Conscription - Page 4

Kramerman · July 16, 2003, 00:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Ming
Whose to say whether it's necessary or not. Having a standing army available might be considered necessary by some people.

Frankly... I think all young men and women should have a mandatory 1 or 2 year service to their country... whether it's in the military or communty service... It would teach them that freedom doesn't come for free, and that EVERYBODY needs to do their share. Many people have died so that we can enjoy the freedoms that we do have...

I say the exact same thing to my friends... they call me a fascist zionist(?... i guess cause israel does somethn similar). Actually, my idea is a little different, but basically this. You should read Star Ship Troopers (the book is COMPLETELY different from the movie, much more political and philosophical), it goes into detail a government that works kinda like this.

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 00:57

Quote:

If people aren't willing to defend the nation, why should the nation exist?

Further, the two times the US has been invaded, there have been plenty of volunteers (Revolution, War of 1812).

Yup, is a country really worth fighting for if people won't even volunteer? Nope. When we have been invaded, people did volunteer.

Quote:

I don't count the Civil War, which was really caused by the US anyway.

Interesting how both sides used a draft to wage that war, huh?
Kind of exposes the nature of drafts...

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 00:57

Quote:

Whether you like it or not... the constitution does allow the government to pass laws. And while the government would never pass a law saying you have to wear a pink tutu... it can pass laws that say you must pay taxes or can be conscripted.

Certainly the Constitution allows Congress to pass laws, but even Imran will agree that the Constitution doesn't allow the government to pass *any* law.

Quote:

Yes... and the current laws have been deemed ok according to the constitution... your point?

Various laws throughout US history have been deemed OK by SCOTUS, when clearly they are wrong.

Quote:

And as far as moral goes... again, only YOUR opinion, so that doesn't make it a fact... just your opinion.

Are you a moral relativist, or do you believe in certain absolutes? Serious question.

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 00:58

Quote:

Interesting how both sides used a draft to wage that war, huh?
Kind of exposes the nature of drafts...

Yes, and I'll also point out that just because I say the US was at fault in causing the Civil War doesn't mean I think the CSA was behaving very morally, either.

Kramerman · July 16, 2003, 00:58

Quote:

Are you a moral relativist, or do you believe in certain absolutes? Serious question.

If he is a moral relativist, hes not when it comes to the rules of this site (i would know).

despite your culture, the rules are rules

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:00

Quote:

Hes a moral relativist,

I'll let Ming answer. I'm not going to debate Ming's position with anyone other than Ming

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:02

Btw, I haven't seen anyone refute David's claim that the draft is immoral. People have only argued it is less immoral that the possible consequences...

Kramerman · July 16, 2003, 01:03

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd

I'll let Ming answer. I'm not going to debate Ming's position with anyone other than Ming

yeah, i didnt mean to say that, i edited it and said what i meant to

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:03

I believe in certain absolutes when it comes to morality... But conscription doesn't fall on my immoral list

And yes, I don't feel that ANY law can be passed (and that's why your red tutu law is still just a straw man)

But laws that have been passed and are considered constitutional at the time are the law, and must be followed, or you must except the results of ignorning them. Again... if you disagree with a law, fine... but you are expected to follow it... or choose other courses of action... like leaving the country or trying to fight them in legal fashions.

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Berzerker
Btw, I haven't seen anyone refute David's claim that the draft is immoral. People have only argued it is less immoral that the possible consequences...

Uhhh... you can't refute personal opinions. I feel it isn't immoral. I give my reasons... and he gave his. He thinks he's right... I think I'm right. again... just opinion, and not facts.

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:06

Quote:

Yes, and I'll also point out that just because I say the US was at fault in causing the Civil War doesn't mean I think the CSA was behaving very morally, either.

True, and there wouldn't have been a war without drafts. But some people think killing off 600,000 people to end slavery was justified. Just how their position would change if it was their family members being killed is another, interesting question.

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:07

Quote:

I believe in certain absolutes when it comes to morality...

Excellent, I agree. What absolutes do you believe in?

Quote:

And yes, I don't feel that ANY law can be passed

Excellent. Presumably, you agree that Congress can't pass a law that is against the Constitution.

Let me ask you this, then. Can a law be unconstitutional, even if SCOTUS says it isn't? Take an extreme example - if Congress passes a law banning the Muslim religion, and SCOTUS allows it, is it really Constitutional?

Quote:

But laws that have been passed and are considered constitutional at the time are the law, and must be followed,

What about laws that violate a moral absolute, which you have agreed exist?

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:08

Quote:

Uhhh... you can't refute personal opinions. I feel it isn't immoral. I give my reasons... and he gave his. He thinks he's right... I think I'm right. again... just opinion, and not facts.

And it'll remain as such until we find out what you believe are moral absolutes.

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:12

First... this thread is about conscription...

And the Country has had it in the past... and it was deemed constitutional... and it doesn't violate any moral absolute that I have... So your questions are just not relevent to me on this topic.

But as far as absolutes... murder (and I don't consider self defense murder) rape... slavery (and I don't consider conscription slavery)... racism... just a few off the top of my head.

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:13

Quote:

Uhhh... you can't refute personal opinions. I feel it isn't immoral. I give my reasons... and he gave his. He thinks he's right... I think I'm right. again... just opinion, and not facts.

