Chariots. Why?

CerberusIV · July 11, 2003, 05:19

Do you ever build chariots? I mean the ordinary type, not the Egyptian UU.

I ask because I realised I have only ever built one chariot in one game and that was to see what it looked like. I usually use archers, then swordsmen or horsemen, to deal with barbarians so I don't see the point of an attack 1 unit for 20 shields.

I am thinking of making chariots stronger but wondered what other players do?

Harovan · July 11, 2003, 05:31

I often delay horseback riding and build an army of veteran chariots, which I later upgrade to horsemen. It costs 20 shields + 20 gold for the upgrade, this price is usually easier to pay early on than 30 shields.

Arrians standard approach is build 20 veteran chariots and 10 veteran warriors, connect iron and research/trade horseback riding, upgrade (800 gold should be easily affordable with a science slider of 0 or 10%) and go bonk some AI head. Works pretty well.

Nym · July 11, 2003, 09:17

I do not build war chariots either. I only try it once, to see how it looks like.

TheArsenal · July 11, 2003, 12:57

I don't think I've built chariots other than out of curiosity. In part because the 1 attack point doesn't seem worth it, and in part because if I am forced to fight that early I am going with an archer rush.

vmxa1 · July 11, 2003, 13:23

I tend to not build them either, but I do understand the concept of Arrians and it can work. Now warriors to Swords is a nice move. This was not one of my favs before they could be upgraded to Med Inf. I did not want all those dead end swords, not they are able to upgrade and be useful.

Arrian · July 11, 2003, 14:39

Quote:

Arrians standard approach is build 20 veteran chariots and 10 veteran warriors, connect iron and research/trade horseback riding, upgrade (800 gold should be easily affordable with a science slider of 0 or 10%) and go bonk some AI head. Works pretty well.

Indeed, when playing the Japanese and/or if using a non-militaristic civ not named Egypt (enough disclaimers there?). Works like a charm. 20 horsemen + 10 swordsmen + ~5 spearmen = 3-4 AI empires destroyed (Monarch).

I tend not to use this with other war civs like Rome, China or Germany. I'll use some archers, then some swords/horses... piecemeal warfare. Take the AI apart bit by bit over time. It's really only Japan and other, non-militaristic civs that I'll do the raging horde with (no fighting until I unleash a massive army to take down my continent).

Egypt, of course, requires no upgrade. Just build the 20-25 chariots, some spears, and either do more research, increase the number of swordsmen, or a bit 'o both.

-Arrian

Theseus · July 11, 2003, 15:28

Why not for China, or any other MIL with a horse-based UU?

I do.

GodKing · July 11, 2003, 15:34

I have done like suggested above (planned upgrades) and ti works well.

Also, if it appears that I am on a pangia, huge map with lots of flat land, I may build 1-3 for scouting purposes (assuming non expansionistic - no scouts). Very situation dependant.

Arrian · July 11, 2003, 15:44

Theseus,

I'll do it, just not on the same scale. With Japan, I will go for an all-out assault with a large number of horsemen, backed by some swords & spears. I will typically not fight before unleashing the horde.

With China (or Rome, or Germany), I'll pick some fights with archers, then I'll hit somebody with some swords, maybe some horses in support... etc. Instead of doing 1 major buildup, I fight a series of smaller wars (more oscillation). My troop strength is probably lower, but then the AI is also weaker. Plus, the archer fighting gives me a shot at an ultra-early Leader.

-Arrian

CerberusIV · July 11, 2003, 16:26

Thanks for the comments. I don't usually upgrade troops in the early game, just build as many swordsmen as possible and rush but I will try some of these ideas.

Shogun Gunner · July 11, 2003, 22:13

Only if the terrain is very flat...if you can't take advantage of the speed...what's the point?

All things considered...a very fragile military unit...

Harovan · July 11, 2003, 23:48

They're not "fragile", they are next to useless. A bit scouting on flat land, pre-horse barbarian hunting, and that's about it. But as cheap unit to be upgraded to horsemen or knights it's good enough. It's so easy to get gold in the early game, but shields are scarce.

Panag · July 12, 2003, 03:02

Quote:

Originally posted by CerberusIV
Do you ever build chariots? I mean the ordinary type, not the Egyptian UU.

I ask because I realised I have only ever built one chariot in one game and that was to see what it looked like. I usually use archers, then swordsmen or horsemen, to deal with barbarians so I don't see the point of an attack 1 unit for 20 shields.

I am thinking of making chariots stronger but wondered what other players do?

hi ,

they should not be made stronger , .....

they are great to get units fast in far away cities early on and to disband them there , .....

and if you dont want to waste time with horseback riding , they are worth it , ......

have a nice day

The Mad Monk · July 12, 2003, 06:26

I'm not entirely sure why chariots are not on a par with horsemen. Before the invention of the stirrup, and certainly in open terrain, the chariot had a decided advantage against both mounted and unmounted opponents.

That's why they were so popular back then.

player1 · July 12, 2003, 08:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Nym
I do not build war chariots either. I only try it once, to see how it looks like.

