Free market reforms hurting Iraqi economy.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Dude...you weren't making much sense before, and now, you're making even less.

Are the Iraquis, or are they not, buying DVD players and stuff?

If they are, then it has got to be "a majority of" Iraquis, or the dollar amount you're talking about won't be significant to the country as a whole. If it is a minority of people who are buying them, then so what? A thousand people buying DVD players isn't gonna make or break the Iraqui economy, I'm happy to say.

-=Vel=-

The people buying the imports are the ones with the money. You don't understand that most of the Iraqis don't have money.

The point is that the money that we are pumping into Iraq will only help Iraq if it is spent on Iraqi goods and services. Giving them money to buy Chinese goods is pointless.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You do realize that they were importing this same stuff during while the sanctions regime was in place, don't you? Why would you expect this trade to cease now that the trade is legal?

Not in the same numbers. I think the problem is that I don't have an internet source for you guys to read. Imports are now flooding in because the tariffs are dropped.

[Imran Siddiqui]

So Iraqis can't make DVD players (and haven't been), but we should buy DVD players made in Iraq, which they aren't making, but they should be making, even though they are of lesser quality than imported goods.



This thread is a riot.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
So Iraqis can't make DVD players (and haven't been), but we should buy DVD players made in Iraq, which they aren't making, but they should be making, even though they are of lesser quality than imported goods.



This thread is a riot.

Why is it so important for them to have DVDs?

[DinoDoc]

Because they apparently feel the need to buy them. You were probably whining about the Afghans getting excited over radios and TV.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Because they apparently feel the need to buy them. You were probably whining about the Afghans getting excited over radios and TV.

And buying crap is what's really important isn't it.

[DAVOUT]

Is it not Article 1 of the Iraqi Bill of Rights which states : Any Iraqi is entitled to have the opportunity to build or acquire a delicious video display.

I must recognize that there is not a word about imports. :

[Velociryx]

Kid....I'm going to ask you to THINK for just one moment about what you are saying.

IF imports are now "flooding" into Iraq, then it is because the demand for those imports is there (ie - no one would just send stuff to iraq unless there was an excellent chance that the stuff sent would be purchased).

The stuff sent IS being purchased, and so it continues to be sent (didn't lose you so far, did I?)

Some of the stuff being demanded is almost certainly consumer goods, sure, but just how much use is a DVD player if the lights don't stay on reliably? (my guess here would be somewhere between "none" and "not much" but maybe you know of some hand crank DVD players I'm not aware of).

Some of the stuff being demanded is medicine for the hospital. If I had to guess, I'd bet that medicines are in greater demand than DVD players, and thus, more of them are "flooding in" than DVD players. If I'm incorrect there, I invite you to show me the source of your information.

Still more of the stuff being demanded is basic infrastructure stuff. Bags of cement, tools, and the like to rebuild stuff, and guess what happens here....we need PEOPLE in order to rebuild stuff...which means jobs will be created (yep, using those evil, nasty imports, even). Further...the stuff that's being rebuilt? It's not just being rebuilt for the hell of it....it will actually DO something when it's finished (maybe housing, maybe a new open air market, maybe a metal working shop or cafe...could be anything). The point is that there's a lot of stuff being imported. Some is more valuable than others in terms of rebuilding the local economy, but there's no good way to prevent it from coming in, nor should we.

-=Vel=-

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why is it so important for them to have DVDs?

I dunno... you brought it up .

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid....I'm going to ask you to THINK for just one moment about what you are saying.

IF imports are now "flooding" into Iraq, then it is because the demand for those imports is there (ie - no one would just send stuff to iraq unless there was an excellent chance that the stuff sent would be purchased).

The stuff sent IS being purchased, and so it continues to be sent (didn't lose you so far, did I?)

Some of the stuff being demanded is almost certainly consumer goods, sure, but just how much use is a DVD player if the lights don't stay on reliably? (my guess here would be somewhere between "none" and "not much" but maybe you know of some hand crank DVD players I'm not aware of).

Some of the stuff being demanded is medicine for the hospital. If I had to guess, I'd bet that medicines are in greater demand than DVD players, and thus, more of them are "flooding in" than DVD players. If I'm incorrect there, I invite you to show me the source of your information.

