Setting up Tenent for the Fall-Guy - Page 2

Q Classic · July 11, 2003, 23:39

or, in list form, adding a few:

{Bush, Clinton, Roosevelt, Reagan, Grant, Nixon, Carter, Eisenhower, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, McKinley, Wilson, Harding, Hoover} & co. are all a pack of liars and anyone who believes them is an idiot, as amply demonstrated on this forum.

TCO · July 11, 2003, 23:39

Is there any doiubt that Iraq had yellowcake? We already found a bunch. What they hell is an oil country with lousy science doing building nuke plants. 3 guesses...

Sava · July 11, 2003, 23:53

Quote:

What they hell is an oil country with lousy science doing building nuke plants. 3 guesses...

Big deal, of course Saddam wanted nukes. But he was closer to getting them in the 80's when Israel blew up that nuke plant, then he was in march 2003. In fact, Saddam was less of a threat to Americans in 2003, then he was in 1990.

The lie came in when Bush, Blair and company made Saddam out to be a bad, bad evil man who could attack us within 45 minutes notice.

Agathon · July 11, 2003, 23:57

The intellectual mendacity or sheer slow-wittedness of some right wing Apolytoners is so blatant that even Fez could see it. In fact it's getting so comically predictable so as to make me know what will be written before I read it. Even if Bush were to be caught on tape admitting that it's bollocks, some here would say that the democrats doctored the tape. Such fanaticism is worthy of the Taliban.

No matter what evidence is produced or not produced it's obvious that the tired old tory windbags are going to insist that the truth is out there. We may never be able to see them or touch them, but Saddam's WMD's exist in a transcendental realm beyond human ken; just as the righteousness of their cause is proven beyond the bounds of reasonable human debate.

However the war may turn out and independently of any arguments for or against it, it should be evident to any person with a modicum of common sense that Bush, Blair and company simply bullshitted for all they were worth in order to con people into a war the reason for which still escapes me. They'd say anything to get their way then and they'll come up with the most absurd excuses now to try to obscure the blindingly obvious. I can't think of many more leaders that have been more destructive of democracy in their respective countries.

Well maybe Clinton who couldn't bring himself to admit before the world that he got his penis sucked by a loud fat girl a few times and that only managed to get his jollies even once. How awful compared to bullshitting the public to get opinion onside to start a war that will benefit your rich friends? How dare Clinton lie about his private life/parts? The impudence of it.

Phew... I'm glad I live in a sensible country with a free press and a reasonable standard of public debate.

VJ · July 11, 2003, 23:57

Quote:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The willing guilibility of many people towards Bush is simply amazing.

Quote:

Originally posted by The Diplomat
The willing gulibility of many people towards Clinton was also quite amazing.

Well, bush is lying...

BUSH? LOOK WHAT CLINTON DID!
CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON CLINTON 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HA! NOW I'VE PROVED THAT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TALK ABOUT BUSH! I WON!

Agathon · July 11, 2003, 23:58

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava

The lie came in when Bush, Blair and company made Saddam out to be a bad, bad evil man who could attack us within 45 minutes notice.

Yes - In the time it takes you to get three blocks in a Manhattan cab, Saddam Hussein could be raining down his atomic fury upon you.

Do you live in Idaho? Did you know that you are less than an hours reach from the Iraqui madman. Support our president in bombing civilians to stop him!

Sava · July 12, 2003, 00:00

Quote:

Yes - In the time it takes you to get three blocks in a Manhattan cab, Saddam Hussein could be raining down his atomic fury upon you.

Do you live in Idaho? Did you know that you are less than an hours reach from the Iraqui madman. Support our president in bombing civilians to stop him!

Unfortunately... dumbf*cks across America believe this... or did believe it...

Agathon · July 12, 2003, 00:01

Yes Clinton's lies resulted in a fat girl with a mouthful of sperm and a ruined dress.

Bush's lies flattened cities.

TCO · July 12, 2003, 00:21

Only little kids who play Civ think that the war was about "Saddam attacking us in 45 minutes". It was about a long pattern of behavior by Saddam in terms of invading his neighbors, attacking Americans, using WOMD, having programs of WOMD, and not abiding by insepections, and not abiding by the sease-fire terms.

Sava · July 12, 2003, 00:25

It's funny you mention inspections and such... because since 1991, Saddam became less and less of a threat against us. The inspections were just the slow tightening of a noose. They were working.

Don't blame those opposed to the war, TCO. Bush was the one who made his case based on lies, misinformations, forged data, and obsolete, decade's old data. Frankly, I figured Republicans would hate Bush more than everyone else... what for making you guys look stupid.

Q Classic · July 12, 2003, 00:28

explosions --of all types-- are sexy.

Drake Tungsten · July 12, 2003, 01:13

I still don't see how people can claim that Bush lied. In his State of the Union, he said that British Intelligence indicated that Iraq had bought uranium from Niger. British Intelligence still believes that, according to Tony Blair. Bush may have decided now that this information shouldn't have been used, but at the time he made the statement there is no reason to believe he knew it was false, especially given the fact that the agency he got the information from still believes it to be accurate.

