21:35

I don't like the outcome of this.
I'd rather we take whatever SPs we can, screw the Drones.
Let them get mad.
I suggest we try to get the CyCon off our backs, either by conquering them or by allying with them. Then we go on a SP spree, and if the Drones feel betrayed, let them make their time.