Still more of the stuff being demanded is basic infrastructure stuff. Bags of cement, tools, and the like to rebuild stuff, and guess what happens here....we need PEOPLE in order to rebuild stuff...which means jobs will be created (yep, using those evil, nasty imports, even). Further...the stuff that's being rebuilt? It's not just being rebuilt for the hell of it....it will actually DO something when it's finished (maybe housing, maybe a new open air market, maybe a metal working shop or cafe...could be anything). The point is that there's a lot of stuff being imported. Some is more valuable than others in terms of rebuilding the local economy, but there's no good way to prevent it from coming in, nor should we.

-=Vel=-

I had to just skim your post, because it's obvious that you don't consider much of what I say, which makes reading your posts tedicous.

I'm not saying not to import medical goods or imports. I'm just saying that unnecessary imports should be limited.

[Velociryx]

That's okay....I didn't expect you to actually READ the other side's posts....if you did that, you'd realize how far off base you are, and that just wouldn't do....

So again....how are we going to "limit" these evil nasty imports, and to what end, exactly? Shall we round up DVD owners and shoot them in the streets? Yep...that would suppress demand....

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
That's okay....I didn't expect you to actually READ the other side's posts....if you did that, you'd realize how far off base you are, and that just wouldn't do....

So again....how are we going to "limit" these evil nasty imports, and to what end, exactly? Shall we round up DVD owners and shoot them in the streets? Yep...that would suppress demand....

-=Vel=-

Have you ever heard of tariffs?

[Velociryx]

Sure have....and I hate to break it to you, the presence of tarrifs aren't required for an economy to function. Nor are they particularly enforceable when the country is still in chaos (ie - all you will do is create a stronger black market, which will promote more violence in the streets).

But yeah...good solution! That's exactly the way to restore order....put a bunch of Arabic Al Capones in Iraq!

-=Vel=-

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Have you ever heard of tariffs?

You want to increase the cost of imports so that only wealthy people could enjoy the delicious video displays ?

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sure have....and I hate to break it to you, the presence of tarrifs aren't required for an economy to function. Nor are they particularly enforceable when the country is still in chaos (ie - all you will do is create a stronger black market, which will promote more violence in the streets).

But yeah...good solution! That's exactly the way to restore order....put a bunch of Arabic Al Capones in Iraq!

-=Vel=-

The question is will there be more order if people have jobs or not. I don't think a black market will even appear, but if it does would not be significant at all.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DAVOUT


You want to increase the cost of imports so that only wealthy people could enjoy the delicious video displays ?

The ability to buy consumer goods already depends on your income, so what is the significance of making it more exclusive?

[Velociryx]

No....what he's saying is that only the rich can afford them now....so a tarriff would make them unaffordable, period.

Of course, what he's not recognizing is:
1) If only the rich can afford them, then the total demand relative to the total size of the Iraqi economy makes the savings in money not spent on those goods irrelevant in terms of nation-building and

2) Given the current disarray of the nation, those tarrifs would be nigh on impossible to enforce, and the goods would still get into the country by way of smugglers, who would sell them on the black market.

The solution though, obviously, is to pour millions of dollars a month into stopping the flow of $100,000 dollars a month or so of illicit DVD players....good economic sense in that, you see....

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
No....what he's saying is that only the rich can afford them now....so a tarriff would make them unaffordable, period.

Of course, what he's not recognizing is:
1) If only the rich can afford them, then the total demand relative to the total size of the Iraqi economy makes the savings in money not spent on those goods irrelevant in terms of nation-building and

Although it seems insignificant to you it's all we have to work with. We need to make every bit count. Every dollar we put into the economy should be used to rebuild Iraq, not just provide them with Chinese consumer goods.

Originally posted by Velociryx
2) Given the current disarray of the nation, those tarrifs would be nigh on impossible to enforce, and the goods would still get into the country by way of smugglers, who would sell them on the black market.

The solution though, obviously, is to pour millions of dollars a month into stopping the flow of $100,000 dollars a month or so of illicit DVD players....good economic sense in that, you see....