And it's Tenet, for god's sake. Props to Imran for getting it right.

GePap · July 12, 2003, 02:27

Bush never mentioned any African country in his speech, nor did he ever specify any source for his claim either, which is the basis of Sloww's thread on this issue. (He made on passing reference to African uranium in his speech).

Drake Tungsten · July 12, 2003, 02:28

I'm pretty sure I heard a clip from the State of the Union last night in which Bush specifically mentioned British Intelligence as the source for the African uranium information.

Sikander · July 12, 2003, 02:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon
The intellectual mendacity or sheer slow-wittedness of some right wing Apolytoners is so blatant that even Fez could see it. In fact it's getting so comically predictable so as to make me know what will be written before I read it. Even if Bush were to be caught on tape admitting that it's bollocks, some here would say that the democrats doctored the tape. Such fanaticism is worthy of the Taliban.

No matter what evidence is produced or not produced it's obvious that the tired old tory windbags are going to insist that the truth is out there. We may never be able to see them or touch them, but Saddam's WMD's exist in a transcendental realm beyond human ken; just as the righteousness of their cause is proven beyond the bounds of reasonable human debate.

However the war may turn out and independently of any arguments for or against it, it should be evident to any person with a modicum of common sense that Bush, Blair and company simply bullshitted for all they were worth in order to con people into a war the reason for which still escapes me. They'd say anything to get their way then and they'll come up with the most absurd excuses now to try to obscure the blindingly obvious. I can't think of many more leaders that have been more destructive of democracy in their respective countries.

Well maybe Clinton who couldn't bring himself to admit before the world that he got his penis sucked by a loud fat girl a few times and that only managed to get his jollies even once. How awful compared to bullshitting the public to get opinion onside to start a war that will benefit your rich friends? How dare Clinton lie about his private life/parts? The impudence of it.

Phew... I'm glad I live in a sensible country with a free press and a reasonable standard of public debate.

I seriously wonder why you bother posting here and reading this drivel. I'm sure it must be much more interesting to grade people's essay exams on post-modernism, structuralism, and ex-post-de-facto-constructuralism or whatever the latest empty fad is. We obviously aren't worth your time.

GePap · July 12, 2003, 02:30

Perhaps: but he certainly never mentioned what country in Africa it was.

Now it is only up to Tony to come up with the supposed goods.

Sikander · July 12, 2003, 02:31

Quote:

Originally posted by Agathon
Yes Clinton's lies resulted in a fat girl with a mouthful of sperm and a ruined dress.

Bush's lies flattened cities.

Which cities again have been flattened, I keep forgetting?

Drake Tungsten · July 12, 2003, 02:33

Quote:

Perhaps: but he certainly never mentioned what country in Africa it was.

From the State of the Union address:

Quote:

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030128-19.html

You're right that he didn't specifically name Niger, but I don't see how that is important. He could hardly be talking about anything else.

Sikander · July 12, 2003, 02:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
I still don't see how people can claim that Bush lied. In his State of the Union, he said that British Intelligence indicated that Iraq had bought uranium from Niger. British Intelligence still believes that, according to Tony Blair. Bush may have decided now that this information shouldn't have been used, but at the time he made the statement there is no reason to believe he knew it was false, especially given the fact that the agency he got the information from still believes it to be accurate.

And it's Tenet, for god's sake. Props to Imran for getting it right.

IIRC Bush never even mentioned Niger in his speech, nor did he say that any uranium ever changed hands. He said that Iraq attempted to purchase uranium in Africa. The Brits objected to our making the source of their info public (which we were doing for the U.N. presentation), so we left it out of that presentation. There is little or no proof of anything here, and the real question is, is Bush weak enough politically to be taken down a notch or two by this? I say yes he is weak enough.

WMD were not the best reason to go to war in this instance. A far better case can be made for Iraq breaking the armistace, as I have said before several times over the years on this forum. But WMD had the dual benefit (as perceived by the Administration) of cowing NK, Iran etc. and winning over the U.N.'s support. Obviously these perceived advantages did not stand up as well as hoped over time, especially once the French dagger had come home to roost in Colin Powell's spine and Bush's diplomatic skills had time to do their usual magic.

Drake Tungsten · July 12, 2003, 02:43

Quote:

WMD were not the best reason to go to war in this instance. A far better case can be made for Iraq breaking the armistace, as I have said before several times over the years on this forum. But WMD had the dual benefit (as perceived by the Administration) of cowing NK, Iran etc. and winning over the U.N.'s support. Obviously these perceived advantages did not stand up as well as hoped over time, especially once the French dagger had come home to roost in Colin Powell's spine and Bush's diplomatic skills had time to do their usual magic.

You're exactly right on this.

