Conscription

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
When you take from me and I already have less, that's tyranny. If you have more and I take ...

I'd still have less.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
No. If you want more, go out and work for it, just like I did. If you can't be arsed to, then don't come take mine just because of that. That's called STEALING.

-=Vel=-

I've probably worked 10 times as hard as you. For all I know you got your money scamming little old ladies for their Social Security check.

[Velociryx]

Doesn't matter, DD....you're a capitalist pigdog. Your part of the equation is to be taken from. Beyond that, you don't count!

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'd still have less.

Sure. Just like if I do all the work and you get profit from my labor that's fair trade.

[Velociryx]

And you'll prolly hear it ten more times if our discussion continues along these lines. I WORK for my money. Lots of folks do. In fact, the vast majority of people in this country do.

ANY scheme you put in motion to come take from the aforementioned workin' folks just to make yourself a little better off is....big surprise coming here....going to be greeted with hostility! Shocking, I know, but true!

The remedy is exactly what I've been saying all along. Want more? Earn it. Come try to take mine, I'll greet you at the door, gun-in-hand....

People are not equal. Outcomes aren't equal. It's the way the world works. In this country, we try to ensure that everybody has opportunities, however. We could do better in that regard, and we will improve. But people will never be equal. Nor will outcomes. That's a pipe dream.

-=Vel=-

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Just like if I do all the work and you get profit from my labor that's fair trade.

Don't work then if you feel that you get paid enough.

[Velociryx]

Amen, DD....but of course, he's got a worn-out comeback for that....stay tuned...:yawn:

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Don't work then if you feel that you get paid enough.

You might have that option if you own enough property, but not me.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And you'll prolly hear it ten more times if our discussion continues along these lines. I WORK for my money. Lots of folks do. In fact, the vast majority of people in this country do.

Then you aren't rich. Rich people don't work for their money. They exploit people for it.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You might have that option if you own enough property, but not me.

Then get a better job. Whining over your pay annoys only serves to annoy people.

[Velociryx]

Yes...by creating jobs that those poor exploited people would otherwise not have had. Those B@startd!

-=Vel=-

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Then get a better job. Whining over your pay annoys only serves to annoy people.

I don't even have a job right now jerk. Get a reality check.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Yes...by creating jobs that those poor exploited people would otherwise not have had. Those B@startd!

-=Vel=-

I know a better way.

[Velociryx]

I'm sure you think you do. Come in, guns blazing, leaving a trail of capitalist pigdogs dead or freezing to death in your own little disneyland gulag. Take, take, take until you have destroyed a vast portion of the wealth in this country and re-distributed the rest to your buddies.

I think I'll pass tho....

-=Vel=-

[Kramerman]

Im more talented than a lot of people, at a lot of things. A lot of people are more talented than me at a lot of things. I work harder than most people. A lot of people work harder than me.

Here is the equation of our society, and i like it

(Work)*(Talent) + luck = Money

If you have a lot of talent in something, but put in zero work into benefiting from it, you get zero dollars (unless your really lucky and something falls in your lap). If you dont have a lot of talent, but work really, really hard at it, then you should make a lot of money, and vice versa if you have a lot of talent but dont work too hard. Some of the most successful people in our society not only have a lot of talent, but have worked very hard with it and had a lot of luck (being at the right place at the right time, etc).

Every person with determination can make it to a comfortable life in our society, im living proof of that ( i dont wanna get into my life story...). And its my belief, tho some over all are more talented than others, evryone has some natural ability in something (except heavily retarded people or other disadvanteged people, who we DO(!) help thru social institutions) and can be quite successful if they work at it. And some people can be very successful at things they have no natrual talent, in, by sheer hard work.

Gotta do lundry, more on this later

Kman

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Get a reality check.

Get a pay check!

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Get a pay check!

I'm more confident that I will get my share than I am that you will get a reality check.

[Kidicious]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Gotta do lundry, more on this later

I can hardly wait to hear more fairy tales.

[Velociryx]

Oh that's right...we're not allowed to talk about individual successes. It's the "whole group" that matters.

Tell you what....bring the "whole group" over in the morning to cook breakfast for me....cos, you know, I'm a nice guy. I obviously deserve it. OTHER people have folks come over to cook breakfast for me, and I want an equal outcome!

I'll leave the light on....

-=Vel=-

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Kramerman
Every person with determination can make it to a comfortable life in our society, im living proof of that ( i dont wanna get into my life story...). And its my belief, tho some over all are more talented than others, evryone has some natural ability in something (except heavily retarded people or other disadvanteged people, who we DO(!) help thru social institutions) and can be quite successful if they work at it. And some people can be very successful at things they have no natrual talent, in, by sheer hard work.

