Should the impi be changed?

johncmcleod · July 12, 2003, 22:22

I think the impi should be changed. They should have the extra movement point, because they traveled far in real life, but they should be offensive units. First off, the Zulu have offensive units prioritized for building, the impis were offensive units in real life, and the Zulu are very aggressive so it would make the impis more useful. Should they replace the archer (after all, I don't think the Zulu used archers much)? The ratings could be 2.1.2. Would this unbalance the game or make them weaker? Or should the ratings be 2.2.2?

The Mad Monk · July 12, 2003, 23:15

I don't know...the AI never seemed to have problems using Impis offensively in any of my games...

CerberusIV · July 13, 2003, 04:26

I tried 2.2.2 impis. At 20 shields they are too cheap and allow the Zulus to rush everyone in sight. At 30 shields they take too long to build very early in the game. The Carthaginians can build a 30 shield spearman replacement because they are industrious and mine grassland for the extra shield output quickly but the Zulus can't.

A basic defensive unit is necessary but the impi isn't it. I am considering trying the impi as either a swordsman substitute or possibly a 2.2.2 30 shield horseman replacement that doesn't require horses and allowing the Zulus to build ordinary spearmen as well.

sabrewolf · July 13, 2003, 07:50

2.1.2 couldn't be a spearman replacement anymore because they're too weak in defence.

maybe they don't represent the reality correct, but neither do the longbowmen which where used as a vital part of defence!
1.2.2 makes the impis THE ideal unit for pillaging. and they are perfect for protecting your horseman charge without having to wait for slow units to defend. impis can even withdraw from a fight!
they are perfect... only the zulu traits suck...

that's my opinion anyway

Panag · July 13, 2003, 22:40

hi ,

, it would not unbalance a whole lot on larger maps , ......

the best would be 2 defense and 2 offense , only 1 as movement , same should be for any other combat unit , .....

why only one , simple they where foot soldiers , agreed they could cover something like 30 miles in one day , but still , ....

have a nice day

Louis XXIV · July 14, 2003, 00:03

2.1.2 would completely screw Egypt

War Chariots are 2.1.2, requires Horses, and is wheeled

If Impis had the same stats without the penalties (and replaces Archers, so they start with them) they would be too powerful

johncmcleod · July 14, 2003, 00:22

Quote:

why only one , simple they where foot soldiers , agreed they could cover something like 30 miles in one day , but still , ....

That's 50 miles mind you.

If they replace the archer how about changing the starting techs so the Zulu don't start out with impis?

The Zulu have the two worst traits, and when the AI is them they always lose because of how aggressive they are and the only thing prioritized is offensive land units. So maybe making their UU a little unbalanced won't hurt.

How about making it 25 shields?

Panag · July 14, 2003, 00:26

Quote:

Originally posted by johncmcleod

That's 50 miles mind you.

If they replace the archer how about changing the starting techs so the Zulu don't start out with impis?

The Zulu have the two worst traits, and when the AI is them they always lose because of how aggressive they are and the only thing prioritized is offensive land units. So maybe making their UU a little unbalanced won't hurt.

How about making it 25 shields?

hi ,

, the zulu warrior came early , .....

well what about making wood a rescource or so , ..... shop down a forest and you can build them for twenty turns , ....

there are good results with higher cost , but the AI does not build them then , ......

fortunatly the impi is outdated fast and normally it does not present a huge danger , .....

have a nice day

CerberusIV · July 14, 2003, 05:09

I have now tried impis as 30 shield 2.2.2 horseman replacements so they come with HBR but don't require horses and allowing the Zulus to build ordinary spearmen.

It seems to work well and the Zulus still build plenty of impis and use them aggressively. However they now seem to start a little more quietly and only become aggressive once their empire gets to being militarily strong (which the higher attack of the revised impi helps).

I like this change as it makes the Zulus more of a challenge as an AI civ. If you play with cultural linked starts on (I don't any more) then it may also give them a better chance against the Persians who usually wipe them out in my games.

Lord_Davinator · July 14, 2003, 10:43

the 2.2.2 idea seems to be rather appealling... with a 30 shield cost it should make the impi and effective yet not too cheap unit.

Bamspeedy · July 14, 2003, 18:08

The impi are fine the way they are.

They are flagged as both an offensive and a defensive unit for the AI, so they can and do use them on offense.

