State vs Government

problem_child · July 14, 2003, 08:49

In my opinion there's a difference between Government (democratic process, social infrastructure) and State (Military, Law-enforcement).

The Left tends to be pro-Government, the Right tends to be pro-State.

What are your thoughts on this?

connorkimbro · July 14, 2003, 08:53

at first i thought you meant a difference between the levels of government, but i see that you don't really mean that now. you might wanna clarify that, as some people here will misunderstand. . .

anyway, yes, your right. The differences between the two aren't part of any definition really, it's just the result that seems apparent when you look at the way we have divided powers in the US. The constitution gives some specific powers to State governments, and keeps some powers for itself. If you examine other countries, you will find those same powers divided up differently.

Hopefully that made sense.

Az · July 14, 2003, 09:18

BUNCH OF BULL***T. There is no difference between the government and the state. Even according your definitions, which are wrong, you can't take them apart.

This is coming from a lefty, btw.

YAY GOVERNMENT! BOO STATE!

SlowwHand · July 14, 2003, 09:27

The United States is built on State's rights, no matter what Azazel boos.
I don't particularly agree with your analogy though.

problem_child · July 14, 2003, 09:33

It's a rough analogy, I suppose the Presidents is there to resolve the clashes of interests that arise from the overlap (with Republican Presidents favouring the State and Democrat Presidents favouring Government, government being things like healthcare, education, welfare for the people as opposed to welfare for the corporations, etc.)

Az · July 14, 2003, 09:34

Quote:

Originally posted by SlowwHand
The United States is built on State's rights, no matter what Azazel boos.
I don't particularly agree with your analogy though.

a)That's not what I was talking about.
b)If it was built on states' right, why aren't you a confederate slave driver?

SlowwHand · July 14, 2003, 09:37

Hung up on that, are you?

Let me ask this. Why are there no uniform laws regarding murder and drug use?
Why don't be skip forward a couple of centuries?

Az · July 14, 2003, 09:44

why are there federal laws on issues not concerning the state then?

SlowwHand · July 14, 2003, 09:47

Exactly, Azazel. Thank you.

Az · July 14, 2003, 09:49

I meant the "federal government".

SlowwHand · July 14, 2003, 09:50

So did I.

problem_child · July 14, 2003, 10:15

Ahh, sweet confusion.

This thread is one of my 'multi-directional interesting point generators' I think.

laurentius · July 14, 2003, 10:49

Actually State vs. Gorvernment is a very complex issue. It's one of those questions that can't be given a definate answer for. Even if it has been very largely discussed in political science.

GePap · July 14, 2003, 11:33

There is a difference between "the state" and "the government": The government is transiatory, refering to either one executive's term or more likely one consitutional regime (Like in France, first republic, 2nd republic, 1st empire, 2nd, and then the monarchies, different houses, blah) the State is, well, no as transiatory. NOw, the distinction you make as far as powers are concerned is faulty: all those things fall under Government, since each government makes new policies for law enforecement and defense (offense).

As for how the left and right stand on the issue: I do think the right cares more about "the state" than the left, and presses for policvies they think will enhance or perpetuate "the state"more than the left.

Sava · July 14, 2003, 11:47

Slowwhand, you are refering to separation of powers in a federal system, I'm not sure if that is what the thread starter is talking about.

Problem_child: I believe your perception is that government has different responsibilities. The term "state" refers to two things...

1. a level of government in the federal system
2. a synonym of government

PC: is your post about how government should be organized at the federal level? if not, please elaborate.

Az · July 14, 2003, 14:24

Imran Siddiqui · July 14, 2003, 16:33

Quote:

I'm not sure if that is what the thread starter is talking about.

Well, I'm not sure the thread starter's argument is worth arguing about anyway

.

KrazyHorse · July 14, 2003, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
BUNCH OF BULL***T. There is no difference between the government and the state. Even according your definitions, which are wrong, you can't take them apart

As far as I'm concerned, the government of a nation consists of the men and women currently charged with running it. The State is the institutionalised form of this government and its enforcement apparatus.

KrazyHorse · July 14, 2003, 16:37

In other words, governments come and go. The State remains.

GePap · July 14, 2003, 16:40

Yup: think of it like this "The state of Rome went from a Republican government to a Imeprial government, but was still Rome".

Az · July 14, 2003, 16:47

I don't agree.

GePap · July 14, 2003, 16:50

Too bad

Az · July 14, 2003, 16:52

I am sorry, guys, but I suddenly realized that I am not interested in that particular debate, just wanted to point out that "the state" isn't some sort of evil monstrocity, while the "government" isn't some hunky dory establishment.

You're right, You win the debate.

KrazyHorse · July 14, 2003, 16:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Azazel
I don't agree.

Then why do we in Canada have a different Head of State than we do Head of Government?

chequita guevara · July 14, 2003, 22:02

KrazyHorse is correct.

Kuciwalker · July 14, 2003, 22:11

"State" can also sometimes refer to an entire nation, government, military, and all, whereas people may use "government" to refer specifically to people who work for the state and aren't military (I wouldn't really call a grunt in the Army part of the "government"). Apart from that optional distinction, they mean the same thing.

chequita guevara · July 14, 2003, 22:13

The government makes the rules. The state carries them out.

St Leo · July 14, 2003, 23:58

Quote:

Originally posted by GePap
As for how the left and right stand on the issue: I do think the right cares more about "the state" than the left, and presses for policvies they think will enhance or perpetuate "the state"more than the left.

Unfortunately, they don't in Canada. Normal people are much more patriotic than right-wingers up here.

KrazyHorse · July 15, 2003, 00:02

Right-wingers here are big flag-wavers, but when you get right down to it you realise they wish they'd been born a couple hundred miles to the south...

Asher · July 15, 2003, 00:07

Am I a flag waver?