I knew plenty of people in Austin at the height of the tech boom who had two (sometimes even three) jobs and were struggling to keep the lights on and eat enough. They were working plenty hard, but had squat. Why? Because squat is what managers were offering for thinly skilled labor. Hard work doesn't mean **** in the contemporary US.

Hell, even talent and hard work isn't even a sure thing anymore. I know plenty of people, who back during the tech boom in Austin, had fairly lucrative tech jobs. They worked hard and knew their stuff. Now they're delivering pizzas or working at Borders (if they are lucky). Not only is this a waste of these people's skills, it means they don't have money to buy things - thereby further stagnating the economy. Moreover, it tells students not to study things like engineering or science and instead do something less helpful - like business school. Because was always need more middle-managers, right?

As soon as "our system", or neoliberalism, or capitalism, or whatever you want to call it can assure that people with technical skills are using those skills to innovate as opposed to delivering pizzas (and making people even more obese) give me a call. Until then, wake the **** up.

[Velociryx]

Templar....but that's just the point. They CAN'T make efficient use of their skills because "the people" don't need that many tech-heads. That's why there's not enough tech-head jobs out there, which in turn is why those talented people are delivering pizza (which is, apparently, a skill that WAS needed....moreso than the fifty thousandth tech-head).

You can't MAKE people need something. What? Do you want to prop up demand for tech-head artificially just so these folks have something to do? Is it not better to have those people acquire new skills that ARE needed? I mean, I have a great job right now, but if I lost it tomorrow, I'd go where the work was, both in terms of physical location and skill set. Wouldn't bother me a bit. Why should it?

-=Vel=-

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Kidicious


I can hardly wait to hear more fairy tales.

what fairy tales? All sides of my family were poor immigrants to America at some point. Within one generation all sides of my family had themselves established.

There was a lot of tough luck with my mother, and her socio-economic status fell terriblly, after trying to raise two young boys on her own. After a decade she was firmly reestablished in the middle class, on her OWN merit. Thats the key word right there. We are a society based ideally on MERIT (tho it doesnt always turn out this way), not handouts. That is why we are so succesful.

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by The Templar
I knew plenty of people in Austin at the height of the tech boom who had two (sometimes even three) jobs and were struggling to keep the lights on and eat enough.

I know lost of people in austin at this time too (living in the area as i do). Why were some of them delivering pizzas? because of the luck side of equation... their poor luck (interpreted as 'negative' luck) cancled out any gain of their skills and hard work. My point is, they were victims of circumstance. The job market in the Austin area was flooded with these types of jobs... nothin much you can do about it, except try and find a place where your skills are in demand and move there (this can be tough tho). tough luck.

HOWEVER! these people WERE able to get by. Yes, they were WAY overqualified for delivering pizzas and driving cabs, but they did have jobs and were able to make a living thru hard work. And times look up, they'll find oppertunities in the future where they can take advantage of their education.

This is all just common sense to me. There are good times and there are bad times. As human beings, we have to deal with it

[The Templar]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Templar....but that's just the point. They CAN'T make efficient use of their skills because "the people" don't need that many tech-heads. That's why there's not enough tech-head jobs out there, which in turn is why those talented people are delivering pizza (which is, apparently, a skill that WAS needed....moreso than the fifty thousandth tech-head).

Yes, yes. The market sent a signal that tech people were needed via good salaries. Based on these signals, people invested time and money in gaining skills. Skills like chemical engineering, electrical/computer engineering, mathematics, comp sci, and physics. But these are human beings - you can't expect them to stop on a dime, do a one-eighty, and do something new.

Perhaps resourses should be diverted from CEO and executive salaries and directed towards scientific, artistic, and humanistic endeavors? I think we can always use improved medicine, better computers, more art, a space program, or even obesity-proof pizza for hopeful muscians to deliver.

But I guess that would require a social zeitgeist that emphasized practical achievement and mastery of skills over people making money.

You can't MAKE people need something.

Isn't that what advertising is about?

But seriously, couldn't former engineers be doing more to advance humanity if funded than selling crap like at Borders?

Do you want to prop up demand for tech-head artificially just so these folks have something to do?

There is tons of research to be done and discoveries to be made. Capitalism just doesn't foster the right motivations to emphasize doing this.

I mean, I have a great job right now, but if I lost it tomorrow, I'd go where the work was, both in terms of physical location and skill set. Wouldn't bother me a bit. Why should it?

-=Vel=-

Hopefully, I will never have to live in the South again (I'll make an exception for New Orleans - but there aren't many jobs there). See, that's the problem. Too many people willing to move to get the work. This prevents the formation of stable communities and instead creates endless sprawls of suburbs were nomadic professionals never really know their neighbors.