Bring horsemen along with your impi, and you have your 2.2.2 stack.

star mouse · July 14, 2003, 22:50

Quote:

Originally posted by johncmcleod
How about making it 25 shields?

I don't think that's possible in the editor - the CIV3 editor only allows shield costs to rise in jumps of 10. Don't know about the PtW editor, but this is likely to be the case here, too.

Bamspeedy · July 14, 2003, 23:06

It's impossible for units to be at 25 shields, but you could do it for improvements by using the religious/scientific/militaristic traits (half-price of a 50-shield building). But the graphics aren't designed for these, so the city view screen gets screwed up when you try to see how many shields you've built towards that, because those graphics were designed only for shield increments of 10 (and a few other numbers, because of the AI discounts on higher levels).

johncmcleod · July 15, 2003, 01:32

I'm surprised you can't type in 2.5 in the editor

The Mad Monk · July 15, 2003, 04:55

You can type 0 in the editor, you still need a shield in the game.

johncmcleod · July 15, 2003, 21:48

Quote:

I have now tried impis as 30 shield 2.2.2 horseman replacements so they come with HBR but don't require horses and allowing the Zulus to build ordinary spearmen.

It seems to work well and the Zulus still build plenty of impis and use them aggressively. However they now seem to start a little more quietly and only become aggressive once their empire gets to being militarily strong (which the higher attack of the revised impi helps).

I like this change as it makes the Zulus more of a challenge as an AI civ. If you play with cultural linked starts on (I don't any more) then it may also give them a better chance against the Persians who usually wipe them out in my games.

The problem is that the impi were early warriors, the Zulu should start out with them. It shouldn't matter if the impi are too good because the Zulu start out next to some really tough neighbors, they usually do poorly because what they build (the only thing prioritized is offensive land units) and they have the 2 worst traits in the game.

How about making it a replacement for the archer? 2.1.2 30 shields.

johncmcleod · July 15, 2003, 21:52

Quote:

They are flagged as both an offensive and a defensive unit for the AI, so they can and do use them on offense.

They're not good offensive units, attack being only 1.

Quote:

2.1.2 would completely screw Egypt

War Chariots are 2.1.2, requires Horses, and is wheeled

If Impis had the same stats without the penalties (and replaces Archers, so they start with them) they would be too powerful

Well, Egypt wouldn't get screwed, industrious is the best trait in the game and some experts say that religious is the 2nd best trait.

johncmcleod · July 15, 2003, 21:55

Or, you could just make it so the Zulu don't start out with warrior code. They don't start out with the Impis right now anyway.

Mad Bomber · July 15, 2003, 22:06

As the Impi was noted for covering broken ground as well, I would mod it to 2.1.1 * All terrain as roads, 20 S and replace the archer. As mentioned by others the Zulu need the boost as their Trait combination is terrible.

johncmcleod · July 15, 2003, 22:20

Is 20 shields too cheap for a unit that uses all terrain as roads?

If a certain type of terrain is made impassible can they go on that terrain with all terrain as roads turned on?

Kaos XIII · July 15, 2003, 23:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
The impi are fine the way they are.

They are flagged as both an offensive and a defensive unit for the AI, so they can and do use them on offense.

Bring horsemen along with your impi, and you have your 2.2.2 stack.

Right ON!!!

There's nothing wrong with the Zulu. What Bamspeedy has written, is exactly how they can be used very effectively.

It's not like the Keshik, which needs much modding.

Mad Bomber · July 16, 2003, 00:39

Quote:

Right ON!!!

There's nothing wrong with the Zulu. What Bamspeedy has written, is exactly how they can be used very effectively.

It's not like the Keshik, which needs much modding.

The Zulu was an effective attacker not a defender. With an attack of a 1 the Impi is not an attacker which is not correct.

John:

You may be right about the cost; but 30 S is way overpriced, Keep in mind the Impi as 2.1.1* would NOT be able to retreat, IMO justifing its 20 S cost.

Not sure about the reference to impassible tiles, as the only options I am aware of is to make terrain impassible to wheeled units.

johncmcleod · July 16, 2003, 13:41

Quote:

As the Impi was noted for covering broken ground as well, I would mod it to 2.1.1 * All terrain as roads, 20 S and replace the archer. As mentioned by others the Zulu need the boost as their Trait combination is terrible.

Does this make the game balanced? I think I would just make it 2.1.2 because I don't think the all terrain as roads is realistic for any unit, and in real life most units can retreat from battle, so I'd give it 2.1.2 20 shields. I'd also make it a replacement for the archer, because it wouldn't seem right to have a replacement for a mounted unit not ride on anything.