War Chariots are great.
33% discount Horsemen.
And you gte them very early.

CerberusIV · July 12, 2003, 09:25

I decided to try 2.1.2 chariots (3.1.2 war chariots for Egypt). The results were interesting when there is a lot of jungle and mountain terrain around. I actually have HBR as an optional tech so it allows skipping horsemen entirely.

What was interesting is that when there are stronger chariot units around the barbarian horsemen seem to go to great lengths to stick to mountains where they can't be attacked by chariots until they get close to a target city.

It also makes the initial choice of warrior code or the wheel less obvious as chariots are faster than archers but only if you have horses so you end up gambling your research path on whether the resource is available to you or not (unless you play as the Japanese).

I'm not sure yet if this is unbalancing or not but at least it makes the unit worth using, not just building to upgrade.

player1 · July 12, 2003, 09:44

Well 3/1/2, cost 20 Egypt chariot is surely unbalancing, considering that old version was fine unit.

Panag · July 12, 2003, 09:52

hi ,

wait till we get that second UU chariot in the game

its going to be one heck of a unit, one of tha type that sticks around even after pike's or so , ....

screenshots link in sig below

have a nice day

vmxa1 · July 12, 2003, 12:56

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I'm not entirely sure why chariots are not on a par with horsemen. Before the invention of the stirrup, and certainly in open terrain, the chariot had a decided advantage against both mounted and unmounted opponents.

That's why they were so popular back then.

Just a thought, but Horsemen should be able to have a great deal of maneuver ability over a chariot. Much quicker turns, stops and starts.

The Mad Monk · July 12, 2003, 17:54

Absolutely. One thing I've done in my neverending mod (working title: Massive Planet Mod)is too double the base movements of all units, so I'd have room to make minor adjustments to all the move rates. Horsemen start out with a 5, while chariots remain at 4. I'm playing around with having standard knights at 3, but that may slow them up too much.

Bane Star · July 12, 2003, 21:34

I added a transport capacity of 1, allows them to tansport a settler/ other attacking unit. I think it makes sense archers get onboard the chariot, races up to the battle lines and gets off ready for battle., Doesn;t need to be trained to ride a chariot (like you need to be trained to ride a horse), and I changed the upgrade to ... heavy chariot, no wait thats my mod... but you could do this for your own...

johncmcleod · July 12, 2003, 21:54

I've never built a chariot. But Arrians idea sounds good so I'll go try it. Problem is my early game really, really sucks and I'm sure it wouldn't work to well for me.

vmxa1 · July 12, 2003, 23:43

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Absolutely. One thing I've done in my neverending mod (working title: Massive Planet Mod)is too double the base movements of all units, so I'd have room to make minor adjustments to all the move rates. Horsemen start out with a 5, while chariots remain at 4. I'm playing around with having standard knights at 3, but that may slow them up too much.

One thing that occurs to me is that in the medival times in Europe the Knight was about the only one that had a mounted attack. This is the reason it needs to be able to move faster than older units. Only the noblemen could afford to have trained horses.

The Mad Monk · July 13, 2003, 04:20

True, but they generally carried so much armor and other gear that they were't able to move that much faster. A knight required lots of support, and the people and materiel needed to provide that support slowed things up further. Messengers and scouts of the era were often mounted, and this would be a justification for keeping horseman units around longer.

johncmcleod · July 14, 2003, 00:14

Remember-sometimes they make things about civ3 unrealistic to make the game more balanced.

Panag · July 14, 2003, 00:21

hi ,

well , soon we shall rethink this topic , .....

with the arrival of the three man chariot , ......

have a nice day

The Mad Monk · July 14, 2003, 02:13

Please tell me that isn't the official graphic. It looks like its being crewed by the three stooges.

"Hey Moe, Look! It's a one-stringed lyre!"

"That's a bow, you knuklehead!"

Panag · July 14, 2003, 05:59

Quote:

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Please tell me that isn't the official graphic. It looks like its being crewed by the three stooges.

"Hey Moe, Look! It's a one-stringed lyre!"

"That's a bow, you knuklehead!"

hi ,

yes it is

have a nice day

Shogun Gunner · July 14, 2003, 19:05

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

yes it is

have a nice day

nyuk, nyuk, nyuk...

Sounds like a great new tribe, The Stooges. Special unit? The Curly, he lies down, spins around and barks like a dog.

You ask, "What Science do I need for that special unit?" You need to discover Marijuana. Just imagine your science advisor puffing away as he tells you he forgot what he was researching

....as he giggles his ass off...

Just take off the victory condition "Win by Jester Victory" All the other tribes stop working as they laugh at you. A default win every time!

SirOsis · July 14, 2003, 19:35

I've used the chariot. It is quite good at destroying infrastructure when there is a lot of plains and grassland. The 2 move is great because you can pillage and then move. That is their main strength early game.

If you can take out an opponents roads and mines and maybe capture a worker or two by surprise they have paid for themselves.