I would prefer a system that allows me to help build and grow within a community. A system that both allows and encourages me to pursue and hone an area of expertise, live comfortably, and not have to worry about making a buck or managing a retirement fund. These distract from my work - they waste my time. Moreover, they rob the community of my work by wasting my time.

[Kramerman]

As soon as "our system", or neoliberalism, or capitalism, or whatever you want to call it can assure that people with technical skills are using those skills to innovate as opposed to delivering pizzas (and making people even more obese) give me a call. Until then, wake the **** up.

The reason why some techies werent being used to their full advantage wa because THE JOBS WERE FILLED! THOUSANDS already had their jobs, and thru the incentive system of capitalism, innnovation is constantly being made in business and industry. Tough luck to thse people, but businesses can only afford to expand and hire so many people, so fast. If we were in a communism, their talents would truly be going to waste

[Kramerman]

There is tons of research to be done and discoveries to be made. Capitalism just doesn't foster the right motivations to emphasize doing this.

And i suppose communism does? no system is perfect but capitalism is better than most, especially with a nice dose of socialism to help out the disadvantaged and to cancel out the 'bad luck' factor in my equation, if the luck is bad (negative).

[Kramerman]

Hopefully, I will never have to live in the South again (I'll make an exception for New Orleans - but there aren't many jobs there). See, that's the problem. Too many people willing to move to get the work. This prevents the formation of stable communities and instead creates endless sprawls of suburbs were nomadic professionals never really know their neighbors.

uh huh... these are gross generalizations. A LOT of people enjoy life long relations with a company and neighborhood. My late great uncle, for example, was an orphan who gre up and eventually bought a place on main street where he opened a barber shop. He was there for 42 years, until he died. He lived in the same house (a few blocks away, he walked to work every morning) where he raised a family and died in.

Im not saying everyone is like this, but no more people just move about than people who dont. And even if peope do move a lot, it doesnt mean the communities they come to are disfunctional in anyway. I and a lot of other college stidents just moved to new dorms. We knew no one when we got here, but within weeks the area has become a close-knit community. granted its not as close knit than it would be if it ad been there or decades, but for most people, that is not a priority! making a living so my family can live with a good standard of living is my priority. going into the military, obviously ill be moving around a lot. I grew up briefly in a military family, and we moved a lot. I'm fine without this elusive' 'sense' of community.

I would prefer a system that allows me to help build and grow within a community. A system that both allows and encourages me to pursue and hone an area of expertise, live comfortably, and not have to worry about making a buck or managing a retirement fund. These distract from my work - they waste my time. Moreover, they rob the community of my work by wasting my time.

hmm... Templar... if you did not have to worry about making that buck, my friend, you WOULD NOT WORK NEARLY AS HARD! its that necessity of making a buck that drives people to work HARD. its called incentive, without it, you, me, Vel, Kid, and most everyone except fantically passionate people for the state would slack off as much as possible. this would make the system terriblly inefficient, thus you have the crap states of vietnam, NK, cuba, and the collapse of the soviet union. Even china, with an ever increasing bastard system of communism is not nearly anywhere as efficient as your Germany ( very socialist, granted), Japan, USA, etc

[Velociryx]

There is tons of research to be done and discoveries to be made. Capitalism just doesn't foster the right motivations to emphasize doing this.

The problem here is evidence is not on your side.

Capitalist-oriented nations have been innovating relentlessly. 'bout the only innovation we've seen in communist utopias came by pointing a gun at the researcher or his family and mandating that he create, and, while that IS a perfectly valid motivational tool, I hardly think it better than the system we operate under here.

-=Vel=-

[Kramerman]

edited my previous post heavily.

The problem here is evidence is not on your side.

Capitalist-oriented nations have been innovating relentlessly. 'bout the only innovation we've seen in communist utopias came by pointing a gun at the researcher or his family and mandating that he create, and, while that IS a perfectly valid motivational tool, I hardly think it better than the system we operate under here.

exactly

[Kramerman]

I saw a very interesting program on how the Soviet Union stole the B-29 super fortress design so they could make a long range strategic bomber, which they lacked. Basically, Stalin got this guy and was like, "you got 2 years to copy this...". The designer knew exactly what the consequences would be. He did it, but it was very hard because the B-29 was so advanced and sophisticated. He completed the soviet version of the B-29, but many people on his team couldnt take the pressure, and comitted suicide

I dont recall anybody in the USA that commited suicide while developing the original B-29, which did take them longer than 2 years, yeah, but again they were building it from scrap and not copying it.