-=Vel=-

You are identifying a problem that just won't be a problem.

[Velociryx]

You don't have the first clue about human nature then, do you? No, really....

You're right....the black market won't be a problem. Just like it isn't a problem in Russia now, right? And they're in worlds better shape than Iraq....

In short, you continue to amaze me...

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
You don't have the first clue about human nature then, do you? No, really....

You're right....the black market won't be a problem. Just like it isn't a problem in Russia now, right? And they're in worlds better shape than Iraq....

In short, you continue to amaze me...

-=Vel=-

How can you have a problem like that when you have military rule? Seriously, I know Bush is incompetent, but you seem to think he's more incompetent than I do.

[DAVOUT]

You know better that the Iraquis what they need (Central Planning Syndrom); you cannot imagine that the Iraqis ordering these goods can have every productive justification to do so. For instance, DVD can be used in education, in research, in administration, in healthcare, etc ...

[Velociryx]

In case you hadn't noticed, the military is stretched thin as it is...there's a broad consensus that we need MORE troops just to hold what we've got, and yet, somehow, magically, we have enough to set up checkpoints and oversee the whole tarriff operation you want to introduce? Where will you pull these troops from, exactly? What will you leave exposed in order to properly enforce the tarrifs and monitor all port activity to the Nth degree? (to say nothing of Iraq's broad, wide-open borders)

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DAVOUT
You know better that the Iraquis what they need (Central Planning Syndrom); you cannot imagine that the Iraqis ordering these goods can have every productive justification to do so. For instance, DVD can be used in education, in research, in administration, in healthcare, etc ...

Come on. How petty is this? They don't need DVD players.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
In case you hadn't noticed, the military is stretched thin as it is...there's a broad consensus that we need MORE troops just to hold what we've got, and yet, somehow, magically, we have enough to set up checkpoints and oversee the whole tarriff operation you want to introduce? Where will you pull these troops from, exactly? What will you leave exposed in order to properly enforce the tarrifs and monitor all port activity to the Nth degree? (to say nothing of Iraq's broad, wide-open borders)

-=Vel=-

You are just imagining a huge problem where there will be a very small insignificant problem. Tariffs exist all over the world. Smuggling goods duty free has never been a serious problem.

[Velociryx]

Kid...bottom line is...who are you to tell them what they do or don't need? And unless you want to go house to house and check for stuff you don't think they should be buying, and threaten harsh punishments for acquiring those "forbidden goods" they're GOING to get them, whether you like it or not.

So what's the solution? Let it go or kill them in bulk? One of these solutions will let people focus on the business of rebuilding the coutnry. One of them will enrage the whole region. You pick.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

You are just imagining a huge problem where there will be a very small insignificant problem. Tariffs exist all over the world. Smuggling goods duty free has never been a serious problem.

Tell it to the Russians.

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid...bottom line is...who are you to tell them what they do or don't need? And unless you want to go house to house and check for stuff you don't think they should be buying, and threaten harsh punishments for acquiring those "forbidden goods" they're GOING to get them, whether you like it or not.

I would very much like to have a Cuban cigar right now. Unfortunately, the US govt has successfully denied me that option.

[DAVOUT]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Come on. How petty is this? They don't need DVD players.

Yes, you personally are not able to imagine other needs; you know what is good for them. Intellectual arrogance.

[Velociryx]

I would very much like to have a Cuban cigar right now. Unfortunately, the US govt has successfully denied me that option

Oh. My. God.

I can't even believe you posted that as a viable argument!

Yes...the USA is a strong, stable government. We have the infrastructure in place here to support and enforce tarrifs.

But in your mind, I suppose, it's a simple matter, even when much of the country still can't keep the lights on reliably.

Amazing....

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You are just imagining a huge problem where there will be a very small insignificant problem. Tariffs exist all over the world. Smuggling goods duty free has never been a serious problem.

Ummm..... There is this little thing known as a war on .....what was it again.... Ohh Yeah, Drugs!!!!

He continues to be the best source of entertainment on 'Poly.

Go Kid, Go Kid, Go Kid.