So, at the risk of being uninvited for future golf outings

, do you believe it is moral to force others to die for your security?
If someone is trying to murder me, can I morally force you to leave your family and stand guard outside my home?

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:16

I believe the first time a draft was enacted was the US Civil War, but I certainly wouldn't point to Abraham Lincoln as a defender of the Constitution.

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:18

Berz... I always seperate politics from friendship... so no worry on the golf

As to your question... I was in the lottery for the draft for Viet Nam... I didn't get selected, but I would have gone. I would have taken the risk to die for somebody else's security. I have no problem with the youth of today taking the same risk I would have. I don't see it as an issue of being moral or not. It my mind, it's a contract between you and the government.

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:22

Quote:

First... this thread is about conscription...

It's about the morality of conscription.

Quote:

And the Country has had it in the past... and it was deemed constitutional...

The original case here is Arver v US. This decision was pretty much made in an era of war fervor, that was made even more evident by a case called Schenk v US. Basically, SCOTUS upheld a number of laws preventing the criticism of war, criticising Conscription, even criticising the government, and rejected a challenge to conscription. Anyone who points to these decisions and claims they are a result of ANYTHING other than nationalism/patriotism and war fervor are basically wrong.

Quote:

But as far as absolutes... murder (and I don't consider self defense murder) rape... slavery (and I don't consider conscription slavery)... racism... just a few off the top of my head.

OK, those are absolutes, and I agree that these are always wrong. Now, WHY are they always wrong? What do they all have in common?

The common denominators are individual liberty, and the right to life, wouldn't you agree?

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:23

Quote:

I would have taken the risk to die for somebody else's security. I have no problem with the youth of today taking the same risk I would have.

If this is true, why didn't you volunteer?

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:26

Yep... but the difference is, I don't see it as a loss of personal freedom. I see it as a contract between country and citizen. It is a choice you agree to make by being a citizen. If you don't agree, you can change your citizenship to somewhere else... your choice... your individual freedom...

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:27

Quote:

Yep... but the difference is, I don't see it as a loss of personal freedom. I see it as a contract between country and citizen.

And you still haven't justified the existence of such a contract. It certainly didn't exist at the beginning, so where did it come from? Did the government just make it up?

Furthermore, saying that being forced to join the military isn't a loss of personal freedom is ridiculous. It ignores the definition of several words, most notably "force" and "freedom".

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:29

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd
If this is true, why didn't you volunteer?

I took my chance by being in the lottery... I signed up, and didn't get called. I was lucky. And that's the way it was back then. I lived up to my contract with the US government.

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:29

Thank God you lucked out like my older brother.

Leaving aside the fact you might have died, for no one's security except possibly for the S Vietnamese, the fact you would have gone doesn't mean forcing you to go would have been moral. I can certainly risk my life to save another person, but that doesn't mean it's moral for me to force you to give up your life. But people don't sign this contract, it's imposed upon them by others, often by people who will avoid the same contract when it's their turn to go.

Quote:

Berz... I always seperate politics from friendship... so no worry on the golf

Whew, you didn't seem like the type to hold a grudge over such mundane matters.

But I did see the pleasure you got banning people.

Ben Kenobi · July 16, 2003, 01:30

Quote:

It is a choice you agree to make by being a citizen.

Most are born to their citizenship, so how can this be a choice?

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:30

Quote:

I took my chance by being in the lottery... I signed up, and didn't get called. I was lucky. And that's the way it was back then. I lived up to my contract with the US government.

Sure, but if you were so willing to go fight, then you should have volunteered and taken the place of someone not so willing.

David Floyd · July 16, 2003, 01:31

By the way, if anyone thinks that Daniel Webster is an authority on the Constitution, check out this link:

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul32.html

Regardless of the URL, it's an actual speech by Webster posted in its entirety, not some analysis of Webster's unstated thoughts.

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:33

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd
And you still haven't justified the existence of such a contract. It certainly didn't exist at the beginning, so where did it come from? Did the government just make it up?

No... they didn't "make it up"... they passed a LAW. And from that point on, it is a contract. Again... laws have changed since the beginning... and that's life.

Quote:

Furthermore, saying that being forced to join the military isn't a loss of personal freedom is ridiculous. It ignores the definition of several words, most notably "force" and "freedom".

No... it isn't ridiculous. You aren't being FORCED. You have a CHOICE... the FREEDOM TO SAY, I'm not going... and you can face the penality, or leave the country.

Again... as a citizen, you must follow the rules. But you always have the freedom to go someplace where you can find what you are looking for.

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:33

Hey David, when were those cases? Were they during the Civil War or before (or after)?

Berzerker · July 16, 2003, 01:35

Quote:

Again... as a citizen, you must follow the rules.

Ming · July 16, 2003, 01:37

Quote:

Originally posted by David Floyd
Sure, but if you were so willing to go fight, then you should have volunteered and taken the place of someone not so willing.

I never said I was "willing to fight"... I said I lived up to my commitment to the state. If I had been called, I would have... but I wasn't. I lived up to my contract with the state...

Remember... nothing is forcing you to be a citizen of the US... you have the Freedom to renounce that citizenship if you don't want to live up to what it means by being an American.