VJ · July 12, 2003, 02:43

Quote:

A far better case can be made for Iraq breaking the armistace

Wasn't it said that the reason for war was the 'fact' that Iraq had breaked the armistace by having WMD?

Quote:

French dagger had come home to roost in Colin Powell's spine and Bush's diplomatic skills had time to do their usual magic.

Colin Powell came to UN, with a tablespoon of salt, said it was Anthrax, then said that Iraq had it, offered hi-quality satellite pictures of trucks as evidence, then left. And it was all the fault of the Frenchmen, we know.

LoneWolf · July 12, 2003, 03:38

FYI- Cynicism does not equal intelligence. If it did, this forum would already have divined life on other planets.

Sikander · July 12, 2003, 05:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuomerehu

Wasn't it said that the reason for war was the 'fact' that Iraq had breaked the armistace by having WMD?

Colin Powell came to UN, with a tablespoon of salt, said it was Anthrax, then said that Iraq had it, offered hi-quality satellite pictures of trucks as evidence, then left. And it was all the fault of the Frenchmen, we know.

I'm sure you don't know / remember, but the only reason Powell went to the U.N. was that the French said that they would support the U.S. He talked a very reluctant Bush into letting him go and make the case, and that is when he got ambushed. This is why the U.S. is sanctioning France in general and Msr. le President in particular. Germany never claimed to support us, and we never "retaliated" against them.

As for breaking the armistace, there are a thousand instances of Iraq doing so. Harping only on the disarmament question distorted the policy to the extent that it seemed as though the U.S. reserved the right to do this to any country with WMD, armistace or no. Much more attention should have been paid to the numerous and constant violations of the armistace. Another good reason for taking this line is that the armistace was an agreement between the U.S. and Coalition partners and the Iraqis. Thus it is enforceable outside of the auspices of the U.N.

mindseye · July 12, 2003, 06:17

Quote:

are we now learning it's not so great to be (Bush's) friend as well?

I dunno, maybe you should ask his old friend "Kenny-boy Lay".

mindseye · July 12, 2003, 06:23

Quote:

We may never be able to see them or touch them, but Saddam's WMD's exist in a transcendental realm beyond human ken; just as the righteousness of their cause is proven beyond the bounds of reasonable human debate.

DRoseDARs · July 12, 2003, 06:26

Quote:

Originally posted by LoneWolf
FYI- Cynicism does not equal intelligence. If it did, this forum would already have divined life on other planets.

Congradulations, that's my new sig.

I have to wonder what Tenet was offered to be the "Patsy" for this whole mess...

...Full Presidential Pardon...

...Ungodly sums of money...

...Unedited Britney Spears & Justin Timberlake Hardcore Porn Home Video?

I have difficulty believing the man and the people around him were SO incompetent as to make an error of this magnitude UNLESS there was extreme pressure coming from higher up.

TCO · July 12, 2003, 11:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
It's funny you mention inspections and such... because since 1991, Saddam became less and less of a threat against us. The inspections were just the slow tightening of a noose. They were working.

Don't blame those opposed to the war, TCO. Bush was the one who made his case based on lies, misinformations, forged data, and obsolete, decade's old data. Frankly, I figured Republicans would hate Bush more than everyone else... what for making you guys look stupid.

Listen you ****ing moron, he kicked the inspectors out in 1998. The inspections were a part of the cease-fire. He was not abiding by the cease-fire terms from 1991.

DanS · July 12, 2003, 12:02

I'm sure you don't know / remember, but the only reason Powell went to the U.N. was that the French said that they would support the U.S. He talked a very reluctant Bush into letting him go and make the case, and that is when he got ambushed. This is why the U.S. is sanctioning France in general and Msr. le President in particular. Germany never claimed to support us, and we never "retaliated" against them.

Later in the day, however, Britain wanted to push the issue in the UN. Spain argued vehemently against it. Bush was willing to do what was necessary for Britain, and was receptive to being argued in that direction by Powell, but the administration thought there was a low chance of success. France was really hurting Britain by its instransigence rather than the US.

I think if we had to do it again, we would support Britain on this and go to the UN on both occassions. Bush might be taking a hit on this politically throughout this, because it wasn't clean diplomacy, but you do what is necessary for your allies.

Agathon · July 12, 2003, 12:37

He kicked the inspectors out in 1998 because the US was using them to spy on him. He was completely justified in doing this. Blaming Saddam for US duplicity - heavens, what next? Accusing him of developing nukes?

How much more bollocks are you going to post? The facts are plainly evident, both Bush and Bliar recklessly ramped up the threat from Iraq to sway public opinion for a war that had nothing to do with WMD's, Al Quaeda, or any of the stated reasons.

Only a complete donkey couldn't see this.

Sava · July 12, 2003, 12:40

Quote:

Listen you ****ing moron, he kicked the inspectors out in 1998. The inspections were a part of the cease-fire. He was not abiding by the cease-fire terms from 1991.

you hate being wrong so you start with the name calling... for shame