Bamspeedy · July 16, 2003, 21:11

By making the impi 2.1.2 for 20 shields, you've just made horses and horsemen totally useless for the Zulu. The AI would still bee-line for horseback Riding, even though it would be useless for them. I'm betting the AI would still build a 30 shield 2.1.2 horseman instead of a 20 shield 2.1.2 impi.

In the great 'swordsman vs. horseman' debate where people debate if you should use horseman or swordsmen for early warfare, most players say they don't use the horsemen because the speed doesn't help since they need to bring along the slow spearman. With the Zulu, you CAN bring defenders along with the horseman and not be slowed down at all.

Who cares if in 'real life' the impi were more attackers than defenders. There are many things in this game that isn't perfectly 'historically accurate'. The impi as it is, can be a powerful tool if people knew how to use them.

Not only can they tag along with the horsemen (for basically a 2.2.2 stack), they are excellent pillagers. Do you know how hard it can be for an AI to dislodge your impi on the mountain that you just used to pillage their only iron (or prevent them from hooking it up in the first place)? In many cases, the impi getting to an iron twice as fast as a spearman can, makes all the difference.

Dominae · July 16, 2003, 21:49

The Impi only "suck" in the hands of the AI. As pointed out, there are very good uses for the Impi, uses which only human players can exploit.

This is true of other things as well. The AI does not use bombardment units very well. Are we to make those better so that when the AI uses them they actually do something significant? If so, how do you prevent the human player from exploiting the newly-improved Catapults, Cannons, etc.?

I agree: it sucks that the Zulu UU is not better-used by the AI. I'm a fan of the Impi! You just have to accept that the AI does not use the unit very well, and go and play MP where some human player will whoop your butt with them. Making all the units stronger just to help the AI is not the right solution.

Dominae

Rhothaerill · July 16, 2003, 23:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Dominae
The Impi only "suck" in the hands of the AI. As pointed out, there are very good uses for the Impi, uses which only human players can exploit.

This is true of other things as well. The AI does not use bombardment units very well. Are we to make those better so that when the AI uses them they actually do something significant? If so, how do you prevent the human player from exploiting the newly-improved Catapults, Cannons, etc.?

I agree: it sucks that the Zulu UU is not better-used by the AI. I'm a fan of the Impi! You just have to accept that the AI does not use the unit very well, and go and play MP where some human player will whoop your butt with them. Making all the units stronger just to help the AI is not the right solution.

Dominae

Dominae is right. I used to do extensive tweaking of units, but the AI was never able to use those tweaks as well as I did. Basically it just put more of a gap between us.

The better solution is a better AI...hmm Skynet anyone.

Mad Bomber · July 17, 2003, 04:07

Bambspeedy and Domnae:

I agree that the Impi has uses as they are, and if you like them that way then great, you simply do not have to mod them. However I do like to keep some things realistic in the game such as the role in which a unit was used. Granted the all terrain as roads is not the greatest idea; but a 2.1.2 is a good mod which puts the impi back into its proper role. In other civs UUs make other units almost useless ( would you ever see a 2.1.2 30s Celtic horseman?) so this is not a problem for me.

CerberusIV · July 17, 2003, 06:28

I changed the Impi simply because a militaristic civ without a strong attacking unit seems odd to me and unreasonable.

I also think the game benefits from a 2.2.2 30s horseman unit (wasn't the Chinese Rider originally intended to be that? Maybe that is why the Impi came out as it did).

The best thing about Civ3/PTW is that you can make these changes if you wish and it can be fun just to try these things. What I would say about the change I have made to the Impi is that it makes it easier for the AI to use the unit better.

Bamspeedy · July 18, 2003, 01:03

Quote:

would you ever see a 2.1.2 30s Celtic horseman?

If they had horses, but no iron, then of course you would see Celtic horsemen.

SpencerH · July 18, 2003, 07:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Rhothaerill

Dominae is right. I used to do extensive tweaking of units, but the AI was never able to use those tweaks as well as I did. Basically it just put more of a gap between us.

The better solution is a better AI...hmm Skynet anyone.

Exactly, but well designed mods may be much more playable on MP/PBEM. Hopefully the new XP will allow us to go crazy (as opposed to adding a few units, advances etc) and produce a human-only game.